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DIY Bulli Vaporizer

Discussion in 'DIY' started by Pipes, May 16, 2012.

  1. Dan Morrison

    Dan Morrison Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    616
    @enjiatt , Ah yes, that makes sense. I like that thought... how it's not just the coil itself, but all of the variables working in unison. Paves the way for so many different setups, where there is no right or wrong, or ultimate setup, just different setups that appeal to different people.

    I have read the thread, but as I understand it, the new TC chips are really helping to give a much more even ABV, avoiding black spots and overheating the coil.

    But could you potentially build a regulated box, with OKR 20 for example, and use a linear slide pot to control the coil in real time with your thumb. So you could get a sort of manual TC going... which would both drop the price of a box, and save space.. also avoids the need to "trick" the chip.

    This is what I am picturing,

    [​IMG]

    It would be easier to control a knob like this one-handed, vs. a rotating one.

    I imagine that you could move the slider up or down as you draw.

    But i do realize it would come with a learning curve and other downsides I'm not thinking of...
     
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  2. nondarb

    nondarb .

    Messages:
    727
    I didn't say they weren't, in fact my last post was about the little chimney build doing well with no glowing necessary? Able to rip through bowls in 3-4 hits, very comparable performance to my nano.

    I just know now that the 3.1 (and similar) decks arent ideal to build on since there is so much unnecessary metal. I'll be happy when my minis get here, I'm fairly certain the chimney build is or near the pinnacle of my 3.1 experiments. In the mean time I'm trying to find tubing for a few project decks of my own. I'm satisfied the deck itself is wholly superior even if a little more difficult to mount a coil on.
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2016
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  3. StonerSloth

    StonerSloth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    127

    Yep, the problem is definitely all of the unnecessary metal. Unfortunately the Kayfun Mini 2.1 also has needlessly thick walls that rob a bunch of heat and can definitely burn the shit out of you after a session!

    My day-to-day Bulli setup uses a tiny 22awg (280 mm2, 0.32 ohm) coil and it can really complete with most of my other larger coils except for maybe the 780 mm2 monster (which comes with a huge battery tax for minimal increase in performance.)

    I am pretty sure that the main reason is its extremely lightweight design. I think I would get better results with an insulated oven but my portable setup with no insulation is sooo tiny and discreet and looks 100% exactly like a stainless atomizer and is essentially unbreakable and the whole thing can fit inside a little airtight storage travel tube which most of these other monsters cannot.

    Did I mention I love the Bulli???????

    @enjiatt - I love that side-by-side TC box mod but I wonder if it is more conspicuous than a more "recognizable" standard box mod??
     
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  4. nondarb

    nondarb .

    Messages:
    727
    .. DIY 510 MFLB?
    [​IMG]
    Accidentally shorted it really bad right off the start hence the discoloration. My first attempt had two individual wires like the LB's rods but it didn't work?

    This one worked, no need to glow but the edges still got too hot. Super crude as is but a definite proof of concept. Made from a failed coil pulled strait(ish)!
     
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  5. enjiatt

    enjiatt Active Member

    Messages:
    82
    @nondarb Im sorry I ready that completely wrong lol. Sorry I test these vapes way too often. I tried to get away from the chimney setup but then realized how the coil making the air hot and dense in a concentrated area is really important. It forced me to get better and making coils lol. I really like the 3.1 deck. i like the orchid v6 one too because the chimney is 15mm instead. I looks for tubing but it was more expensive then what I was willing to spend lol.

    @Dan Morrison the best part about this is that you dont have to have a learning curve. And the think about tc is that the variable is constantly changing. That is a lot of electronics working. The reason I like this with the mod personally is because smoking isnt super acceptable where I am and places I go so having a vape that looks like a normal atomizer keeps it more hidden. To be honest someone could get a DNA 40 board and take the casing from a vape like the firewood or something and stick the dna 40 board in there and probably have a pretty nice substance only vape. (which would also be super accurate)

    @StonerSloth thats true now that i think about it looking like a regular ecig. I have finally stopped building and I can stick to testing for a while now :-). I have stuck with the 3 setups.

