Davinci by Karma

[OF]

I think you misunderstand me OF. I am not saying that some plastics aren't safe with heat, nor that I am certain the DV is harmful like a burning Pez dispenser.

I do believe some units are off-gassing "something". People are sending these defective units back, but we haven't heard anything. This is the ignoring the issue I am talking about.

I certainly do not think Karma is trying to kill a bunch of people with a toxic vaporizer. Far from it, I think they want to be a real player in the vape market.

Thanks very much for the corrections. However, please note your original statement contained no qualifiers, like the "some" you just used. Nor did it leave much margin for outgasing non toxic vapor. I'm pretty confident that almost all such outgassing, while perhaps not pleasant, is not toxic in the normal sense. Nobody is going to get poisoned this way like our young fool and his Pez dispenser. Just because you smell something you don't like doesn't mean it's toxic or the maker is irresponsible.

Some folks have smells they don't like, this is not uncommon. Both Omicron carts and TV heaters have had similar issues and neither has plastics involved. In the cases where owners object, the maker is quickly replacing them 'no questions asked'. They now own the 'defective' units (which I suspect are contaminated with routine junk from our daily lives?), they owe nobody any further explanations IMO. Yes, it would be nice of them to tell us when they know what's up but IMO they are under no legal or moral obligations here any more than THC has to disclose their problems. I understand others may feel differently. You get a lot of "XXX needs to YYY" posts, when folks meant to say "I think XXX should YYY". I'm not sure where this comes from, it seems to be part arrogance and part attempting to 'teach granny to suck eggs'.

Just to be clear, IMO their obligations ended when they replaced the units and made the owner happy. Because they don't feel like responding to 'what's going on?' doesn't mean they're avoiding anything to me automatically. They might not know for sure (how would you figure this out if you didn't think it smelled all that bad and it passed all QC requirements?), might not know yet or might just consider it their dirty laundry to be washing in private. They might be hiding something of course, but that's speculation, not fact. Big difference. While they had a contractual obligation to deliver the goods described for the price paid, they have no obligations at all to any of us who haven't a dog in the fight. None. That's how the law works. Sometimes we forget their rights (real rights in fact) in our rush to get what we (wrongly) feel are our 'rights'.

We both agree it's an interesting product and the maker seems to have a white hat (at least so far), we just disagree a bit in some of the details seems to me. I think some guys are getting a little carried away with speculations and high handed 'advice' on how someone else should handle their business. Nobody has shown anything toxic, let alone carcinogenic is going on, just some taste (or even it seems vapors below taste threshold?) they don't like. No, make that some are lecturing them on what they have to do. IMO this is a bad tactic, nobody likes to be lectured to or told what to do.....especially from guys that might not have all the facts.

Not saying you are on that tact, just using your post as an example, no offense intended. For sure as long as folks stay civil, opinions are a good thing to express.....but I think a guy should stand ready to defend them?

I'm looking forward to getting my unit and forming some observations of my own....which I plan to bore one and all with when I have something worth saying. Until then, all I have is opinions as well, FWIW.

Thanks again for the clarification, it does read differently now.

OF

 

[stickstones]

well...since we're drawing lines and choosing sides, put me on greyarea's side of the fence.

Karma may not owe current customers anything, but they still need to generate new sales. And I, for one, am not interested in something that could be producing a vapor of which I do not know the composition. I don't care if it's only in 0.1% of the cases...that's still too many for an unknown. Now, if they can come out and say what it was and that, in fact, it's not even toxic when present, then I'm interested. But I know too little and there are too many other options out there for me to take this risk. imo, we are well beyond this kind of risk in the vaporizer industry. My Cloud has an airpath in it that is pristine and makes this kind of stuff literally impossible. The mflb is transparent. I'm not interested in being in the dark and there is no reason to be in this day and age of vaporizers.

fwiw, we no longer live in a society that deserves the benefit of the doubt. Our leaders are expected to lie and keep everything on a need to know basis that is dollar driven. I don't know Karma and have nothing against them, but they have to earn and prove a reputation of integrity, not receive it for free. At least that's how I see it.

 

[suhbliem]

. They now own the 'defective' units (which I suspect are contaminated with routine junk from our daily lives?), they owe nobody any further explanations IMO.

