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PBW & the Chemistry of Clean

Discussion in 'Glass' started by t-dub, Dec 8, 2012.

  1. MinnBobber

    MinnBobber Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,997
    ............................................
    White line really happens much more for those that pour PBW into piece, add hot water, etc.
    Far better to mix externally where you heat up distilled water to very very hot and then add/stir PBW with the thought that less is better. Less PBW to not over-saturate the water and less time soak. Better to do an extra soak cycle than overdue time and concentration on one cycle.
    And like others said, totally filling also helps avoid a line (like a bathtub ring).

    An alternatibe is : I tend to fill 90% and CAREFULLY gently shake the piece to keep liquid moving and scrubbing. Usually 5 minutes does the trick. PBW mix is VERY SLIPPERY so use a wash cloth etc to securely hold the piece. No broken bubblers here please!!!

    EDIT- I always use distilled water so there are no other minerals, like in tap water!! Nothing but pure water and PBW
     
  2. t-dub

    t-dub Vapor Sloth

    Messages:
    7,249
    Location:
    Oregon
    I believe someone in this thread a while back said CLR got rid of their white line but I can't remember who it was. The quality of the glass may have an impact as well. Chinese glass is not borosilicate.
     
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  3. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    16,834
    Location:
    Left Coast
    Sounds like that's a useful fix for the problem then? Again, I'd wash it after in PBW or similar, drinking CLR (even by accident, in small amounts) is best avoided.

    While folks should indeed test for troubles, I suspect such mild acids as Citric or PBW are not aggressive enough to attack even 'cheap glass'. That usually takes some truly stout stuff like HF.

    The 'fact' (if indeed it is one....) that CLR attacks the deposits points back at condensed out (participated) salts at 'the tide line'. Since they got there by being no longer soluble when they deposit, dissolving them again is going to be a problem. Hard water deposits kinda stuff?

    Anyway, if someone can find such a report, or try it and report back, this issue should be resolved?

    OF
     
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  4. Vitolo

    Vitolo Vaporist

    Messages:
    8,077
    Location:
    The Vapor Trail
    I have also gone in with long and unusually tweaked pipe cleaners, and fished out strands of moldy substance, as it sticks well to the pipe cleaner fuzz.
     
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  5. Stu

    Stu Maconheiro Staff Member

    Messages:
    7,915
    Location:
    Southeast of Disorder
    Well, the Chinese glass that I've tested is actually boro, so I'm not sure where you are getting that from, t-dub. :shrug:

    :peace:
     
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  6. t-dub

    t-dub Vapor Sloth

    Messages:
    7,249
    Location:
    Oregon
    Point taken but I have seen Chinese glass that looks like window glass.
     
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  7. Hogni

    Hogni Honi soit qui mal y pense

    Messages:
    423
    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    Acid? Think PBW is alkaline?

    Cant believe that such mild stuff should damage glass after some short use for a few minutes. Guess its more a precipitation of minerals/anorganic stuff?

    Acid is working against anorganic stuff. Alcaline against organic ones. If you get 'white lines' or another cloudy film with PBW give an afterwash with citric (5%) a try. Should work if cause of cloudiness is not a sustainable damage of glass.
     
    t-dub, OF and OldNewbie like this.
  8. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    16,834
    Location:
    Left Coast
    Yep, one is acidic, the other alkaline, which is why I put an 'or' in there. If they were say both acids it would be 'and'? I agree all common glasses should do just fine at such 'household levels'. Even a more extreme I'd think.

    Yes, I too think the nasty white line described is mineral in nature which is why I suggested CLR (which is Citric acid based IIRC and designed to attack Calcium, Lime and Rust (hence the name). By making such deposits more soluble in the wash solution, the deposits are made to once again dissolve and go elsewhere when we rinse.

    OF
     
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2016
    OldNewbie, MoltenTiger, Hogni and 5 others like this.
  9. Hogni

    Hogni Honi soit qui mal y pense

    Messages:
    423
    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    OF, your are right. Pardon for misunderstanding.
     
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  10. OF

    OF Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    16,834
    Location:
    Left Coast
    Not to worry, this here internet is confusing enough when you can't see the other fellow but to add a couple of random languages into the mix........

    You are not the first guy to point out that I confuse folks with some regularity. You're in good company.