    • Kayfun 3.1 , mini 2.1 top section wit 0.164 ohm SS316L 18 gauge coil (with DNA200)
    • Bulli with .212 ss 316L 18 Gauge coil (With IPV5)
    • Kayfun 3.1 with mini 2.1 bottom section and the little ego chimney thing .235 ohm coil (with RX200)
    I like using glass for taste but the Arizer caps seem to cook quicker and more even.
     
  6. Pipes

    Pipes Addicted DIY Enthusiast Accessory Maker

    Messages:
    1,883
    Location:
    Southern Ontario
    If you really want to pursue the conduction road, I used a Gala drip atomizer. Pried out the two ground posts and installed two small washers to pinch the SS screening. I used the SS mesh I had on hand. #300 mesh..? Can't remember. Pinched the outer portion with the tube itself by removing one of the two Orings.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    The problem is the resistance is not linear from the + post to the - outer ring. Making the resistance less the closer to the post you get. Thus, makes the inner portion get away hotter then the outside. In fact, when I was testing the resistance changed very little as the inside was bright red hot and quickly diminished towards the outside. Failing the practicality for any TC use. The measured room temp resistance was .05 Ohm hanging right on the border of the mod going into protection mode.
    This is something I was wondering about when @Dan Morrison posted about that paper on that round heater element. Highly suspect the same drawback may exist using it as well..?
    Was kind of tossing the idea around about using some SS mesh in a cylinder configuration. One end pinched inward to go between washers on the post and the other end cut and bent outward to clamp onto the outer cylinder the same as my first attempt.
    Anywho, I had abandoned the idea. Maybe one of you guys can can pick it up...;)
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2016
  7. Dan Morrison

    Dan Morrison Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    616
    @Pipes , In that paper they actually discuss that exact problem and provide some solutions. One solution they stated would be to have the disc of mesh material greater thickness near the center post, becoming gradually thinner at the edges.

    They also had some neat temperature readings from the air flowing through the tube, showing that the center of the tubes airflow was hotter than the edges. So in a vaporizer context, it could lead to an uneven vape with a central hot spot.

    Did you ever try to draw air through the screen, using it as a convection setup rather than your intended conduction?

    @enjiatt , That makes a lot of sense, Thanks you!
     
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  8. Pipes

    Pipes Addicted DIY Enthusiast Accessory Maker

    Messages:
    1,883
    Location:
    Southern Ontario
    Conduction was what I actually had in mind. Interesting about the thicker towards the center for compensation of ohms. Was going to try doubling up the mesh for a couple mils out from the post. Too low in resistance though, won't work with the mesh and addy I have. Had even drilled out the grounding post hole to have the air come from the bottom. But dropped it as the center was just getting away too hot. Like a focus point almost. Could see it holding up for long and didn't want that heat to travel down the post and into my mod.
    Still have the cylinder thing in my head. Adding a second washer at the top that the inside diameter equals the outside lower washer attaching to post. Thus, making it a perfect cylinder. 3/4 inch long would be about right.? Could be rigged for TC convection with the use of barrier screen, TC conduction by using the cylinder directly and, if mash easy to change, even concentrates...? Dam it, now you got me pondering again...LOL
     
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  9. KeroZen

    KeroZen Chronic vapaholic

    Messages:
    1,922
    Location:
    On Air
    Don't know where to post it or if you guy already read it as it's rather old news, but this research article had me worrying again: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3603976/pdf/pone.0057987.pdf

    (if the link is dead the title is "Metal and silicate particles including nanoparticles are present in electronic cigarette cartomizer fluid and aerosol")

    The annoying part is that they find Nickel and Chromium (as well as Iron) particles and they come from the coil itself (Iron must come from the "stainless steel" which was probably not stainless enough doh!)

    Apparently you don't have to come anywhere near the melting point temperatures to dislodge tiny leftover particles on the surface of all the crap metals the chinese offer us. I wouldn't be surprised if the same study using a titanium coil would find, well, titanium in the aerosol... :/

    On another note while reading about different coils and al, I found some guy saying that you need to torch them and control the amount of oxydation, then ultimately quench them in water (at least for SS) Do you guys have more info on this technic? Do you practice it yourselves?

