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Inductive power

Discussion in 'Vapor Related Equipment' started by nr-cole, Oct 2, 2011.

  1. Leiana

    Leiana Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    94
    I'm pretty sure its ok for me to post here. We have been working with induction technology on a vaporizer. Its called the Versa Ion.

    How wireless electricity works
    Inductive power works off of a science called resonant frequency. You place a coil inside of the device you want wireless electricity to and have a coil of the same size emanate electricity at a resonant frequency and it will transmit voltage when placed in a reasonable proximity. Its like te concept of tuning forks but for microwaves.
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2014
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  2. Egzoset

    Egzoset 1SipAToke Vaporist (v3.0)

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    Salutations LazyLathe,

    Maybe not just that, i'd suspect your IH station only works with dentistry tools designed to match a specific layout. If that's true then your only option would be to build around a heater element of similar shape, which might be more practical with extracts than dry flowers, because of a limited contact surface, etc.

    It's an interesting (though overkill) alternative you linked to but i believe it's actually a good thing to get such protection in this 80 $ NoFlame bargain! The problem i see is that it's likely to work best using stylus-shaped metal strips, IMO...

    Thank you for the useful feedback anyway!

    :peace:





    ADDENDUM:

    For visual reference.​

    Last edited: Jan 13, 2014
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  3. Egzoset

    Egzoset 1SipAToke Vaporist (v3.0)

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    Shawinigan/Qc, Canada
    Salutations everyone,
    Salutations Leiana,

    Please feel free to add any related feedback as you see fit!

    :D

    Browsing around i finally found keywords which proved to be useful here:

    Google Search: Demeyere ControlInduc

    « Until about 220°C/425°F, a product equipped with ControlInduc heats normally as all the other pans, but above this temperature the power of the inductors progressively diminishes and stabilizes between 245°C/475°F and 250°C/485°F. »

    It sounds somewhat hot at 250 °C but my guess is there's still potential for an application such as ours, so here's one of two surface types currently offered (the other being "ControlInduc Granite"):

    [​IMG]


    These cooking pans (with a Curie alloy) appear to be relatively expen$ive at the moment, especially when one considers the pan must be cut before any IH Vaporizer prototyping can even begin... Though that's only the starting point of a long story, IMHO.

    :peace:
  4. Unconnected

    Unconnected Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    121
    would it be possible to have like a glass wand, simmilar to an ssv wand, that has metal particles fused/embedded in the glass, like iron filings or shavings of steel etc. You could pack the bud into the glass wand and insert it into an induction heater like that dental tool thing (but one designed for vapes) and have a truely all glass vaporizer?

    Or maybe a ceramic that is affected by induction currents
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  5. Egzoset

    Egzoset 1SipAToke Vaporist (v3.0)

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    Location:
    Shawinigan/Qc, Canada
    Salutations Unconnected,

    Yes, actually i do share this view as it corresponds to a concept i happen to have coined the "LavaWand" in FC's international French-speaking section, earlier this month:


    Though i must point out the initial shape i got in mind was planar instead of radial when i first tried to imagine IH Vaporisation:


    It would have provided an all-glass path in a vaporizer built from tubes and sheets held together using nothing else but a silicone brace, while a slight rotation of the top triangular sheet would have rendered airflow adjustment easy. My choice of shape was inspired by commercially available IH cooking plates, of course - but there's more to it as i'll explain next...

    Also, lets simply mention that credit for an IH wand should go to nr-cole, to be honest.

    One might think why not as plastics become conductive if carbon-loaded, for example.

    Well, my drawing shown above illustrated a variant of your own suggestion. Small metal pellets would be loosely contained in sealed tubular arms in order to dissipate mechanical stress caused by thermal expansion. So, in order to verify if my scenario made sense i tested different metals of various shapes on my Salton plate as a preliminary evaluation, then i quickly realized it only detects bodies with the proper magnetic properties and physical layout...

    Form factor/detection was the primary reason why i abandoned my plans for a discontinuous heater mass i guess. Perhaps a custom IH base would work on glass-embeded metal powders, or metal films deposited on a glass surface, etc.

    Credits go to Pipes who offered a potential alternative which remains to be explored anyway:


    Yet the thing is (self) heat-protected pans are built in multiple layers and i figure there may be some good reason(s) to require this stratified structure so we can benefit from the Curie effect in IH cooking...

