Happycamper's House of Denial brought to you by ExxonMobil

have you even left california? you seem to be fighting this whole thing tooth and nail. is it to hard for you to believe that our government would lie to us? get pissed off at me all you like sir. its not gonna change whats happening around the world one bit. if i can get this out to one other person, let them know some of the things that are happening in our world today, then thats worth it to me. but it seems to me your minds already made up about this whole deal. now can we get back to the discussion? if you have any other problems with what i say, or what i think email me. we will discuss it further there. till then if you have no useful information to add to this, dont post.

Yes of course I have left California, you don't make "very good Italian friends" without doing so.

Just for the record I am very open to the idea of climate change being misrepresented by scientists with agendas. I'm sure it is happening on both sides of this debate. I also completely believe our government and every government in the history of the world has lied...

What I am fighting is the ignorant generalizations you keep making.

You seem to have a very low opinion of your fellow Americans. As for our government, yes it's far from perfect. Doesn't mean it's evil incarnate. Shit, I can legally have weed delivered to my house. I fucking love America.

not everyone has that luxury legally. i tend to look at things from the bigger picture. and frankly my generation doesnt give a shit about anything other then themselves. (yes its not true for everyone but the majority). im 21, i see the people around me. and the majority of them are clueless about the government.

i guess i see things differantly then alot of people. i see the stuff happening around me, i see how people interact around me. most are oblivious to what goes on. maybe its just from growing up in a small town, but i hate the way people interact in a city. people have lost something over the years. it is a step back when you come out to this part of the country, we arent as fast moving as other places. but one thing we do have here, is a larger sence of community.

little social experiment for you to show you how self centered people can be. go out to a public place, and say hello to the people you come in contact with. the majority will walk away from you without even glancing at you. others may say hello back. even this simple gesture of kindness, most wont even have the decency to say hello back to you.

this is where i draw my opinion on our country. my little corner of the country the community is the major goal. if someone needs help they get it wheather they asked for it or not. people are willing to help out. other places this doesnt happen near as much as it should. for instance someone with a flattire along side the highway. here people stop to lend a helping hand. elsewhere people go by and dont even notice because they have their own problems to take care of first.

as ive said time and time again, not EVERYONE is like this, but the majority is. the majority takes CNN news as truth. if they didnt, cnn would either change what it shows and how they show it, or else would be shut down. the majority of americans are not active in their local government. the majority of americans are distracted from the real picture by these media giants manipulating their storys to conform to a centeralized idea.

if these people involved with this whole scandel have nothing to hide. then they should have all of their data released to the public for review. if climate change is as big of a deal as they say it is, i want to be able to have access to all of their data. to many people are making to much money off of this, something in the system needs to change.

first and formost i feel that our government needs to rethink its place in the world. our civilization isnt ready for one world government there is to much corruption with the government we already have. this will only make things worse.

i can go on all day about the problems in our country. we have more of them then people choose to believe. right now theres thousands of people that are starving to death in our own country. we need to fix out own social problems before we try fixing the worlds problems.

now i do agree we do need to look at how we use our energy. we need to develope a plan to concerve as much energy as possible. the way they are trying to do this now isnt the right corse of action. the action right now is for a political agenda it has nothing to do with our enviroment.

how long are we going to let these transperant agancies run our country? i feel that positions in government should be on a vollenteer basis. no money should be made. money corrupts people. there is a better way to go about things then we are right now. and i predict within the next 50 years, there will be mass civil unrest in our country. now how important will your ipod be then?

see my point im making?

Again, I see you don't don't think very highly of most Americans. I also happen to believe that there is much more nuance in this world than absolutes. You'll learn that as you get older.

I'm sorry. I meant reported by whom, instead of deleted. And the links only provide refutation of your claim that there is some conspiracy to perpetuate a climate change hoax. There is no data to be deleted.