    The key here is we seem to have a fix for the 'white line' problem I've never actually seen.

    Thanks for the post, best wishes.

    OF
     
  11. mandelbrod

    mandelbrod Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    33
    the PBW arived today and i went on cleaning at once. Here is a "before" pic to show in how bad of a state the piece was in. [​IMG]
    i had to do 4 washes to get it this clean but it was hasslefree! just put it in your glass with some near boiling water and just wait [​IMG]
    Compared to salt and alcohol I would say this is way easier, safer, faster... just better!
    If you have glass and havent used this, order some, it will not disapoint. :science:

    Also @OF good tip using it in the washing machine, its like new :clap:

    Modnote: Edited to fix image links
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 18, 2016
  12. MoltenTiger

    MoltenTiger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    863
    Location:
    Down under the land down under
    It took me 45 minutes and about 7 washes, but I got it done.
    I was planning on taking pics of my foe, it was effectively a big old chunk of slime trapped between lace discs. I wanted the fucker out as priority number one. So yeah, no pics unfortunately.

    PBW works so well though, I am giving up RezBlock. Clear water looks nicer, and I never want mold growing in unreachable places ever again !

    The PBW didn't quite do what I was hoping, the gunk still remained a solid chunk, although it was noticeably slowly eroding in the solution, it became weaker and slimier. Eventually I could blast it out by blowing through the piece and plugging the joint periodically (building up copious back pressure).

    I'm so happy though, I will be taking better care from now on.

    After using so much PBW, then rinsing, the glass felt tacky, although dry (probably also due to my hands being stripped of oils). There was noticeable white residue forming, like with an alcohol/salt mixture. I gave it a good rinse with a specialised eucalyptus extract bong cleaner to bring back a bit of sheen to the glass and to make sure there was nothing left internally to adhere anywhere.

    I don't think it could be cleaner.
     
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  13. t-dub

    t-dub Vapor Sloth

    Messages:
    7,249
    Location:
    Oregon
    A couple reasons why you should. First, Rezblock is prohibitively expensive when cranberry extract from BC or NACE is much, much less expensive. Second, if you want to prevent growth you can simply add a little citric acid to your solution and you will be happy. Either way congrats on your PBW experience. I love hearing people have sucess with my idea.

    More on cranberry extract and citric acid here:

    http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/rezblock-cranberry-extract.8060/

    I wish to point out that this was MY idea originally.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 19, 2016
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  14. MoltenTiger

    MoltenTiger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    863
    Location:
    Down under the land down under
    BC/NACE are the same as RezBlock but cheaper for sure, they also have a bit of citric acid to last in the bottle too.

    I accidently left my glass full of water for the best part of a week, and there was substantial mold growth. Only a tiny bit got stuck though.

    But, in terms of use - you still need a cleaning agent after using cranberry extract, so why bother at all?

    Nonetheless I appreciate your ideas! I'll just be sticking to fresh water daily and a hot wash with PBW every few
     
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  15. t-dub

    t-dub Vapor Sloth

    Messages:
    7,249
    Location:
    Oregon
    Yes, generally, however I think the concentration of actives favors the extracts. The flaw I found in their product is that they don't include enough citric acid to help keep the growth down in your glass.
    Thats the proanthocyanidins at work. Why does cranberry clean up urinary tract infections? It doesn't harm the infection at all. What they do is provide a bio-slipperiness that the "bad guys" can't hang on to and they get flushed away. Its this same action that prevents resin from sticking to your glass.
    Because . . . the cranberry extract prevents resin from sticking to your glass in the first place and it deodorizes your vaping fluid so it performs better, longer. It also enhances bubble stacking. Using proper sanitation techniques and frequent fluid changes in your glass, depending on use, combined with PBW, you can go longer between cleanings, save product, which is better than letting your glass get dirty then trying to clean it. You will use much less chemical, and have a much easier clean following this method. Sure you can let your glass get dirty and stink, but why when we have a better way imho?

    Either way, the most important thing is that you are satisfied with the results. Follow you bliss and please report back with your results . . . :peace:
     
    Last edited: Oct 19, 2016
  16. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,733
    Thanks @t-dub - as you may remember, I did find a good deal on NACE and bought a package of four small dropper bottles. But, like Molten, I left it in for a couple of days too long and had a nice black furry science experiment growing in a glass piece. PBW got it out, but not without some work and agitation.