So you were on Bayer's side when they knowingly sold Aids infected aspirin in south america after it was rejected by the FDA and they were forced to recall it in South America after thousands of customer complaints? They got their defective aids aspirin back so they owe no explanation to the public or the poeple already effected? Or when Firestone had that defective batch of tires on Ford Explorers in the mid 90s that would cause tires to burst on the freeway. Well they recalled their equipment AND they gave an explanation to the national public. Could you imagine if Firestone and Ford did not explain themselves under the logic of "well its ours now so tough luck I'm not telling you why it happened."

This is no different. People are being effected by this and the only difference is the results of inhaling these vapors won't be known for 20-30 years down the road. The guys in vietnam being sprayed with agent orange at the time thought it was no big deal. Ask that same veteran today what he thinks about agent orange...he probably has cancer or diabetes or both.

They owe it us to explain their product. There is no logic that says otherwise. It really sounds like you work for the company man or they buttered you up with a free DV. Always giving them the benefit of the doubt despite so many claims and evidence and the lack of explanation from their end after a couple months of this issue surfacing. It doesn't add up. Any rational person would demand an explanation from the company especially considering it is one of the most expensive portables out there right now. Benefit of the doubt was for the 40s and 50s. We live in a cut throat corporate military government machine now willing to mow down its own citizens to meets its ends. (i.e. 9/11, Afghanastan, Iraq, Persian Gulf War, Vietnam, WWII, Korean War). You must question everything b/c everything is questionable nowadays. Doing anything but - especially considering the lack of oversight in our world, is just plain foolish.

 

[Stu]

I'd love to know that everything I use in life is 100% operating-room clean, but that's just not how life is, unfortuately. I saw the mystery vapors, and I made a judgement call for myself and in doing so weighed the risks for myself. I ain't dead yet, but from the sounds of things coming from this thread I should soon get aids, cancer, and diabetes simultaneously very soon..... so I got that goin' for me.

On a lighter note, the DaVinci is an awesome vaporizer for the golf course. I went out with some buddies yesterday and it was so easy to just fire up a bowl on the tee, pass it around on the tee box and then continue tossing between golf carts all the way down the fairway. Try doing that with a Solo! The auto shutoff would kick in right about the time we reached the green. It worked flawlessly and I got 3 buddies pretty damn stoned on the golf course and proceeded to take all their money in side bets (sometimes it pays off to have a high tolerance ).

As I've mentioned many times already in this thread, the taste isn't the best in the world and the vapor can be harsh.... but in a pinch it sure can medicate quickly and easily.

Now I need to get on the phone and break the bad news to my golfing buddies that they're all gonna die soon. Oh well..... we had a nice run.

 

[suhbliem]

I'd love to know that everything I use in life is 100% operating-room clean, but that's just not how life is, unfortuately. I saw the mystery vapors, and I made a judgement call for myself and in doing so weighed the risks for myself. I ain't dead yet, but from the sounds of things coming from this thread I should soon get aids, cancer, and diabetes simultaneously very soon..... so I got that goin' for me.

On a lighter note, the DaVinci is an awesome vaporizer for the golf course. I went out with some buddies yesterday and it was so easy to just fire up a bowl on the tee, pass it around on the tee box and then continue tossing between golf carts all the way down the fairway. Try doing that with a Solo! The auto shutoff would kick in right about the time we reached the green. It worked flawlessly and I got 3 buddies pretty damn stoned on the golf course and proceeded to take all their money in side bets (sometimes it pays off to have a high tolerance ).

As I've mentioned many times already in this thread, the taste isn't the best in the world and the vapor can be harsh.... but in a pinch it sure can medicate quickly and easily.

Now I need to get on the phone and break the bad news to my golfing buddies that they're all gonna die soon. Oh well..... we had a nice run.

lol we needed some comic relief, well done. but seriously... you will die

 

[Stu]

lol we needed some comic relief, well done. but seriously... you will die

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but you will too.


Edit: I feel this thread is in need of some Bukowski:

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
― Charles Bukowski

 

[Slightly Medicated]

I feel like it is more dangerous for me to drive on the freeway than it is for me to use the DaVinci. Just saying...

 

[suhbliem]

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but you will too.


Edit: I feel this thread is in need of some Bukowski:

“For those who believe in God, most of the big questions are answered. But for those of us who can't readily accept the God formula, the big answers don't remain stone-written. We adjust to new conditions and discoveries. We are pliable. Love need not be a command nor faith a dictum. I am my own god. We are here to unlearn the teachings of the church, state, and our educational system. We are here to drink beer. We are here to kill war. We are here to laugh at the odds and live our lives so well that Death will tremble to take us.”
― Charles Bukowski

what a great quote! fuck it! where is the heroin!!