And tell me, have the following links also been reported to "of" deleted data?


http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN23263425

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/11/climate-hack/

http://www.ucsusa.org/news/press_release/hacked-climate-e-mails-0306.html

So, if you really believe this is some large scam please refute the refutations. Because your first reply was a cop out.

http://www.eastangliaemails.com/emails.php?page=1&pp=25&kw=travesty the actual email itself. no out of context here.

how can data showing its cooling be wrong?

link to all the emails and documents, read for yourself, make your own decisions. i just found the link to all the emails so i myself have alot of reading ahead of me.
http://www.eastangliaemails.com/index.php

It's funny you say that, I went back to look at a paper I had written based off an article in the newspaper, and my wording is different than yours but in complete agreement.

The "green" companies stand to gain just as much and even more with government support that the major oil companies and so forth would stand to lose with all the imposed regulations. On top of that, companies with green technology get several benefits.

Back to my first post, I must have been a little when I made the post about it being for the environment, I think my point was to say, "I wish it were for the environment" or something along those lines.

http://www.eastangliaemails.com/emails.php?eid=459&filename=1104893567.txt

the "hockey stick" graphs which have been proven to be made up explained right here. every email i click on i find this stuff. start reading people, this stuff is unbelieveable.

http://www.technologyreview.com/energy/13830/page2/ link to an artical about the hockey stick graphs.

http://www.eastangliaemails.com/emails.php?eid=462

You deserve post of the thread award. Reasonable language is awesome.

Ive worked for the government as a scientist in the environmental field for many years, particularly in the air monitoring and analysis aspect.

We do continuous air monitoring for such things as ozone, oxides of nitrogen, carbon monoxide, sulfur dioxide, reduced sulfur compounds and particulate of various sizes.
Although we allow for the invariable cycling through the seasons and years, we do see that in general, these numbers are slowly rising. This data has the tightest QA/QC validation, and I see the real, raw data before it is released to the public.

Even with a good data set, proper interpretation and prediction can be difficult. Global warming is such a large scale and so complex, it may be nearly impossible. Our planet is so amazing in maintaining overall balance and adapting for variations, despite the despicable things that we humans are doing to it. Measuring the global temperature is just a snapshot in a much bigger picture, imo.

Keep in mind that while greenhouse gases will contribute to increased overall temperatures, the mega tons of particulates that are also being released into the atmosphere are also contributing to a decrease in overall temperature, acting as a kind of buffer. Without it, we may see a larger overall temperature increase, but it is acting as a double edge sword, imo.

We must find a way of decreasing/eliminating fossil fuels and poisoning our beloved planet in general.

Fuck combustion

Why is there a delay in finding alternate fuels? The 'delay' is making a select group of people super rich, and will continue to until the day oil dries up. Maybe thats the reason for the delay?

sorry, but big deal . Basing how the government runs on whether you can have your medicine delivered is shallow . First they demonized a plant , for the most part, for greed. I guess the current movement has made some great strides with mmj, but it's ridiculous and unconstitutional from the beginning to tell me what I can or can not intake into my system .
Now you are, for whatever it's worth or use, databased and profiled in a computer system that is state run and shared with other agencies. I'm not paranoid though, I have worked with databases and having 300 million records in a database(s) is no big effort.
Sorry, all I'm really saying is you are now part of the system that you have some agreement with , an understanding that they are allowing you to do this.

They can also take it away.

First of all, I'm the one that made that statement, not Frickr. Secondly, I'm not on any state database. Registering with the department of health is optional, not mandatory. Lastly, that comment was not the basis for my entire ideology, merely a light-hearted example that sometimes the system gets it right. It's up to us as citizens to perfect our democracy. Pissing and moaning about everything accomplishes nothing. We need to stay vigilant, and not just when our guy is in the White House, be they liberal or conservative.

Im trying to find a documentary that was shown on UK TV about 2/3 years ago. It completely rips apart the global warming is manmade argument at every level.

I remember when i saw the trailer i thought how on earth could anyone not see what (manmade) global warming is doing, and it made me angry at the time. However, by the end of the film I could see the other point of view very clearly, and it made me realise how blinkered my point of view was that global warming had to be manmade.

