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Endocannabinoid System Thread

Discussion in 'Medical Discussion' started by C No Ego, Feb 22, 2018.

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of all new things learned how much has ECS had an impact on your learning?

  1. None- I just want to get high and my mind sits wandering

    2 vote(s)
    8.7%
  2. A Lot- ECS has led me to be more knowledable on all things

    21 vote(s)
    91.3%
  1. C No Ego

    C No Ego Well-Known Member

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    So after much deliberation here is the ECS thread! I searched FC and came up with no similar threads so decided to make my own..

    What is the Endocannabinoid system ECS ?
    Endocannabinoid system is a physiological system in all creatures with a spinal column... ECS is predicted to be a few billion years evolved starting with the Sea squirt signalling the first cannabinoids...

    The ECS consists of signalling molecules ( cannabinoids) that communicate intracellular messages from the surface of the cell to the interior of the cell and or vice versa... when the neuron of the cell needs to know what is going on in the extracellular environment ( homeostasis) it sends a signal ( 15,000 signals a second per cell!) ... @ the surface of the cell a confirmation of change occurs and a ligand gated cannabinoid receptor forms to accept the cannabinoid as the bio-chemical messaging molecule that is the identifier... the neuron then knows whether to influx calcium or glutamate or both... etc

    ECS is the intracellular communication system that manages / maintains every bio-chemical signal of every cell from the time you start to cellular divide until all your cells cease to signal.

    an estimated 15,000 bio-chemical cannabinoid signals occur per second per cell in 39 trillion total neuronal cells... 68 trillion estimated total cells to make a man but some type cells have more bio-signalling than others etc...

    Our ECS exists from lipid fats I.E. essential fatty acids, EFAs.. they are the base medium for ECS to exist... for cannabinoid receptor signalling to occur we biologically convert EFAs over to PUFAs ( poly unsaturated fatty acids ) that are endocannabinoiods synthesized and created/degraded on demand... the exact shape of omega three and omega six determine that PUFAs conversion to endocannabinoids...

    so this thread I'd like to see it not just the ( ECS is cb1 cb2 and thc /cbd modulate ECS etc... )... everywhere that explains ECS so far says something about CB1 and CB2 and have not gone much further in explaining it ( Fuck!! ) is about how I feel about it.... so I've added in this message more detail than normal hopefully sparking insight and desire to know more into the readers... I've explained maybe a splinter of the knowledge at that,, more like a splinter that's annoying the shit out of me LOL Enjoy It!

    just a few links to provide reference
    http://www.bionity.com/en/encyclopedia/Endocannabinoid_system.html
    https://themedicalbiochemistrypage.org/endocannabinoids.php
    https://themedicalbiochemistrypage.org/bioactivelipids.php
    the molecules in cannabis- http://www.bionity.com/en/encyclopedia/Terpenoid.html
    bio-active enzyme that allows vapor enthusiasts to get high-http://www.bionity.com/en/encyclopedia/FAAH.html


    field of research on patented cannabinoids... starting about 1942 it looks like
    https://www.procon.org/files/United States Patent 6630507.pdf


    Just a quick shout out to Cannabis as it creates those bio-active lipophilic molecules that are bio-mimicry agents in the ECS ... phytocannabinoids.. having been created in such a shape specific manner as to impart biological information to the active cannabinoid receptors in the ECS mentioned above in detail... 120 identified phytocannabinoids and each has shape specific activity as determined from the molecular profile...
     
  2. nosmoking

    nosmoking Fogmonger

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    If only I could get my better half to read this thread or aome of the other good threads we have discussed the ECS in. I was having a discussion with her a few days ago and brought up the ECS and she believes its a bunch a bullshit because she does not recall learning about it in her APM nursing book when she went to college 15 years ago. Some people just hold on to stupid for dear life because its to hard to accept that they learned something wrong. So enlighten me or at least amuse me if you would...how do I get a stubborn stuck in the "pot has no medicinal value" mindset RN nurse to acknowledge that THC/CBD is not only medicinal but also that the medical world has acknowledged that the human body has an ECS system? How do I put this in front of the face of a person who is too stubborn or lazy to research or look herself and really could care less? Any takers?

    I often think about strapping her to a chair with the whole Clockwork Orange setup abd putting a slew of the newer pro cannabis docus on but I doubt that would work either.

    So to get back on topic...are there any unbiased medical papers such as peer reviews and such that we have access to that we could post links to here? Perhaps some of the ones listed in the first post may be what I am looking for even.
     
