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Long term effects from pesticides & chemicals in street weed?

Discussion in 'Medical Discussion' started by Dopeboi, Jan 9, 2013.

  1. Snake Plissken

    Snake Plissken Transcendentalist

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    I believe there are real long term 'concerns'. The truth is, we don't know the long term consequences of smoking/vaping certain poisons.

    Even beyond the expected pesticides, one of the biggest concerns is pgr's (plant growth regulators). They are only supposed to be used on nonfood crops. Most either shorten growing time or add bulk. The most commonly used pgr's are paclobutrazol, chlormequat chloride and daminozide.

    Paclobutrazol
    IUPAC name: (2S,3S)-1-(4-chlorophenyl)-4,4-dimethyl-2-(1,2,4-triazol-1-yl)pentan-3-ol
    Molecular Formula: C15H20ClN3O
    Commercial Trade names: Cultar, Astar, Bonzi, Clipper, Holdfost, Klipper, MET, Parlay, PP333
    Consumer products: Bushmaster, Gravity, Phosphoload, Flower Dragon

    Daminozide
    IUPAC name: N-(Dimethylamino)succinamic acid
    Molecular formula: C6N2H12O3Commercial trade names: Alar, Kylar, B-NINE, DMASA, SADH, B 995
    Consumer Products: Flower Dragon, Top Load, Phosphoload

    The manufacturers intentionally omits info, mislabels products, hides ingredients and markets as if totally natural/organic. This is how Humboldt countys gravity is marketed:

    "Our uniquely prepared kelp extract and phosphorous based additive will harden your flowers from top to bottom. Use once or twice about 3 weeks before the end of a plant's cycle. Adds size and weight to flowering plants."

    Here is the link for 'stop sales' orders on products in Oregon. Some are strictly labeling/money games w/ the fda, others are more serious:

    http://www.oregon.gov/ODA/pest/Pages/stopsales.aspx

    Many familiar manufacturers are on there. Many growers don't even understand the process well enough to get beyond the sales pitch and determine for themselves what is in a product.

    Many in the medical mj community have compromised immune systems and should be more aware of what they are putting in their bodies. If one is health conscious enough to vape, wouldn't it stand to reason that they should be health conscious enough to avoid ingesting poison?
  2. grokit

    grokit power cosmic

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    That's quite a list, thanks for posting it :o!

    I expected to see brands like schultz, not so much botanicare!
    I was planning on switching to fox farms anyways, glad to see that they seem to be in compliance.
    The unregistered products don't seem to be as bad as the mislabeled ones?
    My humboldt sticky wetting agent is both :ninja:!

    :goat:
  3. Snake Plissken

    Snake Plissken Transcendentalist

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    Mislabeling can be anything from a simple error/omission to a downright lie. The fda is no friend of natural products and sometimes (imo) shows bias.

    Many swear by it, but fox farms organic line isn't considered 'real' organics by most. Most of the line claims to be 'organic based'. This is a copy of a great side by side, if you are trying to decide, grow report/nute comparison of both salt and organic lines:

    http://www.420magazine.com/forums/i...40-top-nutrient-study-best-produces-most.html

    Earth juice seems to come out on top. They are a good example of the certification issues as they recently dropped the omri certification, but made no changes to their omri approved products. They just got tired of the bs games.

    A few drops of detergent (not soap) would probably be just as effective a wetting agent at a fraction of the price - and potentially safer. Just get one that doesn't have additives (pure, free, etc.).
    grokit likes this.
  4. grokit

    grokit power cosmic

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    Yeah that's what I used to do. I got the humboldt as part of a close-out sale on the brand, it was the only product of theirs that looked attractive to me. Now maybe I have a clue as to why the brand was closed out by the new store owners. I use it for occasional foliar feeding, and I use jungle rain with my rX spray. I have an extremely small grow to be legal for mmj so I probably have a lifetime supply of both of these products.
    :\
  5. Caligula

    Caligula *results not typical.

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    Dude didnt you know drug dealers dip their weed in embalming fluid in order to get kids higher and hooked on their free samples?
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  6. cityslang

    cityslang A taste on the tongue

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    There was an old urban myth dipping hash in battery acid made it grow larger. But obviously the same weight so not sure how that would work.