 

[Abysmal Vapor]

Death comes for us all but something much worst comes for you - creepy vapors..
Forgot to add..The silicon stems used with the UD also seems to get brown/yellow after prolonged use although it might not be relevant , i think this is just reclaim making its path into porous environment or in scratches. Also the part where the herb is held.. is far more brown/yellow than the part touching the heating port.

 

[suhbliem]

I feel like it is more dangerous for me to drive on the freeway than it is for me to use the DaVinci. Just saying...

you are probably right man.. btw I love your you tube vids, have helped me make a lot of choices on my next vapes (cloud and pax or just pax if they make a passthrough and gong). chances are something will kill me before the davinci. if the company rep would come back and put our minds at ease this whole thing would be a non issue. I really want to use this vape, aside from the fumes it is an incredible little gadget and I loved using it until I tested for offgassing and drove me into a paranoid frenzy!!! i really liked using it on water pipes it is so small and easy to hold over an open stem.

 

[OF]

So you were on Bayer's side when they knowingly sold Aids infected aspirin in south america after it was rejected by the FDA and they were forced to recall it in South America after thousands of customer complaints?

This is no different.

They owe it us to explain their product. There is no logic that says otherwise. It really sounds like you work for the company man or they buttered you up with a free DV. Always giving them the benefit of the doubt despite so many claims and evidence and the lack of explanation from their end after a couple months of this issue surfacing.

Of course I'm not saying that, and of course that's an entirely different matter.....and you know it. Same as you really know I'm not being paid by them, nor am I getting free stuff. You just don't have a ready answer to my point of view to offer so you come off with putting wild claims in my mouth, accusing me of being dishonest and a lot of irreverent bluster about the injustices of life. I get it. You're angry.

So, where's all this evidence of toxic vapors? No, wait, didn't you say carcinogens? Which carcinogens are these? I understand you're worried, so my advice is to avoid it. IMO you should look to lower stress, not raise it. If you have suspicions, fine state them and identify them as such, but not as facts. Unless, of course, you know otherwise?

OF

 

[suhbliem]

Of course I'm not saying that, and of course that's an entirely different matter.....and you know it. Same as you really know I'm not being paid by them, nor am I getting free stuff. You just don't have a ready answer to my point of view to offer so you come off with putting wild claims in my mouth, accusing me of being dishonest and a lot of irreverent bluster about the injustices of life. I get it. You're angry.

So, where's all this evidence of toxic vapors? No, wait, didn't you say carcinogens? Which carcinogens are these? I understand you're worried, so my advice is to avoid it. IMO you should look to lower stress, not raise it. If you have suspicions, fine state them and identify them as such, but not as facts. Unless, of course, you know otherwise?

OF

evidence? how about the many many claims of fumes coming out when the chamber is empty, when the unit is brand new, how about offgassing for 2+ hours when brand new? how about the videos on youtube showing offgassing. i don't know if it is toxic, and I have said it many times now, it wouldnt be an issue if it weren't toxic, but only the manufacturer can confirm this and there has been no contact from the rep regarding this matter in a while.

I am using YOUR logic and YOUR words in CONTEXT and applying to very similar circumstances - the basic premise being transparency.

When the hell did I say carcinogens?? NEVER

I did not accuse you of anything. I suggested the idea that you must be somehow tied to them since you keep giving them the benefit of the doubt despite them not offering any facts about the gassing.

I haven't put any words in your mouth. I used your logic and asked if you still agreed with your logic by pointing out that your logic applied to similar consumer/company relations was flawed. these are words that you said "they owe us no explanation". that's what I have a beef with. your argument of the examples I pointed out being totally different is rediculous. they are exactly the same where it counts - the company issued a messed up product and was called out on it, and in both cases both companies were forced to devulge information about the causes/reasoning behind the defect and to admit that there was a problem to begin with. something karma has failed to do on both counts.

It's all a moot point and you're right I shouldn't get stressed out its very bad. It's nice to see that you are passionate about your stance as flawed as I may think it is. For that reason alone I'm going to drop this now. just for the record I'm not mad at you, I'm mad at karma. you were one of the first people to respond to my first post on the site and that was cool.

 

[OF]

evidence? how about the many many claims of fumes coming out when the chamber is empty, when the unit is brand new, how about offgassing for 2+ hours when brand new?