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  3. OldNewbie

    OldNewbie Well-Known Member

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    I'm not quite sure what you're asking. While there is not a ton of support for medicinal value other than for some issues, the system is accepted. What part does she not believe?

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18426493

    Or, just look at the bibliography on wikipedia:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabinoid_receptor
     
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  4. C No Ego

    C No Ego Well-Known Member

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    1,431
    what you can tell her and she will understand... the endocannabinoid system is the physiological system that contains the entire G-coupled protein receptors ( 7 transmembrane receptors) in the human body...
    https://duckduckgo.com/?q=G-coupled...membrane+receptors)&t=ffcm&atb=v62-6__&ia=web
    up to 50% of doctors prescribed medication is targeting those cellular protein receptors. I'd say that medical biochemistry page is about as close as you can get to non stoner science etc....But, the person must have a passion to learn it nonetheless as it is complicated and confusing... the University of Michigan has one of the first approved cannabis research facilities other than Ol Miss... hopefully Michigan will teach ECS eventually and not just the botany aspects...

    But- basically to explain it- cannabis molecules are shaped in such a way to act on the G-coupled protein receptors and cause a confirmation of change...
     
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  5. MinnBobber

    MinnBobber Well-Known Member

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    4,046
    ..................................................................................
    From my experience, explaining the ECS by initially getting too detailed into lipids, neurons, etc can cause one's head to spin and zone out. IMO, a broad-based overview can hopefully tweak her interest to willingly want to learn more and get more detailed info later
    It can be something like:

    Endocannabinoids and their receptors are found throughout the body: in the brain, organs, connective tissues, glands, and immune cells. ... The endocannabinoidsystem, with its complex actions in our immune system, nervous system, and all of the body's organs, is literally a bridge between body and mind. It's mission is to provide homeostatis or balance in your body by synchronizing all body systems for optimum performance.

    One example is its role in the immune system to seek balance---so your body is not being too vigilant in guarding whereby it even attacks itself nor being too laid back and letting in too many disease causing elements---monitoring that balance.

    It's the only body system with two directional flow, whereby it can provide feedback and self-adjust for balance so you are not running too hot or too cold, not too fast nor too slow, etc.

    ?? Does she believe or see the enormous medical value of cannabis?? The easiest example is what cannabis does for epilepsy patients as that is such a visible result. For many it has miraculous results---is she aware of that? Kids go from 100 seizures a day to one a week, for example. Does she acknowledge this?

    Without getting into research first, there is a mountain of anecdotal evidence that CANNABIS WORKS on dozens of diseases.
    The ECS explains WHY it works so broadly, a seemingly impossible thing.

    A discussion should include something about the ECS system having transmitters, receptors, and the internal chemical activators (endocannabinoids) to run the "homeostasis show". Many bodies don't produce enough endocannabinoids and and cannabis supplements the body's production/ it exactly fits into the receptors (like a lock and key fitting together). Just like many bodies are short of vitamins or minerals and a supplement helps, cannabis supplements this ECS deficiency.

    Sometimes a little history can help like cannabis has been used as medicine for at least 6000 years.

    Maybe some cannabis educational/ECS educational videos would be easier to digest--how does she like to learn WHEN she wants to learn something?

    The stigma against cannabis is such a huge tragedy and is very hard to overcome. And most med schools TODAY still don't teach about the ECS :(





     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018
  6. C No Ego

    C No Ego Well-Known Member

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    1,431
    Thanks for the explanation @MinnBobber

    I've seen a great way to explain the main homeostasis role of ECS to maintain energy flow and bio-chemical signalling....

    post synaptic inhibition of neurotransmitter release ( retrograde signalling)...

    here is an older video explaining it
    Visualization of the endocannabinoid signaling system.
    Click to play YouTube Video
     
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  7. archangelz001

    archangelz001 FIRE!!

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    @nosmoking, I'm a retired RN with almost 40 years experience working in acute care facilities as both a critical care nurse (ICU, ER) and in IT as a Clinical Systems Analyst. Tell your wife she needs to educate herself because there are still few nursing or medical schools that teach about the ECS. However the evidence for and information about it is ubiquitous.