    We had gritweed in the UK some years ago and yes I had some it was vile http://www.gritweed.co.uk

    And then there is soapbar:ko:

    I'm sure some weed I had once had been dipped in lemonade or something
  7. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

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    Yeah, I'm aware of that stuff. I never said there weren't dealers who added nasty things to whatever they sold.

    I grew tired a looooong time ago of waiting for someone to find the long-term serious consequences of smoking insecticide/fertilizer-laed weed. If there are elephants outside my door, why aren't there tracks in the snow? Where's the spike in <nasty consequence x> that correlates to smoking street weed? If <nasty consequence x> spikes, then there are always researchers looking for the reason. Lots of opponents and supporters of cannabis have looked for such relationships, but has anyone ever found one?

    Didn't think so.
  8. cityslang

    cityslang A taste on the tongue

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    No me neither just more made up anti cannabis propaganda?

    Worse thing by far in a joint is tobacco.
    probably worse things in food than sprayed on weed.

    I'm on the lookout for the daily mail skunk that's 1000 times stronger and sends you crazy sounds like the strain for me!
  9. grokit

    grokit power cosmic

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    BULLSHIT. Some people are just more sensitive to these toxins than others, and it has nothing to do with cannabis in particular. These poisons are allowed in our food supply so our .01% masters can play modern-day eugenics, by conducting what amounts to an uncontrolled medical experiment on the masses. But hey if you're okay don't worry about it, just ignore the roundup-ready corn eating away at the stomach of the child next door. Nothing to see here, please just change the channel, move along and forget about it!
    :tinfoil:
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  10. Snake Plissken

    Snake Plissken Transcendentalist

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    Funny you should mention that, he stopped by here earlier today:
    [​IMG]

    I've smoked cigarettes for 30 years and I don't have cancer. Everything bad they say about smokes must be wrong. Hopefully everyone pays attention and starts smoking like me, you'll be fine. I'm old enough to have heard all these arguments for cigs, lsd, alcohol and anything else people don't want to have to worry about. The truth is everything from alzheimers to autism to whatever they label as adhd is insanely prevalent right now - like it never used to be. Almost any naturopath or holistic dr will attempt to veer you away from consuming pesticides, gmo, toxins etc. - even most md's would recommend organic produce over store bought......... and we're smoking/vaping these substances. All living organisms that I am aware of uptake things more readily in smaller particles.

    How the same people can point to a lack of studies on the medical efficacy of mj, and call bullshit - yet when looking at a lack of studies concerning long term effects of smoking/vaping toxins, feel everything must be fine, confuses me (I'm really confused about any supposed studies on long term effects of smoking/vaping toxins). Choosing to ignore something is fine, but it seems to me that there is a lot more potential for harm than good if trying to argue the point. You could google search for days on pesticides and other toxins that we were once told was okay, but now know are either carcinogenic or just plain poison.
    Snappo, grokit and Havelock Vetenari like this.
  11. cityslang

    cityslang A taste on the tongue

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    The only way to be sure is allow people to grow there own and not have to buy dodgy street weed and big company weed like the Canadian Government seems to be intent on.

    As for smoking tobacco not even one dies from it but a lot do as it contains a whole host of chemicals weed don't even chewing tobacco is dangerous.

    I smoked cigarettes from 1978 to 2005 my lungs are so much better and no I didn't die of lung cancer either but smoking is up to the individual but no longer for me.

    personally i'd rather have organic weed bur making it illegal creates these issues.
  12. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

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    Where to start...

    First, cigarettes and other things you list have all been studied and connections have been made. No one is suggesting that we don't have to deal with toxins from numerous sources in our daily lives. This thread, however, is specifically about toxins introduced by spraying street weed during cultivation.

    There is no study linking cannabis to nasty effects in general, never mind due to toxins introduced by spraying during cultivation. Also, studies are almost always done using smoked cannabis not vapourized. Obviously combustion introduces toxins not present in vapourizing.

    You completely misstate the argument when you claim people are pointing to a lack of studies on the medical efficacy of cannabis. That is not what I or anyone else said, and is not what we're supposed to be debating. Again, it's supposed to be about spraying street weed.

