Discussion in 'Concentrates' started by FlyingLow, Apr 22, 2014.
I had read these, but case reports are far from robust medical findings with extrapolative potential. Also in each of the cases reported/cited in this article, we are talking about oral administration in very high amounts compared to the residuals which would be found in cannabis flowers. Nonetheless, no need to mess around with neem oil even if there is a chance that what happened in this case and the incidents involving children can take place in our application.
Yeah I finished the gram of neem-ey co2 wax with no ill effects.
But I'd like to keep this to an occasional accident, already told my guy I wouldn't take any more neemed out wax.
Thanks everyone for the great responses, I'm really grateful AND I learned a crapload.
Good things to everyone!
I am so glad I live in a medical state with strict standards. I can't imagine going back. God bless y'all.
Winterization with 99% iso could rid your/his product of unwanted lipids.
Two pics, first as a thanks and the second as a question.
First pic is Afghan Skunk shatter, about .25g freshly scraped. Posted to say thanks to @herbivore21 for his qwet assist.
For the second pic, it is around the edge of the pyrex dish. I always get what look like drops, they're usually rock hard. But sometimes they are a bit golden and not hard but sticky. Is that unpurged ethanol (I use Everclear 189), or just a different consistency, like not as pure?
Very curious. Also very excited - this stuff is freaking awesome, will post review later on in the what's in your vape thread when I come down from all my "testing" of this new run...
Thanks everyone in advance, and good things to everyone!
Okay, I didn't want to muck up the share that dab stash picture thread with questions, came over to my favorite safe place.
Quite a few people, including @momofthegoons and @Quetzalcoatl post pics of concentrates that I don't... even perceive the types - "live resin", "crumble", etc. Then there's something about whipping (strangely *not* from one of mom's posts) that sounds like I have been missing something (of course my Torch doesn't let me do this while vaping, maybe there's something I can do "before-hand" with my shatter to change its consistency?).
Are types of concentrates only obtained through specific extraction methods, and does it require a specific temp and rig for each type?
I did not need decarbed type stuff on the list, like earrl or oral/sublingual/tincture.
My current high-end rig (I adore the thing) is a Yocan Torch. (D-Nail next year)
I really have two noob questions that I can find *pieces* of the answers, but it's not really gelling in my mind. So I guess the questions are something like...
1. What extraction methods produce which consistencies - Like "Hey OldOyler, XX Method can produce XX Concentrate types"?
Like I do qwet, I know I can get shatter. Can I get other things? Is something extra required to get it with each method, like a vac, or agitation?
So something like a quick method to possible concentrate bullet list:
QWET - shatter and...
BHO - shatter and...
ROSIN PRESS - rosin and...
BUBBLE - bubble, crumble(?) and...
I'm miffed as to how to get budder, live resin (as opposed to rosin), etc.
Okay I won't keep going, I really am trying to figure that out for the basic extraction methods and concentrate types. So same for rosin pressing, bho, bubble (Like I think bubble is needed to make crumble? Sigh. Nooby I am...)
2. What Vape Temps are the minimum needed for those different Concentrate types?
I know my Yocan Torch runs at about 500F-ish. I have used it for co2 wax and (primarily) shatter. Is this...hot enough / not...for other types?
So like that would let me match rig type to concentrate type.
The analog D-Nail I am *really* looking forward to - I can understand 1 through 9 equalling 100s of degrees Fahrenheit - so what temps are optimal for what concentrates would make that rig pretty easy.
If I can put those two answers together, it would tell me what minimum extraction method I need to use and/or maximum range of concentrate types I can make based on my chosen method.
And one more related but separate question:
For my quick low end / backup rig, I have a full metal hitter type. Sigh. Pen battery types - I still can't find out what temp they actually "run" at. I have a Kanger VV 1600mah battery for instance. The coils tend to be 1.2ohm. What temps am I getting at 3.3 versus 4.4 is a question I can't seem to find a chart for. I can find what is "too much" or "too little" voltage to vape, but that's it. And then I DO have some 1.5ohm coils for it which I am sure change that.