    We (RNs) have our own association - American Cannabis Nurses Association: https://cannabisnurses.org/

    Then look here for "The Endocannabinoid System: What Nurses Need to Know": https://nursemanifest.com/2015/07/1...53504495480970&fb_action_types=news.publishes

    And take a look at this site: http://cannabisclinicians.org/

    Research? She wants research? The International Cannabinoid Research Society: http://www.icrs.co/

    A cardiologist's experience: http://illegallyhealed.com/heres-why-a-cardiologist-took-a-second-look-at-cannabis/

    Position statement of the ANA: http://www.nursingworld.org/MainMen...Use-of-Marijuana-and-Related-Cannabinoids.pdf

    There is much, much more. She just needs to educate herself because neither nursing nor medical schools knew, or taught a thing about the endocannabinoid system 15 years ago.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018
  8. grokit

    grokit well-worn member

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    I like this from pubmed as an introductory medical overview of the ECS in a short paragraph:
    "The endocannabinoid system consists of G-protein coupled cannabinoid receptors that can be activated by cannabis-derived drugs and small lipids called endocannabinoids, plus associated biochemical machinery (precursors, synthetic and degradative enzymes, transporters). The endocannabinoid system in the brain primarily influences neuronal synaptic communication, and affects biological – functions including eating, anxiety, learning and memory, growth and development – via an array of actions throughout the nervous system."

    The ECS is hard to explain in simple terms (to us simple folk ;)) because of its extreme complexity:
    "On 29 March 2001, a review titled ‘The neurobiology and evolution of cannabinoid signalling’ was published in Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society. It was the first review on cannabinoid signalling to be published in this journal...by the end of 2011, the PubMed database had over 11,000 articles that could be found using the search term ‘cannabinoid’. Clearly, it is no longer feasible to comprehensively review this field of research in a journal article. Even a large book devoted to cannabinoid biology could not cover the range of papers on this topic."

    See what she says to that, @nosmoking :tup:!

    :cool: We can't forget the wiki overview of the ECS as a whole either:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endocannabinoid_system

    :myday:
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2018
  9. MegaMan2k

    MegaMan2k Well-Known Member

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    247
    its not that we lack researche or evidence that cannabis works medicinally

    Some peoples minds are just simply closed to the subject and do Not want to Education them self on the matter.


    There will allways be people like this guy ;
    https://boldanddetermined.com/marijuana/

    Spreading some false information to the youth god job victor


    This made me laugh hard

    No, the world would not be a better place if everybody smoked a joint. If everybody smoked marijuana we would live in a world of retarded criminals. Just like in Denver…
     
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  10. C No Ego

    C No Ego Well-Known Member

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    what did I just click? I guess actual realization of endocannabinoid system to someone like on that site would be a major world revolution moment for them!~ Damn what a closed off mind that was... reeling in back to myself and truth of mind here....

    @grokit that is what I'm sayin man thanks for clarifying and making it as simple as possible...
     
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  11. MegaMan2k

    MegaMan2k Well-Known Member

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    Haha im sorry C noEgo i agree that link should almost have some kind of warning "before clicking"..

    But also, the fact that there is like 100s of people in comments agreeing with this person and his views, its pretty sad they all just really need to be educated on the subject.
    And im sure even they would find some use in the herb.
     
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  12. C No Ego

    C No Ego Well-Known Member

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    1,431
    ECS Plug-

    her is a new article I found explaining the process and how lipids drive the whole system. there are quite a few references from that article and similar etc.... those Bio-active lipids

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5656721/

    Interplay Between n-3 and n-6 Long-Chain Polyunsaturated Fatty Acids and the Endocannabinoid System in Brain Protection and Repair

    and one of the articles that lead me to understand the endocannabinoid system more... same type info as above

    http://themodern.farm/studies/Omega-3 Deficiancy Abolish Endocannabinoid Function.pdf
     
  13. grokit

    grokit well-worn member

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    That's a heavy article, the way it starts out about how obesity is created by the western diet, and how obesity creates in-utero malnutrition with 'unpredictable results' for their progeny. My brain automatically goes, hmm... I wonder if that's on purpose, or a happy accident for the people that want a controllable and predictably-voting type of population, the same kinda folks that wanna fluoridate our water supplies.

    Oh and it brings up an old weird kinda mental block for me, how can an acid be a fat. I guess it's from my kitchen training, making buckets of salad dressing. There must be an emulsifier involved somewhere...

    Also cannabinoids, haven't gotten that far yet lol it's really long but this stuff is complicated. I believe that knowledge about the ecs has been suppressed for as long as possible, because figuring it out would mean too much wellness, like fungal diseases it would affect stocks & profits; we can't have well people!

    :tinfoil::worms:
     
  14. C No Ego

    C No Ego Well-Known Member

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    it is all the acids that help with metabolism of the lipids.... otherwise it's just stuck lipids with no bio-activity LOL... one way I see it- the lipid is the fuel and the enzymes / acids are the bio-machinery to utilize that fuel... like adding fuel int the engine and all the parts of the engine break the fuel down...
     