    [​IMG]

    OKay! Lets take another look at that wax tool (on page 1):

    [​IMG]

    Thanks to LazyLathe we finally know the NoFlame device is rated 115 Volts @ 2 Amperes and delivers 100 Watts of IH power. So, if i'm reading his post correctly then this could mean it's already vapo-compatible when working with stylus-shaped heater elements that compare to the wax tool pictured above.

    Consequently, although this might not be convenient with dry flowers i'll bet a droplet of cannabic oil deposited on the tool's tip would vaporize just fine since he reported the temperature reached 230 °C... So it's probably not a limitation of power nor of temperature it seems!

    :science:

    If we suppose this particular tool only needs its magnetic circuit to be completed between the front opening and inner end to detect presence of a suitable load then here's what one might find inside the LavaWand (see 1st diagram on top):



    I'd just pile up 1 metal element on top of 1 VaporGenie ceramic puck and repeat until i'm satisfied that sufficient short-term heat retention results from thermalisation across the whole stack, which might also offer fire compatibility as a by-product...

    Yes, it's only a matter of determining what metal layout would be best to implement a viable heat-exchanger, possibly with an all-glass path indeed if that's prefered/required: all it would take is a (co-axial) glass stem passing right through the various disc centers in this example (or a glass tube covered with metal for magnetic continuity), hoping dimensions on the base IH station would allow it...

    In the later case air would flow in, reverse direction eventually and then reach my cannabic bowl before it exits via the mouthpiece, through a cooling maze if necessary, etc.

    I might even want inlet moisturization (!) to be included into such a design, somehow:


    [​IMG]

    ...or ceramic discs alternating with metal heater elements used as described here (see 1st picture on top again)!...

    Evidently ceramic characterized by the Curie effect would be great but i suspect this may not be an option unless you meant to suggest metal filter discs, etc.

    :peace:
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2014
  6. Unconnected

    Unconnected Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    121
    Hmm, thats a shame that it is not effective on particles of metal, but only big plates or tubes or other larger more solid pieces of metal.

    I guess you could just make a wand out of stainless steel and avoid the entire issue. couldnt you? i guess in that case it would be more of a conduction vaporizer than a convection one, and thats what everyone wants, everyone also wants glass. Even though thats a bit elitist and stupid, metal is fairly safe, id trust a SS vape wand over a teflon pan anyday and yet how many vaporists happily cook daily on a plastic coated frypan and then go and cry about all glass vape paths on FC :p

    Hmm its a pickle, for sure you dont want to be changing technology if there is no benefit, but in my mind im sure there is a way that vaporisation could benefit a lot from induction, i mean shit at least it would eliminate the issues with particles coming into contact with a ceramic heater, resulting in burnt taste etc. thats pretty common on most convection designs and it would be elminated with induction.

    But an induction convection vaporizer, hmmm, ill vape and come back with more ideas, i like ideas, i dont have the skills to ever put them into production but i hope someone else can benefit off my ideas some how.

    I recently thought about a cooling bread bin in the design of a classic ice box to store bread in the summertime with out using a fridge that stales your bread, if anyone wants to make that a reality go for it.
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  7. Egzoset

    Egzoset 1SipAToke Vaporist (v3.0)

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    Location:
    Shawinigan/Qc, Canada
    Hi again Unconnected,

    Well, i'm sorry to find that your comment suggests it didn't suffice to explain the related context by writing this:

    « ...i tested different metals of various shapes on my Salton plate as a preliminary evaluation, then i quickly realized it only detects bodies with the proper magnetic properties and physical layout... »

    You see, such apparent generalization over particles sounds somewhat premature as my conclusion only applies to tests conducted on a Salton ID-1081 IH device designed to detect compatible cookware specifically, probably just like the NoFlame Plus won't work with anything else than stylus-shaped dental tools it seems...

    As far as i'm concerned we still don't know for sure what a Mini-Ductor can actually do for us, also i feel obligated to use that fine opportunity to correct a mistake of mine: in fact it was StickyShisha who made mention of it in the 1st place and re-reading Pipes finally it reminded me of that.