    Finally, of course there have been plenty of examples of things that were thought to be okay and later were discovered to be harmful. The reason they were found harmful is that something was wrong, the effects were noticed, and researchers went looking for the cause. Given the controversial status of cannabis, there are lots of people trying to find a connection to any harm from cannabis, not just from toxins originating in cultivation sprays, and they still can't find anything. So yes, I believe worrying about this is silly.
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  13. grokit

    grokit power cosmic

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    I too am against these scare tactics by the drug warriors trying to preserve their livelihood. Even though the feds have a mmj patent, 94% of their research $ goes towards exploring the harm caused by mj rather than the benefits. But I am also against ingesting toxins in any form, so would dearly like to see a bit of logic applied. The legwork is done; we already have organic standards in place for food and medicinal herbs.

    Chemical pesticides and herbicides are very very bad for humans and their environment, and we should be using more effective (edit: but less profitable? not) natural alternatives in everything we grow and consume.

    The irony for big pharma is that this conversation gets much more interesting if the toxic additives in our prescription drugs get equally scrutinized, as certain medicines have to be poison in order to be effective at "knocking out" certain illnesses/infections. Just look at chemotherapy for an extreme example. These are two different conversations, but to me this is just what natural, complimentary, integrative medicine needs.

    Mmj is an incredible example of how a whole plant can be synergistically superior to anything that can be synthesized in a laboratory. This "entourage effect" is what scares the shit out of these companies, and their shareholders which are legion. This establishment has become counterproductive for humanity so fuck 'em.
    :bigleaf:
    The emperor wears no clothes, and marijuana/hemp can save the world us from ourselves!
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2014
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  14. Snake Plissken

    Snake Plissken Transcendentalist

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    I feel you on not knowing where to start........

    The title of this thread is: "Worried about long term effects from pesticides & chemicals in street weed?", not: "specifically about toxins introduced by spraying street weed during cultivation". Dumbing it down doesn't really detract from my position. Omitting 'long term effects' doesn't help yours.

    I am still confused about all these studies concerning the long term effects of smoking toxins that you keep referring to. Maybe you could cite some sources so that I can enlighten myself.

    "You completely misstate the argument when you claim people are pointing to a lack of studies on the medical efficacy of cannabis. That is not what I or anyone else said, and is not what we're supposed to be debating. Again, it's supposed to be about spraying street weed."

    Really? No 'misstatement' at all. It's called an analogy. Most commonly used when some people don't get the obvious. The analogy (spelled out) is the comparison of the same conditions (no real studies) and the complete opposite reaction (outrage and feeling the existing beliefs are bs on one hand & total acceptance and believing what is said regardless of lack of studies on the other) to the same set of conditions.

    There are also no studies that you are in HI. Maybe you are in Kansas? There are no studies, that I'm aware of, that eating nothing but legos is harmful, we must assume it's ok. Are there any studies on whether or not beating yourself in the head w/ a rock is harmful? These, again, are also analogies that I can explain if necessary.

    Not being simpleminded, I refuse to look at one single isolated situation w/o considering related factors. I really shouldn't have to explain the correlation between food sources, tobacco and mj. We are talking about many of the same toxins being introduced to the body, w/ the added issue of smoking/vaping these toxins when it concerns mj. Even the toxins that we are told are 'ok', have never been studied when people smoke/vape them. As far as I know, at least until you show me these studies you keep referring to.

    I think that you are obviously an intelligent person. Of course you are also entitled to believe that vaping toxins is ok as well. My concern is that as a respected member you are convincing medical patients to ingest poisons. If you are not in Co or Wa, and are a legal consumer - you are a medical patient. Many patients have compromised immune systems, and as such, are more sensitive and susceptible to issues like these. Many people grow their own vegetable gardens so as not to have to take in toxins (analogy). If two guys are growing a veggie garden out back and 1 uses all natural/organic methods and products while the other goes into his garage and pulls some 10 year old, stop-sale pesticide used to treat non-food shrubs out - you consider this equally acceptable? Equally safe? I have seen guys do just that w/ their mj garden.