Did anyone else ever see this? If i could remember the title it's probably on Youtube somewhere

Ah found it
This is first link, there are a few parts as it's a full documentary. Very interesting imo.

pt 1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcIBOsViKCc
pt 2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uw8D2ZCyy7k
pt 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-w1SX8tH68
pt 4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkRyEAf9T-o
pt 5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgl9d6R5ZC4
pt 6 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSTm5LGxt-c
pt 7 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqniRtFdShM
pt 8 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZqfCEEqsG4


Just watched the whole thing again....i think i'm speechless.

The developing world (due to climate change) is under intense pressure not to develop. Hmmmm, no one has brought this up yet in this discussion. Discuss?

Greenland was much warmer than it is today 1000 years ago. 1000 years ago, somehow we pulled through that 'catastophy' that the media would cause you to believe is going to happen if the temperature rises. There are cool and warm periods, always have been, always will be.

I think we can all recall terrifying images shown on the television of ice sheets breaking up and melting..... This happens seasonally, like leaves falling off a tree. The ice sheets grow and retract normally with the seasons.

The media forget to mention that they are filming something that is a natural process....(Propaganda)

great video happycamper, i had no idea that the eviromentalists were blocking the use of any of their natural resources in africa. this is something that could really help out the poor, and they are being told no? i guess keep them away from their resources then go rape and pillage their whole continent when everywhere else runs out of them.

im all for sustainable energy sources. and wind and solar power technologies need to develope alot further. wind power is so "dirty" as in if you were to take an oscilloscope and measure the power being produced from them, you will see that the sine waves produced are very uneven. when there is that much distortion in the power, other things come into play and cause it to be even less efficiant, and making it nearly impossible to send long distances. To actually make this stuff work, huge batteries will need to be constructed near these windfarms to store soem of the energy else what will you do about power if the wind isnt blowing today?

one thing you dont hear any of the green agenda people discussing is geothermal electricity. theres enough energy produced in one year from geothermal that could power all of the earths power needs for thousands of years. but theres no money to be made in this. the big batterys and the millions of wind turbines that need to be produced, and still need a fossil fuel powerplant to offset the majority of the power.

their green power stands to do nothing about the pollution that is already being created, and if it was as big of a problem as it already is, they would be persuing these better sources of power then using the ones that as of right now are shit.

I think this kinda goes along with your discussion . They are making all the power they need plus with just hot and cool water as the power sorce , and if I remember right the power station paid its self off in like 3 years . http://www.chenahotsprings.com/geothermal-power/

There is a bunch more stuff like that , using R-134 and heat , infinity turbines makes a unit that will make 1K watts just from the heat being blown out the pipes of a semi .

yes i know geothermal is used but its still small. now if in 20 years the icecaps were really going to melt, dont you think we would of already shut down these huge powerplants and started using geothermal? and 1000w isnt hardly anything, enough to run 10 100w bulbs.

you always see them bragging about all this new technologies, yet its still the same equipment in the powerplants. the only updating they do to their plants are updates that help their costs go down.

What I love is the whole fundemental basis for global warming ie CO2 goes up, temperature goes up, is wrong. The actual scientific studies show that it's the Sun that effects temperatures on Earth through Sun spots and solar winds and effects on clouds.

There is no correct evidence to show increased co2 increases the temperature. Most of the 'scientists' that apparently back co2 causing global warming are not actually scientists (reviewers and other government people to make up the numbers). A lot of the real scientists have asked for their name to be taken off the 'data' but are denied.

What we have been told so far is propaganda.

What i find the most disturbing is how this is presented as fact when there is actually no science to back it up. It gets spoonfed to our children at school, and i find that extremely worrying.

Can i just ask then. Why is the temperature changing just at the Earths surface. If any of this 'warming' was caused by greenhouse gasses and 'greenhouse' effect, the temperature should rise in the atmosphere in certain areas. And it's not, the change is at ground level. So why are you saying greenhouse gasses are warming the planet? Again the science does not actually back it up.

Another interesting link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfHW7KR33IQ

30,0000, 9000 PHD scientists are trying to speak up about this and tell us the facts.

They are finding it really difficult even to get on the air, and without the internet we wouldnt even know they existed.