When the hell did I say carcinogens?? NEVER

I did not accuse you of anything. I suggested the idea that you must be somehow tied to them since you keep giving them the benefit of the doubt despite them not offering any facts about the gassing.

I haven't put any words in your mouth.

I'm sorry, I still see no evidence anything is dangerous. Some object to the taste/smell, we're told very few and I have no reason to doubt that. For sure there were enough guys saying good things about it to get me to spend my money to try it out.

Yes, you didn't use that word, but you did say "Come clean about the offgassing, the more you stall and beat around the bush, the more anxiety about your product you create. Since it is gassing at 410F+ who's to say it doesn't offgass invisible vapors at 375F? Do I want to risk getting cancer AGAIN over vaping off of some $250 portable? hell no! and that is why people are angry and want answers including me!!". I'm sorry if I read that to mean you thought there was a threat of it giving you cancer again, but it still sounds that way to me.

In a similar vein, I took "So you were on Bayer's side when they knowingly sold Aids infected aspirin in south america after it was rejected by the FDA and they were forced to recall it in South America after thousands of customer complaints?" to mean I was on Bayer's side. Silly me. I never said anything of the sort, really. I think there's a big difference between knowingly selling a dangerous product and having some customers complain about taste. And near as I can tell, so far that's all there is, complaints.

I guess in the end it's just a difference in prejudices? I tend to give folks the benefit of the doubt, not only because I was raised that way, but because it's the way I want to be treated and I believe in the Golden Rule....or Karma if you prefer? I try not to bring any more assumptions to the game than necessary, that scientist thing again I guess. You're welcome to start out assuming they're up to something I guess, it's only fair. I just see a fair bit to suggest this is not an uncommon problem (I used two examples, a third is this exact same discussion on the Puffit thread (minus the toxic worries, at least thus far) and nothing to suggest the maker knows anything they're keeping from folks. And no evidence there's anything to cover up.

In the end it's all about enjoyment. And that is where you find it.

OF

 

[Dreamerr]

OF I can't wait to hear what you think of the DV. On a sad note today my son was in my car on heat up and he said it was a strong smell. I ask again in a few minutes after I started using and he said it still smelled

 

[gatcony]

Ahhh, thank you Stu, on the 4th DV & all is now right with the world. Vaping once again! Off gassing, is that the smoke I see coming out the side? If so, it smells like escaped vapor. What's the big deal. For those in need of knowing, my bro runs a lab in Singapore that tests consumer products. He would be happy to take your money & test your toys.

 

[Stu]

OF I can't wait to hear what you think of the DV. On a sad note today my son was in my car on heat up and he said it was a strong smell. I ask again in a few minutes after I started using and he said it still smelled

Indeed when it's turned on it does smell. My buddy had turned it on in the golf cart yesterday and hadn't told me. When I was getting back in the cart I caught a strong wiff and realized quickly that my friend had loaded a bowl and fired it up before I even knew where in the cart the DV was warming up.

So, no...... I wouldn't fire it up in church unless unless it's a Rastafarian church of course. Lucky for me I don't spend much time in the pews these days...


edit: @gatcony: Glad to hear you finally got a working unit. Looks like you're safe to book that flight again.

 

[Dreamerr]

I think it was cause it is a closed area although the windows were open. I was surprised since I know I always smell it but when my kid in in my room he never does. This is what surprised me today. He was even in the back seat and said something.

 

[Slightly Medicated]

OF I can't wait to hear what you think of the DV. On a sad note today my son was in my car on heat up and he said it was a strong smell. I ask again in a few minutes after I started using and he said it still smelled

The DaVinci does smell more during operation then other vaporizers. I feel like it is due to the good airflow. Kind of a trade off. The airflow is so good that it allows the vapor that is created by conduction. The material directly against the side of the chamber does get some conduction vapor action. Since the airflow is so good that vapor can make it out of the device and in to your general area easier.

...I don't spend much time in the pews these days...

You would think if they were called pews that it would not matter if you stunk up the place.

 

[OF]

OF I can't wait to hear what you think of the DV. On a sad note today my son was in my car on heat up and he said it was a strong smell. I ask again in a few minutes after I started using and he said it still smelled

Thanks, I'm wondering how it'll shape up as well.

Sorry to hear about your son's car. Small world, today I had lunch with my BIL and a couple of friends. Jim told us about my niece's car (his 22 YO daughter). Actually, $2000 of the car is his....the part that burned up! A used Honda, six months 'old'. She was down getting something to eat when it started smelling bad and 'smoke' (steam it seems) was coming out from under the hood....so she drove it home for him to see. Nearly made it, too. Managed to melt some of the plastic stuff, musta been toasty in there. Now there's exhaust in the coolant. She's the product of a seriously expensive shiny new degree, I guess common sense isn't on the curriculum?