    Finally I'm contemplating trying a build using 99.99% silver wire. It has such a low resistance that you need a lof of coil (and hence surface area) to achieve the same ohming. But I don't know how it will oxidize, and silver poisoning is as bad as the other metals so... You can simulate it online using that well known ecig tool btw.

    PS : a quote from the foam heater thesis "An effective material for a heating element must be electrically conductive with high resistance. It also needs to be chemically stable to both oxidation and corrosion at high
    temperatures and have a high melting point." <- air, temperature but also high currents contribute to the oxidation process, and I really don't like the colors of some of the coils in this thread
     
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  10. enjiatt

    enjiatt Active Member

    Messages:
    82
    This pretty much told me to not buy cheap china crap that isn't stainless steel. This is probably why so much glass is used today. Those Chinese cartomizers freaking suck and you can easily look at it and tell that the quality isnt the safest lol. IMHO. When i rarely vape I cant even use the nicotine liquids. They destroy the back of my throat. Even the ones will very little nicotine.

    From a wire standpoint this is the reason we fill our heating chambers a lot this way we never have our heating element red hot. I was a big component of safety in concerns to our wire and eventually found out that the more wire you have in the heating element the less you have to heat it to achieve the same results.

    BTW working with silver sounds like a nightmare unless you can find a mod that has really really accurate TC that can read down to .015 and accurately fire.

    To be honest this is one of the only dry herb full convection vapes that doesn't turn red!!!!

    so if you are comfortable with vaping with the vape like the firefly (turns red), firewood (turns red), grasshopper (metal heating element) Zion, metal heating element. Then there would be much difference from this. If you use all SS I feel you should be fine or at least on the same safety level as the other vapes on the market.

    I dont know what everyone else does but I make my build and as im testing the tcr for the right temp I let the oil residue burn off. I slowly find my temp that will get things as dark as I prefer, then I push the degrees about 20 -30 degrees higher or Right to hit the dullest of reds. Once this happens I feel safe that nothing else will be coming from the wire.
     
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  11. KeroZen

    KeroZen Chronic vapaholic

    Messages:
    1,922
    Location:
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    Yes I think we agree, we want the heating element the least glowing possible. Actually under normal usage conditions the Zion heater isn't glowing at all.

    But the article is not just about cartomizers, the results about NiChrome are interesting because stainless steel also contains nickel and chromium. So the question about surface treatment (ex: torching+quenching) and possible presence of nano and larger particles due to the manufacturing process still stands.

    I re-read the first few pages of the DivineTribe attys thread and the exact same concern was raised right from the start. I don't know what to think for now and if there really is any risk or not.

    For the silver I wasn't necessarily thinking about using TC, it would be for another project using a real temperature probe. But since it's listed on that online coil computation engine and available, I imagine some people already started experimeting with it.
     
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  12. enjiatt

    enjiatt Active Member

    Messages:
    82
    @KeroZen The reasons some of these research papers are difficult for use is because we dont use coil like the Ecig community or the Wax community does. None of out product touches our heat source. So it is just essentially heat in theory. If the SS outer element is an issue for you in terms of safety then you can put glass between the coil and the chimney if you use the right glass/chimney combo. Now this would only leave the deck metal area exposed.

    i want a heating element that is either really thick or solid with high volume that would in turn be a little flatter. But i know the resistance would be tiny and would take a nice mod to control. But if we had a solid element that heated evenly then I think we could achieve great results.

    Its surprising to me that a manufacturer hasnt make a 510 vape yet. I mean they could use machines to make exact coils and even make the coils where they cant even bend. Stuff this into one of these RBA chimneys for sub ohm tanks and have a really pretty dry herb vape
     
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  13. Gator

    Gator Member

    Messages:
    14
    I would be down to start a kickstarter! On Reddit the question comes up all the time, what's the status on a 510 REAL dry herd attys? Making me think it would be a good business. The benefit of a vape you can 100% take apart is unprecedented. I think the hot spots on a wire make having wire as a heating element difficult, but not impossible. I suppose it hasn't been done becuase no one understands the value yet, over regular portables. Once it's been done once and is successful then all the Chinese knock off will come out.