    Anyone who cares to look around w/ open eyes can see how the health of people in this country is in serious decline. The effects ARE noticed, researchers ARE looking for causes. According to alz.org, today 1 in 3 seniors die w/ alzheimers or dementia. Many believe these increases are at least partly due to toxins in food sources. Here is an article from the Huffington Post (many more available sources if people don't like this one): http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...ldren-environment-risk-factors_n_1543316.html The title is pretty self explanatory: "Autism's Rising Rates Increasingly Blamed On Toxic Chemicals". Choosing not to see something doesn't mean it's not there.
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  15. GR

    GR Well-Known Member

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    http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~lhom/organictext.html

    I for one do not believe organic means better, that assumption is very dangerous. Pesticides are used for killing whether organic or not and either can have consequences to your own health or to the environment around where they are used, same goes for feltalizers.

    I don't see an easy answer to the OPs question because it all depends on the products that get used whether they are organic or chemical. I think marijuana is a very special plant that has tons of applications in this crazy world, one such remarkable thing is its ability to clean up dangerous radiation. http://defence.pk/threads/sunflowers-and-marijuana-plants-absorb-nuclear-radiation.259171/
    Snappo likes this.
  16. Snake Plissken

    Snake Plissken Transcendentalist

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    Organic gardening is the act of creating and maintaining a healthy soil teeming w/ microbial life. You don't feed the plant w/ synthetics, rather, you feed the soil w/ more natural components which are broken down by the microbes into food the plant can readily uptake. Probably a little different than nitrogen fertilizers created in a lab.

    While organic gardeners may use pesticides, they don't use toxic chemicals. The goal is to have the microbes/soil/fungi in such a healthy state that typical pesticide use is not needed. When needed, most o growers resort to products like neem, organocide or pyrethrins. Pyrethrins have been studied extensively, and when properly used, have no real concerns. Neem is used as everything from mouthwash to diabetic medicine in a lot of the world. Organocide's (my choice) main and only active ingredient is sesame oil. The other ingredients are edible fish oil and lecithin. Does it make sense to compare these products w/ toxins like Paclobutrazol? You can drink the whole jug of my pesticide w/ little more than nausea from it tasting gross. Would you drink a jug of Daminozide? Roundup?

    EDIT: Btw, you typically don't see papers w/ a berkely u stamp that are so completely sourceless. I guess the info was provided to them by OCIA. Here's a wiki quote regarding their efficient scientific methods:
    "OCIA was banned from operating in China in 2010 by the USDA after it reportedly used employees of a Chinese government agency to inspect state-controlled farms and food processing facilities, which constituted a conflict of interest. In China, OCIA had joined forces with the Organic Food Development Corporation, an agency affiliated with the Chinese Ministry of Environmental Protection. The association kept a small staff — one or three people in Nanjing — while inspectors from the Chinese agency went out to farms and factories. Their findings were translated into English and sent to OCIA headquarters in Nebraska, where staff members reviewed the material and made the final decisions on certification"

    Sounds like they phone it in. I will not disagree w/ the fact that there is a wide array of beliefs on what constitutes as 'organic'. I am not speaking to the minimum requirements some states have to be certified. I am speaking to the common sense issue of growing as naturally as possible w/o deliberately adding known carcinogens and toxins.
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2014
  17. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

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    Seriously? So you are suggesting that enough pesticides and chemicals are introduced after cultivation that it adds more risk?

    Since your analogy is fatally flawed, nobody should get it. There are plenty of studies about the medical efficacy of cannabis. Granny Storm Crow has been aggregating links to them for years.

    Now you're putting words into my mouth. I never said vaping toxins was okay. I am not convincing anyone to ingest poisons.

    When you say there are poisons you are begging the question. The whole point is that there is no evidence whatsoever to support the theory that there are any added toxins. You and people like you just feel that there might be. It's up to you to prove that there are such toxins and that they do have long term effects. Consider also that your argument might be expressed as trying to convince medical patients who need cannabis not to use street weed because, well, maybe there might be some toxins that possibly will have long term effects perhaps.