We joked she had 4 more years before reality sets in.

Yup, car smells like that don't just 'go away' on their own. Much as some might like it.

I hope your's turns out to be a blown head gasket like we're hoping. Beats a new engine or car.

OF

 

[Dreamerr]

It was herb smell, sorry you misunderstood. All the times I smoke in my room when he is in a chair he smells nothing. Today I was sitting in the car and waiting and smoked while waiting and he smelled it and asked if I was smoking. Hope that clears it up. I had ten minutes so figured why not re-up.

With a quicker heat up and a one or two hitter this wouldn't really be an issue at least I hope not. This why I am still watching the T1, Inhalator and maybe the pax but doubt it. If the troubles with the puffit get fixed that would still be the best bet but only if they get fixed.

 

[OF]

It was herb smell, sorry you misunderstood. All the times I smoke in my room when he is in a chair he smells nothing. Today I was sitting in the car and waiting and smoked while waiting and he smelled it and asked if I was smoking. Hope that clears it up. I had ten minutes so figured why not re-up.

Wow! Did I miss that or what? Never mind..... The niece is still a knucklehead though.

I think I can understand that, as I said I think this guy is like the Iolite and I notice mine smells as it warms up. I always figured it was releasing all the vapor that last condensed as it cooled? But for sure I smell it at least then. Like most folks, once I've had some my sense of smell takes a heavy hit. A faster warm up will no doubt help that as it seems to do with T1, MFLB and others.

I too think Puffit has great promise, perhaps a few issues to be worked out (TV stuff is the only one I can think of off hand that haven't had that?) but an interesting and useful design. Unfortunately I can't bring myself to get one due to the distributor's shameless actions. I refuse to reward such BS, even the modest bit my single purchase will make. I'll wait for a different channel to open up (maybe pay a bit more) or do without before I'll support flat out lying to customers who trust you (kind of the same issue some guys have with DV I guess?).

And FWIW, I think taking advantage of the odd ten minutes shows masterful planning on your part, feel free to quote me to the son if he doesn't quickly see the logic....

Sorry to have not paid enough attention, thanks for setting me straight (not always easy), best wishes.

OF

 

[Tim]

Wow, the price has dropped dramatically on the DV since I last checked (when I bought it when it was brand new, lol ). It can be had for $140 on Amazon, $150 on eBay. Great vape for the price, even with all my previous mentioned gripes.

However, someone was talking about black ABV and combusting in the DV. I've gotten very very dark (almost black) ABV from my DV, but mine has never combusted. (I caused combustion in my MFLB a long time ago, it was a very small amount but the device smelled gross)

However, that was when I used to set the DV to 390F-410F. Nowadays the DV gets used at around 385F and my ABV is usually a nice dark brown.

 

[OF]

However, someone was talking about black ABV and combusting in the DV. I've gotten very very dark (almost black) ABV from my DV, but mine has never combusted.

I read this thread in a couple of sittings, and I recall that post but not a lot of the details. At the time I remember thinking it was perhaps in error? Several times I've seen where guys will claim combustion when what they meant is they burned their herb. It's quite possible, I think, to get it very black without actual combustion.

Combustion is when stuff actually burns. Oxygen combining with Hydrogen (to make water) and secondarily with Carbon to make CO2. The key is both those reactions liberate a LOT of energy (the reason fire is hot), once started, a 'cherry' forms and temperatures shoot up far past the 410F the machine seems able to do. Just like happens in a bong, it goes on after the fire is removed. Same thing happened to me when I pushed my MFLB too far. I don't recall who reported it, but I wonder if that might not be the case here (it didn't actually combust, but did burn the herb)?

It was nasty when I did it on purpose with the MFLB, I remember the rapid taste change just before it went off and count on that to prevent accidents. It was nothing compared to the VG getting away unexpectedly. That was scary, something to avoid at all costs. This (ability to combust at 'full blast') is one of the things I plan to test when I get my unit next week. To me, it's worth knowing if it can happen.

OF

 

[stickstones]

I hope you guys getting new units do the off-gassing test before contaminating the units with herb.

 

[kushcabbage]

I hope you guys getting new units do the off-gassing test before contaminating the units with herb.

be the first thing to check when I get my replacement from karma