  15. grokit

    grokit well-worn member

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    I bet there's also a sugar reaction upstream. In my own body I've found that where fats/lipids are used for energy/fuel, that there is a previous reaction where sugars are the catalyst that gives the enzymes/acids the energy to further use the fats for fuel. Nothing scientific, just an observation from eating ice cream with a persistent poly-fungal biofilm inside of me, and then repeatedly suffering the health consequences.

    :shrug:
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
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  16. C No Ego

    C No Ego Well-Known Member

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    just reading this
    "
    • Saccharolipids describe compounds in which fatty acids are linked directly to a sugar backbone, forming structures that are compatible with membrane bilayers. In the saccharolipids, a sugar substitutes for the glycerol backbone that is present in glycerolipids and glycerophospholipids. The most familiar saccharolipids are the acylated glucosamine precursors of the Lipid A component of the lipopolysaccharides in Gram-negative bacteria. Typical lipid A molecules are disaccharides of glucosamine, which are derivatized with as many as seven fatty-acyl chains. "
    form here http://www.bionity.com/en/encyclopedia/Lipid.html and thought of your post @grokit .... and this part of the ECS http://www.bionity.com/en/encyclopedia/Eicosanoid.html explains how essential fatty acids form into endocannabinoids.... hope this answers some of your questions and my own

    " In biochemistry, eicosanoids are signaling molecules made by oxygenation of twenty-carbon essential fatty acids, (EFAs). They exert complex control over many bodily systems, mainly in inflammation or immunity, and as messengers in the central nervous system. The networks of controls that depend upon eicosanoids are among the most complex in the human body."
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2018
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  17. OldNewbie

    OldNewbie Well-Known Member

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    1,411
    It has been told to many students:
    Fat burns in the flame of carbohydrates.

    You need sugar to burn the fat.

    http://www.namrata.co/fats-burn-in-the-flame-of-carbohydrates/
     
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  18. asdf420

    asdf420 Well-Known Member

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    Except on ketosis? But not on a normal metabolic state?

    I haven't learned much... cannabinoids binds to the endocannabinoid receptors in the brain, somehow, and they change shit around. How does "homeostasis" happen? Just a fancy word for balance? To achieve such a balance, are we just messing with different strains until it feels okay? Sort of "reprogramming" our bodies, or something like that?
     
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  19. C No Ego

    C No Ego Well-Known Member

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    1,431
    Glutumate, cb2 monitors glutumate and cb1 monitors calcium
    homeostasis means that each cell with all of its biological function stays in balance with all other cells. the bio-chemical process of each cell communicating with all the others to maintain the organism ( human)..

    cannabinoids are molecules that direct the biological functioning of the cell... these molecules monitor influx of calcium and glutumate on an intracellular level and they are known as messenger molecules..

    the cell has a phospholipid bi-layer as the membrane... the lipophilic nature of cannabinoids and the size of cannabinoids allow them to effortlessly slip in and out of those membranes and message to the interior of the cell...

    a ligand gated / voltage gated channel is formed on the cell surface ( cannabinoid receptor) to accept the cannabinoid and enzymatic Amides metabolically adjust cannabinoid metabolism as the cannabinoid travels from the extracellular space into the interior of the cell.

    cannabinoids are the only messengers to travel in retrograde fashion... they travel from post synaptic to pre synaptic allowing a feedback loop ( Bi-phasic ) . all other messenger molecules go one direction only.

    after cannabinoid penetration of the phospholipid bi-layer the endoplasmic reticulum exists in the cell as the plasma exchange... cannabinoids via PPAR, and TRPv1 exert effects on the ER

    this is in a nut shell and leaves many questions unanswered but explains it somewhat... hope it helps
     
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  20. grokit

    grokit well-worn member

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    Something like that... Cannabinoids bind to receptors (cb1/2) in our central and peripheral nervous systems, not our brains although there's obviously a huge connection between the two. We are just messing around at this point in time imo, as this is a very complex field and we're just starting to scratch the surface of it.

    Loving @C No Ego's *concise as can be* explanation above, it really is an incredibly complex nutshell :tup:

    Welcome to the discussion :worms:
     
  21. biohacker

    biohacker fully melted

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    6,891
    You can burn fat quite efficiently without carbohydrates, in fact there is no actual biological "need" for carbohydrates in the human diet. Fat and Protein yes, carb no. Unfortunately there is still way too much dogma out there.