I know pen battery rigs kind of suck, but for me it has been indispensable for both its portability and for being there as a backup (I have two of the Kanger batteries) but I still want to know its temp limits for concentrate types.
Sorry for such a long post.
Peace and good things to everyone!
Greetings my friend!
In similarly shaped dishes, I get similar blobs in the edges too. If it is rock hard shatter (mine was this always) then you shouldn't be too concerned about large amounts of residual ethanol - there could be some trapped inside the resin though so knowing how to purge (thin film, even heat distribution etc like I've mentioned plenty in the past) is still necessary. If they are still runny (especially if they are runny and hard to collect off of parchment - this is a very important test), you may have a residual solvent issue.
Remember that the purge does not happen perfectly evenly, any thicker deposits such as at these rounded corners where heat distribution/conductive contact is less than ideal should be expected to take longer to purge.
A lot of questions here but I can help you with most of this.
First of all, you can get budder from whipping your solvent/resin solution at the final stage of the purge (when there's no visible solvent left but it still needs purging) with a dab tool or similar to rapidly agitate and nucleate the material. This will give you that budder finish (some use a slightly hot surface to place the dish upon while whipping).
Another way to get budder is to low temp squish rosin from flower. That'll budder up very well especially if stored in high humidity conditions (70%+)! Most rosin will autobudder if it doesn't come out as budder from the press in the first place in high humidity conditions.
You can get budder from full melt hashes of all kinds by agitating them in the presence of a little moisture (with bubble, you agitate before the dry is finished) - I do not recommend this, agitation may encourage loss of terps to ambient heat.
Live resin referred to freezing plant material from a live plant at harvest (ie: cut your colas, dump them into liquid nitrogen that makes your freezer look like a cozy sauna, extract from that material - many variations on this exist). This method provides very high terpene retention for a solvent concentrate (still doesn't compete with full melt hashes but the reasons for why are a very complicated explanation that deserves it's own thread). Live resin can in some cases be as wonderful as rosin from the same variety. That's high praise for a solvent extract! In some other cases, live resin can pull some very harsh monoterps in quantities that are unappealing to some, or can have a very fresh grass/fresh green living plant matter taste which is not as enjoyable as the rich and diverse flavors we seek from cannabis (depending in no small part on the material it was extracted from). YMMV and liquid nitrogen needs to be handled, stored and treated with care since it carries some unique hazards. Do not even purchase liquid nitrogen without being very clear on all of the MSDS info on safe storage/handling etc.
Sugar wax refers to something that looks exactly like it sounds. You can also find wet sugar looking material that may be described as something similar or just sugar. The wet sugary stuff in particular is usually very high quality, high terpene stuff. Making it reliably in the ways that I know (similar to extractioneering's tek in my understanding) depends on the use of expensive lab solvents that I will not instruct anybody to store, use or have in their home as it is inappropriate in this information medium given the open-access and DIY nature of our community and health/safety risks.
You can get crumble out of just about any method too. I have never sought to produce this consistency though.
Most of the terms you discuss relate to consistencies and can be made in various ways with various techniques.
Live resin does refer to a different category of extract, just like Charas is distinct from other hashes because it is hand rubbed off of living colas off of an unharvested plant.
I tend to hit all of my material at the same temps on the nail for the most part. For a 5 star bubble, I'll jack the temp up 10-15 degrees (f) or so to speed up the initial melting phase before the vapor production starts (this is unique to full melt hash IME). 6 star will work well at the same temp as any solvent oil or rosin consistency but may take a moment to bubble up and melt before producing thick vapor for the reasons above.
I don't use any kinds of pens anymore, so can't share on best temps for pens. I prefer my Dynavap products with SS concentrate pads for portable oil now to any pens - they stay cleaner and last longer and taste just as good or better than plenty of pens, connects great to a rig too. The OG vapcap is cheaper than any pen too!