    Edit: I'm retracting the stroked-out part because I realized that there have been examples of pesticide-laced pot. Of course growers are using whatever they can to preserve the crop and sometimes to excess. The point I really should have made is that there is no evidence to show that this is a risk worth worrying about, and I still feel it is not.
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2014
  18. Hippie Dickie

    Hippie Dickie The Herbal Cube Manufacturer

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    just to open up the discussion a bit, systemic pesticides (not sprayed, but put into the soil) are a concern for many people. e.g. Imidacloprid. not supposed to be used during flower or within a month of harvest. but if you're watching your crop go down the toilet, what's a pot grower going to do?

    reading the grow websites is instructive to see the range of actions. evidently monocultures are very difficult to do well - pretty hard to rotate the crop when they're growing herb.

    my mantra is know your chemist ... or in this case, know your grower.
  19. Snake Plissken

    Snake Plissken Transcendentalist

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    I haven't quite figured out how to pull quotes out of posts, sorry.

    "Now you're putting words into my mouth. I never said vaping toxins was okay. I am not convincing anyone to ingest poisons."

    I apologize if I misread your intention, but that's pretty much what I get out of this statement:

    "It's difficult for me not to chuckle when I see people getting their shorts in a knot over the possible contaminants in street weed. I've done extensive reading and research on cannabis for years and I have yet to encounter a case where it's been proven that someone has been affected by sprayed weed. Every so-called incident has turned out to be urban myth."
    "Since your analogy is fatally flawed, nobody should get it. There are plenty of studies about the medical efficacy of cannabis.
    Granny Storm Crow has been aggregating links to them for years."

    Once again, the question was: "I am still confused about all these studies concerning the long term effects of smoking toxins that you keep referring to. Maybe you could cite some sources so that I can enlighten myself."

    I didn't see any of that on the facebook page you referenced. The 'fatally flawed analogy' refers to how an individual can look at virtually the same set of circumstances and come to opposite conclusions - depending on what conforms to their own current belief system.

    "Seriously? So you are suggesting that enough pesticides and chemicals are introduced after cultivation that it adds more risk?"

    Not sure I even understand the question. Cultivation refers to everything from planting to harvesting. Pesticides can be used throughout. "finishers" are used in late flower. Chemical nutes can be used throughout the whole growth cycle.

    "When you say there are poisons you are begging the question. The whole point is that there is no evidence whatsoever to support the theory that there are any added toxins. You and people like you just feel that there might be. It's up to you to prove that there are such toxins and that they do have long term effects. Consider also that your argument might be expressed as trying to convince medical patients who need cannabis not to use street weed because, well, maybe there might be some toxins that possibly will have long term effects perhaps."

    Certain products are classified as toxins. If you add toxins, there are added toxins. I also highly doubt your ability to guage 'a person like me'. It's not up to me to prove anything - even more so when there will always be a portion of society too close minded and full of their own stale beliefs to ever even hear an alternate opinion. It also is not strictly limited to 'street weed'. There are many conscientious growers and our own gov has approved, and later recalled, many pesticides that are toxic/carcinogenic. I probably do unhealthy things every day. I try not to delude myself and others that they are fine and comparable to doing healthy things.

    HD: couldn't agree more. I also have had to do what is necessary to save a crop, but always inform patients of what has been added to their meds and let them make the choice. Many of them are sensitive and carefully monitor what they use.
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  20. grokit

    grokit power cosmic

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    This thread is a great example of why americans can't even agree to require that the gmo poisons in our food supply be labeled, the same gmo corn for example that the eu won't even feed to their livestock.

    It's in our fucking doritos and corn flakes though.
    I believe that wally world is selling fresh sweet gmo cobs!

    By the time a few states finally wake up, their courts will be stacked against these bills and costs will be astronomical for any state that dares to pass labeling laws. Of course they are already working on federal anti-labeling legislation. While they eat all-organic at monsanto's corporate hq cafeteria.

    :mental::disgust:
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2014
  21. Snake Plissken

    Snake Plissken Transcendentalist

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  22. Vicki

    Vicki The Bionic Woman

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    I hate the fact that GMO's are in damn near everything we eat. Who the hell gave them the right to alter nature, (killing our bees in the process) and when did we lose our say over all this? :cuss:
  23. grokit

    grokit power cosmic

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    I used to like george soros because I saw him as an anti-koch liberal advocating mj decriminalization.