    I've been hesitant to use the NACE since although perhaps I'm just being a bit silly. Perhaps I will try it again but dump the water after use/daily.
     
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  17. MoltenTiger

    MoltenTiger Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    863
    Location:
    Down under the land down under
    First and foremost, continual appreciation for the technicalities you so effortlessly list off :)

    But with this point, I think it's more aptly put that cranberry extract merely reduces resin build up. At least in my experience, I've never successfully prevented resin build up with RezBlock. And of course anything upstream still adheres as per normal. Which revolves around my points that if you're already doing this:

    Then, if those fluid changes were just plain water, would you actually use less PBW to clean the piece?

    I used such a tiny amount of PBW cleaning my other piece that I had been using without RezBlock for a few days (3 or 4 water changes, was on the move).

    I somewhat understand the principles at work, and it makes sense that technically you would have to clean less frequently using RezBlock. However in practice, I doubt I would be - my joint is the first thing to discolour with resin build up, normally I'd rely on hot water to rinse it off. Now that happens with chemical catalysis, it will take me less time to deal with, and actually become clean. I'll still be cleaning at the same frequency, but with more efficiency and negligible use of chemicals (I have to pay drinking tax on my IPA, PBW is thus relatively free and I assume requires less molality).

    So it seems wasteful (unnecessary at least) for me to replace my RezBlock, or even bother to use the rest of the bottle. The cost would far exceed a slight increase in PBW use.

    Of course, my opinion is prone to changing now I have access to my full glass range, my SoL does like to trap particulates and condense oils into precipitate, seemingly more rapidly than other pieces with more basic percolators.
    I guess I'll find out in due time what works for me, but after witnessing resilient resin on the wall of my beaker wash away with such little effort, I just don't see good purpose for continual use of a cranberry extract when I'm only vaping flowers.
     
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  18. t-dub

    t-dub Vapor Sloth

    Messages:
    7,249
    Location:
    Oregon
    Yes its not 100%, and it only works where the glass gets wet. I used to do an empty pull to splash the liquid around to coat areas with the product before vaping.
    Everyone is different and glass pieces are different so, like I said before, do what works for you and makes you happy.

    :) :peace:
     
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  19. aj0125

    aj0125 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    281
    Location:
    Portland, Oregon
    Anyone use PBW to clean their Mighty parts? Did a quick search and didn't find anything but I suck at it. Want to try PBW because ISO takes too long and I don't care about the reclaim. Works great with EVO ELB's but I am hesitant to try it on the Mighty parts due to them being plastic, does that matter?
     
  20. t-dub

    t-dub Vapor Sloth

    Messages:
    7,249
    Location:
    Oregon
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  21. Maitri

    Maitri Deadhead, Low-Temp Dabber, Mahayana Buddhist

    Messages:
    252
    Location:
    Just east of the Emerald City
    Yup, I do. I soak my glass along with my Mighty CU in 185℃ ±0.1° water with PBW for an hour. Everything always comes out looking brand new. It is so simple and effective. :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2016
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  22. Episode666

    Episode666 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    121
    Is this a typo? Water boils around 100°C under atmospheric pressure, maybe you meant 185°F = 85°C?

    Please tell me you use some sort of huge pressure cooker precise to a tenth of a degree, that would be amazing.
     
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  23. Maitri

    Maitri Deadhead, Low-Temp Dabber, Mahayana Buddhist

    Messages:
    252
    Location:
    Just east of the Emerald City
    He
    Heh, yes. Of course I meant Fahrenheit - and I cook, er, um, I mean clean my tools using a Classic Nomiku.
     
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  24. Episode666

    Episode666 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    121
    That's pretty clever. Do you feel like the black gunk and the PBW affects your sous-vide thingy?
     
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  25. Maitri

    Maitri Deadhead, Low-Temp Dabber, Mahayana Buddhist

    Messages:
    252
    Location:
    Just east of the Emerald City
    Great question - and the answer is no. I do a water bath within a water bath. The water circulator goes in the outer water bath and my dirty glass goes in its inner counterpart, which prevents the gunk from ever reaching the circulator. Make sense? :)
     

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