    Till then I will be working on a perfect coil design lol. I still can't get a perfect vape. :(
     
    kingfisher likes this.
  14. StonerSloth

    StonerSloth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    127
    It is definitely only a matter of time until there is a mass-produced version of this Bulli vape. I would even guess that this thread has already been viewed by some mass producer of ecigs and it is already in the works.

    Once you configured a machine to wrap the coils, the coil cost drops to pennies. In the case of a bulli knock-off, the coil/deck/heating chamber/screen would be one sealed 'disposable' $5 part (mfg cost <$1.50?) to prevent people from fucking around with the coil. In the world of dry herb vapes, a user-replaceable $5 (or even $10) heating element is a game changer.

    I think the entire point of this thread and The Project (IMHO) is to sort of make this future product obsolete before it is even released - by showing the community how easy it is to build one for themselves!!!!!
    The truth is, it's not THAT easy and wrapping coils really sucks at first but you get better fast and you will probably combust a few times.



    @enjiatt - the problem with a solid heating coil is the low surface area for the air to contact. The reason the porous/sponge concept works so well is because cold air travels through all of those tiny pockets, exposing the air to so much hot metal! The same reason heatsinks have fins and the same reason it helps to have a lot of coil wire in your heating chamber!




    I do really believe that the Bulli is the best platform for these builds (thanks @Pipes!) but it is obviously one of the more expensive atomizers on the market - about $47 + shipping. I would love to find another (cheap) atomizer with the following features to see if we can drive the cost down a bit.

    • Fully SS construction
    • THIN WALLS - AS THIN AS POSSIBLE - LIGHTWEIGHT
    • 13-15mm OD
    • No chimney or tubes or anything inside the atomizer to rob heat
    • SS drip tip adapter (for use with standard 510 drip tips)
    • Separate heating chamber + oven (threaded or o-ring seal, either way is fine)
    ............Essentially, I want a Chinese Bulli but with a SS drip tip adapter...............


    Can anyone point me/us in the direction of a good candidate?????
     
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  15. E0x

    E0x Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    153
    rainbow v3 is the only thing i find at google with the search keys: bulli atomizer clone
     
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  16. StonerSloth

    StonerSloth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    127
    Good find - it looks like that would be the Rainbow Heaven Killer V3 (is that even a real product name?) check this fasttech product request thread for some pics of V2 and V3 - https://www.fasttech.com/forums/vapers/t/1542438/fasttech-can-you-please-get-the-killer-v2-or-even/1 - Here are some pics of the V1. I like the chamber but idk how I could build a coil in this thing - what would I attach the legs to??? And could I eliminate that lower 'juice control' portion?

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    There is this site in the UK which has them and also has a good video of the "Killer 705" - the authentic version of this http://www.idealvape.com/collection...killer-v1-rebuildable-cartomizer-atomizer-dct


    edit: what about this? https://www.fasttech.com/product/2202600-hotcig-diver-v2-styled-cartomizer-rba-atomizer

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2016
  17. KeroZen

    KeroZen Chronic vapaholic

    Messages:
    1,922
    Location:
    On Air
    But how often and why do you have to replace your coils?

    In the context of ecigs I can understand, they get gunked up, can burn dry, residue builds up and alters taste and if you mix different flavors I imagine you end up with a pot-pourri.

    If your coils are fat enough not to glow too much and are just in contact with air, shouldn't they last for ages? Or are the high currents and thermal cycling enough to accelerate the oxydation process, eating slowly the coil away?