    By the way, have you tried to follow my links more than 1 level deep? Checking the post written by StickyShisha it wasn't hard to learn about the Mini-Ductor II CE 230V, a garage tool working on rusted nuts, bolts, bearings, gears, tie rod sleeves, etc... That's still a commercially available product no vaporizer manufacturer would need to produce internally. So, if it's efficient on relatively small bolt heads why not tiny metal chips or even particules, if you must insist to depend on those that is!

    :2c:

    Sorry if it felt like i was rejecting your proposal in some trivial manner, i can only offer a testimony about CD-ROM shaped discs - under a 3 years old context... Additionally, lets not forget different materials have different thermal expansion coefficients and hence i believe that glass-embeded metal particules would cause the substrate to crack, etc.

    Yes, but that someone wouldn't be me as there are better options. Think of halogen-based vaporizers like the Aromed 4.0, Venus, Herbalizer and soon the Versa Infinity: they all have a tungsten (metal) filament contained inside a glass envelope so why not a wireless bulb version using Curie alloys instead?

    Although those products may expose the air path to metal or even wood i'm not convinced that's mandatory at all.

    You're making the assumption that our air/cannabic paths necessarily need to be exposed to direct contact with the metallic surface(s) of a stainless steel wand. Since it's quite unclear to me how you came to such a conclusion please try to explain it to me how my planar concept gave you the impression there's got to be conduction in it at all!! Not to mention the same remains true for my LavaWand alternative!...

    [​IMG]

    Induction Heating simply removes wiring and its corresponding joint-sealing issues, whatever. If the 250 °C Curie point isn't enough to overcome thermal resistance from a glass separation layer then manufacturers only need to pick a different alloy as the temperature limit is determined by its formulation.

    Personally i'd trust an SS CD-size disc even if the air makes physical contact with it but it doesn't mean there are no other options for purists.

    For teflon exposure you'd need to build that wand using Demeyere's "ControlInduc Granite" model while the one i specifically focussed on (in bold green characters below a picture!) comes « without non-stick coating ». A lapse of distraction i guess...

    [​IMG]

    Additionally, my HerbalAire has teflon right inside its heat-exhanger and yet i don't get the impression this has ever been a major deterrent on FC... So it means i do share your opinion but still wouldn't want to ignore the member's taste for all-glass paths.

    Yes, i understand and i'll add that reading through the Demeyere ControlInduc web page one should realize such coatings cannot overheat on IH cooking plates: you can only scratch those - e.g. it won't burn anyway.

    [​IMG]

    That's some of the beauty of their Curie alloy pans: it remains possible to control power while the upper temperature limit could be turned into an overheat protection feature only - which is the case in my Demeyere inspired example.

    I have similar expectations and beyond: power conversion efficiency is likely to prove useful in portable 12+ Volts (car/boat) vaporizers, IMO.

    Rest assured it sounds familiar as i'm no manufacturer myself, though it doesn't mean we can't see great potential in this form of heat source.

    :peace:
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2014
  8. Unconnected

    Unconnected Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    121
    the part about conduction was more with my idea of a totally stainless steel bud wand, in my opinion if the walls and screen of the wand were being heated, it would be a conduction style vape more than it would be a convection, even with air being drawn through it. i wasnt mentioning your proposals they sound much better than mine.

    Teflon being inside a vape is actually fine, it has a operating tempreture of about 350c if i have read correctly, the problem with cookware is that you can very eaisly get a pan way hotter than 350c on a gas stove. A vape however you wouldnt be running it that hot, infact i doubt it can get that hot because vaping packs it in around 250c and you start to get very close to combustion.
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  9. Egzoset

    Egzoset 1SipAToke Vaporist (v3.0)

    Messages:
    2,626
    Location:
    Shawinigan/Qc, Canada
    Hi there Unconnected!

    Lets suppose light portable applications would have to depend on a metallic tube diameter no larger than a straw for soft drinks, it would sound like a trade-off i'd favour anytime over slower/longer pre-heating in glass-contained heater elements, for example. The problem i see is about the need for vaporizer manufacturers to ask a foundry to produce customized Curie alloy tubing for them - no matter what size actually...

    In comparison, it's should be relatively easy to manage with the prototyping phase by just using strips cut into readily available ControlInduc/PhyTherm pans or equivalent: insert it inside a glass tube with stress-relief supports to center it in the middle and then seal both ends to obtain the IH equivalent of an halogen bulb, that's all it takes to offer pristine "cleanliness" and still beat ceramic heaters in terms of speed, i would think.