    Until I found out that he's also a major monsanto stakeholder. Put those two together and there's a lot of $ in patenting the seeds of a particular strain (charlotte's web anybody?), and making it "roundup ready".


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------
    @pakalolo your stance seems particularily head-in-the-sand as Hawaii is currently a hotbed of gmo policy-making. You probably do know that the islands have three distinct growing seasons, making them ideal for gmo companies testing out their frankencrops. And they have moved in big time, employing the agricultural workers that used to work in the sugarcane fields. Until federally-subsidized gmo beets and cheap foreign labor undercut the marketplace, which made cane sugar unprofitable to produce in the islands and left these workers without jobs.

    So it's the gmo companies, with their employees and politicians against pretty much everybody else in the islands, and the gmos are losing in local/county/island legislation. So of course the gmos are now lobbying at the state level to override what the local island governments want, gotta love democracy in particular paid lobbyists.


    Here's a few more links to get you started on current hawaiian gmo issues:

    GMO-Free Kaua'i | Hawai'i SEED
    GMO Free Kaua'i | Facebook
    Gmo Kauai - Huffington Post
    GMO-Free Maui | Hawai'i SEED
    GMO Free Maui | Facebook
    Maui vs Monsanto - A small island takes on the GMO-Chem industry
    Maui citizens push for GMO moratorium - Thegardenisland.com: Local
    Maui could be the next Hawaiian island to ban GMOs | Intellihub News
    Petitions Filed for and against Maui, Hawaii Pesticide/GMO Bill
    Hawaii's GMO War Headed to Honolulu and Federal Court - Truthout
    New Hawai'i Bills Seek to Undermine Kauai and Big Island's GMO ...
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2014
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  24. Snake Plissken

    Snake Plissken Transcendentalist

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    Yeah a lot of the big brains think it's the nicotine based pesticides that are causing colony collapse disorder. People don't realize how many trucks of bees drive around the country pollinating crops that used to have their own colonies. Einstein said that if the bees went extinct we'd be 4 years after them. They are such an integral part of our ecosystem.

    From IRT concerning gmo's:
    The American Academy of Environmental Medicine (AAEM) doesn’t think so. The Academy reported that “Several animal studies indicate serious health risks associated with GM food,” including infertility, immune problems, accelerated aging, faulty insulin regulation, and changes in major organs and the gastrointestinal system. The AAEM asked physicians to advise patients to avoid GM foods. Before the FDA decided to allow GMOs into food without labeling, FDA scientists had repeatedly warned that GM foods can create unpredictable, hard-to-detect side effects, including allergies, toxins, new diseases, and nutritional problems. They urged long-term safety studies, but were ignored. Since then, findings include:
    • Thousands of sheep, buffalo, and goats in India died after grazing on Bt cotton plants
    • Mice eating GM corn for the long term had fewer, and smaller, babies
    • More than half the babies of mother rats fed GM soy died within three weeks, and were smaller
    • Testicle cells of mice and rats on a GM soy change significantly
    • By the third generation, most GM soy-fed hamsters lost the ability to have babies
    • Rodents fed GM corn and soy showed immune system responses and signs of toxicity
    • Cooked GM soy contains as much as 7-times the amount of a known soy allergen
    • Soy allergies skyrocketed by 50% in the UK, soon after GM soy was introduced
    • The stomach lining of rats fed GM potatoes showed excessive cell growth, a condition that may lead to cancer.
    • Studies showed organ lesions, altered liver and pancreas cells, changed enzyme levels, etc.
  25. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

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    I'm afraid I can't oblige, since I have never referred to studies about the long term effects of smoking toxins.

    I started to respond point-by-point to the rest of your post but I realized I am wasting my time and yours so I'm done. There is a cognitive dissonance here that I don't want to deal with right now.

    I am not from Hawaii and I only live there two months a year. My wife and I are well-known to be quite closely associated with a particular aspect of the Hawaiian environment and while we're aware of other areas of controversy, we can't afford to be involved with them. Hawaiians, quite rightly, do not like part-time residents interfering in local affairs. It took us many years to gain the respect of the locals and it is something we treasure highly.

    I only posted that because frankly, I'm a little offended. This thread isn't even about GMO.
    Snappo likes this.

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