    Meanwhile I played with the excellent simulator @ http://www.steam-engine.org/ and I think a silver heater, in coil form at least (ribbon or other would be better) is not going to happen. I thought I had some usable parameters that didn't require too many meters of wire but then I realized the AWG was so high the wire would have been ultra thin. It would surely glow too hot and it wouldn't be solid enough to prevent accidental shorts from happening (it would still require quite a lot of wraps and several coils in series, raising the risk of shorts even higher)

    But on the other hand I found during my research that it's a good candidate to create "legs" in a NR-R-NR configuration (the engine says those legs rob some power when they are resistive, and silver is often listed as non-resistive, even if it is technically but super low) That would surely introduce other issues around how to bind them, but it's probably better than copper legs.
     
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  18. StonerSloth

    StonerSloth Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    127

    No, the coils are fine. But in a production product, I see an exposed coil being a liability and a durability concern and that's why I envision the heater assembly as an enclosed unit that is 'replaceable' rather than 'serviceable.'
     
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  19. enjiatt

    enjiatt Active Member

    Messages:
    82
    hey guys I just order two Russian 2.0 atomizers. They have a 3mm airhole so I may not even have to drill one out!!!! The base is the same as the kayfun 3.1 so its easy to screw into!!! finally. If this works then ill use the included chimney and the EGO chimney from my mini 2.1 and I should be able to have an atomizer that looks the exact same as a regular one with drip tip and all included!!!!

    ive stuck with the arizer with modified elb hat cap. It cooks even and all the way through almost everytime. I use the bulli and the kayfun 3.1 everyday and honestly because of the ELB caps the works basically the same. The bulli is a little more stealthy though.

    BTW this setup right now is working extremely well for me.

    Click to play YouTube Video
     
  20. Bongologist

    Bongologist JoJo Woodworks Accessory Maker

    Messages:
    439
    Location:
    Mars Hotel
    Like your vids @enjiatt good ideas. Does the ELB screen setup require higher heat?
     
  21. enjiatt

    enjiatt Active Member

    Messages:
    82
    Honestly if I switch from glass to the ELB it takes 10 or 20 degrees F. more to get the same result but now it is even cooking. The part I like is that they are really easy to load and it keeps the overall atomizer smaller.
     
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  22. enjiatt

    enjiatt Active Member

    Messages:
    82
    SO i am really confused about airflow!!!!!

    Right now while I wait for my Russian 2.0 I am playing around with 20 gauge wire and the Orchid v6.

    It has 2 2mm air intake holes coming from the bottom and has the same kayfun chimney setup.

    If I dont have any holes cut on the chimney then It will take a considerable amount of heat for me to be able to vape.

    But right when I add two air slits its like a magic trick and this is when I get nice consistent vapor. Im just confused as to why the dual 2mm air intake holes wouldnt vape correctly at the lower temp.

    its like the heat gets stuck at the bottom if I dont have intake holes on the side. Even if i intake considerably harder. It still wont vape at a low temp unless I have air holes on the chimney.

    anybody else notice this??
     
  23. enjiatt

    enjiatt Active Member

    Messages:
    82
    Stayed tuned for the show down. multiple tests E-nano

    kayfun 3.1 with glass pieces and standard chimney with food grade silicon. using standard ELB as herb chamber. works great even with small amounts.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  24. Dan Morrison

    Dan Morrison Well-Known Member Manufacturer

    Messages:
    616
    Im excited to see your results!!
     
    Bongologist likes this.
  25. enjiatt

    enjiatt Active Member

    Messages:
    82
    So I Had been using a chimney all the way to the elb cap and I was able to get nice results at 485F but it just wasnt as good as I knew it could be. I started playing with no water so that the pressure was different and I still didnt like it. So I took the long mini 2.1 chimney off and put on the original 3.1 chimney that is cut and after turning it all the way up to 550F I get great density and very good evenness even with small amounts. i can tell alot of the herb is being cooked at the same time.

    I love keck clips. They hold everything together nice. I have some metal ones coming in soon hopefully.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Both vapes are performing great. I May need to do a slower draw and the first hit of the DIY vape.

    Both vapes taste great. E-nano gets really dense right away. (It vapes through that first layer great.)
    The kayfun seems to vape a little more even but A tiny bit slower on the first drag but is also very dense.

    Click to play YouTube Video


    Next test i will not stir and i will rotate the stem on each vape while drawing. either 2 or 3 hits
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2016
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