    [​IMG]

    Conduction is a relatively desirable thing if it can be kept under control, IMO. So i'd probably want a mix of conductive, radiative and convective heat in the end, as the sort of wand i imagined returns to its IH base for a brief moment only. Pure convection ain't that fun, i had a V-Tower this fall and finally gave it away as a potpourri warmer, to perfume a living room... The motive for this rejection: lack of conductive/radiative heat components made it unsuitable because i had to keep preparing the next toke and this was too much lung effort for my taste. I might add even my pipe feels better once it's warm.

    On top of that i guess conduction is bad because there's potential for overheat but how about it when the risk for burns (or even just "herb cooking") is brought down to zero?...

    If there's an SS screen in my bowl then that's no longer an all-glass path anyway. Also, being a VG pipe user i must admit it's not a major concern for me as the metal mesh surface gets sticky in no time and it doesn't even have to be submitted to magnetic induction heating, after all. Furthermore, in a table A.C. powered application there's no reason not to use a metal tube so large it can work like a section of the Solwe LoxLux lamp for their Vaponic:


    Except our IH version would provide room for 1 Vaponic-like glass structure only. [​IMG]

    So i believe the metallic "walls" would be best located outside the bowl and away from it, not even present in my air path as a matter of fact.

    Obviously, but that's on a gas stove... I wouldn't tolerate the use of teflon unless i get the certainty it won't overheat and that's a requirement which happens to be highly compatible with Curie alloys unless the unit must also work with flames from a lighter or torch.

    Considering the Demeyere ControlInduc Granite pans stop heating beyond 250 °C and PhyTherm alloys also exist for 230, 260 or 290 °C i'm confident a suitable range of temperatures can be achieved. In any case there's no teflon in halogen bulbs and i say a glass-wrapped metal strip should be similar, meaning i'd simply avoid their "Granite" option.

    Combustion was the main reason why i started thinking of IH power for starters, then i realized its wireless/contactless nature greatly simplifies the task when seeking "pure" path designs as well. So, if 250 °C won't suffice then try 290 °C instead, and if 290 °C is too much then simply inject some tiny amount of unheated fresh air into the heat-exchanger to adjust, whatever!...

    [​IMG]

    On a side-note, can you envision an unmodified pan filled with cannabis that's covered with a whip-connected lid?...

    :peace:
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2014
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  10. Egzoset

    Egzoset 1SipAToke Vaporist (v3.0)

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    UPDATE



    Well, at least it appears to be reaching the local market finally:


    Hummm... So, how should one proceed to cleanly cut a 120 mm (dia.) disc from this frypan?

    [​IMG]

    Is it even worth a try?...

    [​IMG]
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  11. Egzoset

    Egzoset 1SipAToke Vaporist (v3.0)

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  12. Egzoset

    Egzoset 1SipAToke Vaporist (v3.0)

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    Salutations everybody,

    We've got a false alarm but this one appears to be about the real deal:


    Juge for yourselves:

    LotoLabs Evoke

    « Introducing Evoke
    the world's first induction vaporizer
    coming june 2014
    »

    :peace:
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  13. lazylathe

    lazylathe On the verge of...

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    1,025
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    Hiding in your stash jar!
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  14. Loto Labs

    Loto Labs Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Redwood City, CA
    Thanks for the useful plot and enthusiasm! We are investigating temp control using the Curie point of alloys but it is a slow process because the meshes are not available in arbitrary alloys and the skin depth vs. frequency also plays a role. We have decided to go ahead with the concept now because we can play with meshes and alloys to our hearts content once we have a user base and what we have already works just great in prototype form!

    So, look out for our campaign and we'll keep posting as we make progress.
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  15. Egzoset

    Egzoset 1SipAToke Vaporist (v3.0)

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    Salutations Lazylathe,
    Salutations Loto Labs,

    To me IndieGoGo is a reminder of the very same product which some guy stated it was an induction vaporizer, please correct me if i'm mistaking! Not to mention i learned in its dedicated thread that customers are expected to ventilate electronics through their cannabic bowl using their own lungs...

    Euh...