Of course, you'll be getting into an enail in the not too distant future which is better still
Peace bud, know you've been busy so WOW...you know I'm already following your in-depth qwet technique to begin with, so...
They found a new helpful thing, like even all humans could use it, called "sleep"...
Can this be used in *conjunction* with purging, as in to facilitate it as well?
If a budder consistency as opposed to shatter isn't somehow "bad", would I be moving solvent out of the material at the end of purge better, worse, or the same? (Dude, you KNOW I'm asking because I'm dying so use my new Oil Slick pad...!)
Now about "budder":
Honestly, even if it *visually* gave me a difference when vaping, I would like to try and get some of this from a qwet run. I get a lot of the same strain when I obtain it, so it would be nice to at least trick myself into feeling like I had a change.
So any tips from anyone on the specific technique, it seems it would be not too complicated. It's just that I've only seen budder in the dab stash thread pictures - never in person. So I'm not 100% sure what consistency I am looking for, how to know "not enough" versus "too much / too fast" agitation, etc.
Which would be the temperature of...
Peace and good things to everyone!!!
Help me help me please. In gamer's terms...
I'm only an apprentice, and I've summoned a Shatter Sugar Guardian. Please help before Master Neloth (herbivore21) finds out!
Purged qwet on Oil Slick pad, expected to simply pry of pieces. But what I have is like fine brown sugar. It'll collect, but...into a pile of sugar.
I'll vape it but how, dump spoonfuls into my coil?
Anyway, stopped light scraping almost immediately, I kept searching FC but saw heat and cold both as possible fixes, don't want lose what looks to be a good gram and some change of some really pure shatter.
Thanks in advance, and peace!
Some of the scraped results:
Oil Slick Pad:
Interesting, I'd had the same idea about either using liquid nitrogen, or vacuum bags with a nitrogen flush to stock my samples in the freezer. Standard protective clothing, faceguard if you go the liquid nitrogen route no doubt!
Man you also ideally need an oxygen measurement device, safe containers for storage of liquid nitrogen (with pressure release valves etc as approved by your local regulator). Do not store or work with nitrogen in enclosed spaces.
Do not work with nitrogen in spaces that do not have air ventilation (exhaust ventilation is required both up high and down low, nitrogen has a specific gravity very similar to air - when it is released cold, it will settle/sink down low, when hotter, it may rise) that replaces the internal air frequently enough to avoid any build-up of nitrogen. Yes, nitrogen is an inert gas, but it will kill you stone dead if you breathe too much of it in - nitrogen displaces oxygen. Liquid nitrogen sublimates into a very high volume of nitrogen gas and can quickly displace oxygen to the point that you are breathing in less oxygen than you need to function - or live!
In the worst case scenario, in an enclosed space with poor ventilation, nitrogen release occurs (or a storage vessel vents due to the internal failsafe pressure release/rupture disc mechanism) in sufficient levels without your knowledge, you have a literal room of death. Less than 6% oxygen means that you won't even have time to realize that you have fashioned a tomb for yourself. You can die in seconds from asphyxiation in this situation. Even where there are higher levels of oxygen but below the OSHA minimums (OSHA require levels ~19.5% or so minimum of oxygen IIRC), you can quickly start to lose cognitive functioning and risk asphyxiation because you do not have your wits about you enough to realize the environment is unsafe and you are experiencing signs of oxygen deficit.
Nitrogen is a regular component of the air we breathe and actually is often manufactured by fractional distillation of the nitrogen from collected samples of air! The poison is in the dosage though, like with all things!
In the event of a room having too little oxygen due to nitrogen leak/sublimation/venting, remember that if it is cold nitrogen, it will settle down low in the room. If you bend down to pick something up or access a low shelf or something, that could asphyxiate you where standing and quickly leaving the room may not.
Do not enter a room where a person has succumbed to oxygen deficient air in this scenario unless you are a trained emergency responder with appropriate protective gear (PLEASE KEEP RELEVANT PHONE NUMBERS ON HAND FOR THESE GUYS!). This can very quickly lead to you and anyone else who enters the room trying to save somebody succumbing to the same.