    As for "normal" metabolic state.... "normal" actually these days is in fact "metabolically deranged", as most people are sugar burners as opposed to mainly fat burners. :2c:
     
  22. invertedisdead

    invertedisdead FC-OG

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    That's true, but you can burn fat more efficiently WITH carbohydrates. Fructose is a ketonic monosaccharide.
     
  23. biohacker

    biohacker fully melted

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    6,891
    Although I do frequently carb backload (bodybuilder), you can burn fat more efficiently with fat. You burn what you eat....and the vast majority of people don't have a problem NOT getting enough carbs. That should be the LAST thing on anyone's mind trying to lose fat IMO. Even intermittent fasting is more effective than adding carbohydrate as a "tool" to burn fat.

    Then again I personally don't feel that what "macronutrient" matters as much as much as light, water, and magnetism, but hey - I wear a tin foil hat daily! :lol: Food is simply "information" :2c:
     
  24. C No Ego

    C No Ego Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,431
    as to sugar / fat burning... I have seen mention from biochemists that ECS can take sugar and burn it like a fat...so it flips carbohydrate metabolism , maybe by attaching a lipid to the sugar or something like I showed above in the quote...

    onto this = so this is fascinating info and describes more about ECS! this is where we get into the bio-chemicals intermingling with plasma and light

    Cannabinoids go nuclear: evidence for activation of peroxisome proliferator-activated receptors
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1038/sj.bjp.0707423/full

    click the drop down box to get the full article with diagrams

    here is a quote from the study

    " The ligand-binding domain of PPARs is unusually large, and consequently, they are relatively promiscuous, being activated by a number of natural and synthetic ligands of different chemical structure, including fatty acids and eicosanoids. The unsaturated fatty acids, linolenic acid, linoleic acid, petroselinic acid and arachidonic acid, are particularly good activators of PPARs, with EC50 values in the 2–20 μM range (Kliewer et al., 1997). The eicosanoids 15-deoxy-Δ-l2,14-prostaglandin J2 and 8(S)-hydroxyeicosatetraenoic acid (8(S)-HETE) interact with PPARs with an EC50 of approximately 500 nM (Kliewer et al., 1997). By contrast, most synthetic ligands of PPARs have EC50 values in the low nanomolar range (Seimandi et al., 2005). It is of note that the chemical structures of clinically used PPAR ligands and those of cannabinoids vary greatly (see Figure 1). "

    And

    " The majority of cannabinoid ligand effects are thought to be mediated via cell surface receptors; there are two well-established seven-transmembrane (7TM) cannabinoid receptors (CB1 and CB2), with a further 7TM orphan receptor (GPR55) and the transmitter-gated channel transient receptor potential vanilloid type-1 receptor as additional sites of action. PPARs are sensors of fatty acid levels and, as endocannabinoids are fatty acid derivatives, it is not surprising that an increasing body of evidence now suggests that endocannabinoids activate PPARs, and this may mediate many of the biological effects of cannabinoids including anti-inflammatory actions, feeding behaviour and analgesia (see Table 1). This review will describe the literature implicating cannabinoid-mediated PPAR effects, discuss potential mechanisms of action, the future implications of this research and will highlight some outstanding research questions in this new area. "


    this type article is explaining Gene transcription and cannabinoid effects
     
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  25. invertedisdead

    invertedisdead FC-OG

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    Judging by the caloric density of most foods eaten on the standard American diet, I would argue people have no problem getting enough fat, as only high fat food can put 2000 calories in the palm of your hand. That is just not possible with carbohydrates. Most food criticized for being high carb is a misnomer, and generally a near equal combination of fats and carbohydrates, like pizza, french fries, cookies, shortcakes, brioche bread, bagel + cream cheese, bacon and egg sandwiches, orange chicken + fried rice, spaghetti + meatballs, baked potato with sour cream and cheddar cheese, chili with cornbread, waffles with peanut butter; the list goes on.

    It's just not so black and white that carbs are carbs, or fat is fat, or weed is weed.

    It's fairly well accepted in the tin foil hat health club that what doesn't work for long term is the combination of fats and carbohydrates, that's why people see success when they go keto. And they would see similar weight loss and improved health on high carb if they actually tried it. And by high carb I mean 80-90% carbs, as practiced by the longest living civilizations in the world.

    I LOVE talking about water but I guess we're getting off topic. I think I got some pretty compelling info on the water found inside of certain carbohydrate sources though if you're a fan of organically mineralized alkaline structured water :brow:

    Research biophotons!
     

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