    Anything seems possible, even the impossible sometimes!

    Well, you could say i'm overly confident in the potential of IH vaporisation. Which is beyond enthousiasm: this is a certainlty...

    While that is on topic:


    It sounds like there is room for nearly conventional temperature control, once implemented it won't be much more trouble to provide easy adjustment. I didn't see too many features except one which i'm seriously apprehensive about: please tell me there's no double-function USB slot for ventilation + "fresh-air" inlet!...

    :uhoh:

    More specifics? What range of frequencies would be available for example?...

    Oh! :| But how do you get such a user-base without consistant incentives???

    In any case good day, have fun!

    :peace:
    Last edited: May 21, 2014
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  16. Loto Labs

    Loto Labs Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    14
    Location:
    Redwood City, CA
    Sorry Everyone I just realized we've posted in the wrong thread. Please find our main thread here: http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/loto-labs-evoke.10756/

    Dear Egzoset,

    There is one frequency because the coil-capacitor 'tank' needs to be low loss and have relatively costly high-power low-loss capacitors. This frequency is chosen to have a good skin depth match to around a 400 mesh. This means that to test other meshes well, they should also be around 400 which is not always easy to find in unusual alloys.

    Indeed there is not a multifunction ventilation/USB socket!
    Last edited: May 21, 2014
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  17. Egzoset

    Egzoset 1SipAToke Vaporist (v3.0)

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    Hi again Loto Labs,

    First things 1st:

    ...and the air/cannabic volumes are totally contained to eliminate any eventuality of a contact with the air surrounding internal hardware such as electronics, batteries and whatnot?... Correct?? E.G. Electronics are being ventilated on their own, etc., etc. Etcetera!

    [​IMG]

    My question was inspired by another topic where a piezo-electric transducer breaks water into cold mist (fog), which proved quite impressive in cannabic vapor conditioning. I mean, imagine if it could be made portable!... No more pocket-sized dryness, that would be a hell of a niche - almost too good to be true!

    Of course, and it takes time to get everything settled about right. I see.

    This project is young, i wish i could foresee the future of your specific concept but i'm convinced IH technology can't be ignored forever anyway. Sooner or later a manufacturer will rise, right now that could be you! So i guess that's you're chance to set the music for others to dance...

    Thanks for passing by!

    :peace:
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  18. Egzoset

    Egzoset 1SipAToke Vaporist (v3.0)

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    UPDATE



    Eureka! I think i have a solution...

    The 12 cm LavaPit disc fits easily inside a 16 cm circle representing the flat portion of some frypan's base, which is fine for a "deluxe" scenario but it still wasn't clear to me what alternatives there are in terms of power requirements, mass, size, co$t, etc... So i tried to imagine a way to cut multiple bands instead:

    The present illustration suggest having one 15 cm strip and two of 6 & 13 cm respectively. Now take a good look at these "magic" numbers where length = circumference (bent as a loop):
    • 8 cm = 1" (dia.)
    • 12 cm = " (dia.)
    • 16 cm = 2" (dia.)
    So, once these trips have been wrapped one can start building on this type of structure i figure:

    [​IMG]

    All it takes is a vertical alternance of notches, so the air will pass above one metal element and then under the next, so on until it emerges fully thermalized at the center. Of course for this to work the top and bottom need to be closed in order to form a proper path capable of creating the desired heat exchange.

    Glass would be great for a casing, or perhaps even enamel copper. Anyway, that's clearly quite some involving work to cut notched strips to be bent before such assembly can even emerge, but is there a more convenient option?

    :peace:
  19. StickyShisha

    StickyShisha Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,281
    looks like this might mate well with a Ti tipped Nectar Collector
  20. Egzoset

    Egzoset 1SipAToke Vaporist (v3.0)

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    Salutations StickyShisha,

    Oh yes, any Ti tipping you may wish for StickyShisha!! :nod:

    Though this quote apparently refered to the following contribution, i believe:


    « ...We use those dental induction heaters at work and i want to borrow one... »

    So the verdict would belong to LazyLathe in my opinion.

    :2c:

    Unfortunately, ironical faith could very likely result in no Ti plating options at all for me, since my only probable source of Curie-alloy is supposed to be from the base of some fancy european IH cookware 29 cm in diameter...

    :peace:

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