This is information intended to get people STARTED with nitrogen safety. You MUST read any relevant MSDS and heed the precautions advised there and where possible, it is helpful to consult with the vendor about any additional recommendations for safe storage, handling and use.
@OldOyler ah yes my friend you are witnessing the superior heat retention and even distribution of heat of silicone vs glass. This dried your material out (which was in a very thin film indeed!) quicker than you expected and so left you with crystalline dust. You need a shovel like tool for this kind of material, but there is no way around it - this consistency is much harder to use with a vape pen. Much better to just dab with a shovel tool.
You might consider heating your silicone pad to 140f and pouring the sugar on top of it, the sugar should be able to melt back into a cohesive whole again. Try get a thicker slab rather than a thin slab, the thinner the layer, the more you are overpurging rather than just heating enough to get the sugar to melt together into one piece. Then place the silicone on a cold pack and gently try to pry the whole slab off of the mat in one lift
Too funny, bud - considering the original problem you helped me with was incomplete purging...!
I primarily use a Yocan Torch, so it's not too awful to dump a spoonful of sugar in and vape it. Coil is perfectly clean when done, too strange!
I did notice there are no "slow drop off of vapor" hits at the end. I'll just suddenly see little to no vapor and bam, I taste quartz.
So, it's a little strange to have like 4-5 super dense pulls (that's with the Torch button on and off almost as fast as I can do it) then done.
How is silicone with air-drying, hb? (The fan 3-ft away method, dish covered in cheesecloth)
My larger purge dish will finally be here tomorrow (15 x 9), pyrex pie plates were 8" so hoping to be able to do glass-only (so silicone pad) run using just air-drying and my new super-duper scraping tools when done.
I think I have over-reacted to having had purge problems before, now too much air-drying AND a second long heat spike (did an hour today at 140F just trying to get it cohesive enough to be crystal and not complete dust!). But doing these small runs (1/4oz at a time) is helping me have enough confidence to actually keep pushing until I get my concentrate making where I want it.
First not purged enough, now...too long. But I've got a great guide, so bring it. OldOyler. Will. Know. Shatter. Making.
"Know" in a biblical way if need be...
Now where's that Everclear...? Lemme get into something wayyyy over my head...!
Peace hb and everyone, I will be having a busy qwet week I can see! I'll take the rest of the night off for...uh, testing. Yeah, testing the results...
lol, guess I thought the atmospheric issues were obvious
Have you noticed a big difference from colas stored after being flash frozen in liquid nitrogen, vs vacuum sealed and frozen? Which raises the question, do you get freezer burn on buds? All that other plant matter might make for good juicing!
I never treat anything as obvious where I can help it. After all, folks still open blast indoors and risk life and limb with BHO despite everyone having had ample time to figure out that this is stupid shit to do!
Slow freezing of material that was once living (like our nugs) is known to cause the formation of large ice crystals. Large ice crystals cause the cell walls within the plant matter to rupture, and leads to rapid loss of actives as well as mingling of active and inactive components. This is not good for any kind of extraction - this leads to more unwanted inactives getting into your extract.
Flash freezing avoids this problem, and this is why we use liquid nitrogen. Vacuum sealing and freezing may assist in achieving lower temps inside the vessel once the vessel has frozen, but this freezing process is still slow, bringing the problems with ruptured cell walls.
yeah, that's why I was leaning towards the nitrogen approach. Bet you keep that freezer COLD! How much does the compressor come on after these things are releasing all that cold-ass vapor?
The concern with putting nitrogen flushed bags in the freezer (or any sealed vessel full of nitrogen in an enclosed space) is that if something goes wrong or the bag gets bumped when you put something else in (or any number of possible scenarios where the bag breaks and the nitrogen leaves it) is that liquid nitrogen greatly stresses internal components of machinery. Purpose made freeze dryer units are designed so that liquid nitrogen cannot get in contact with internal components of the machine to avoid this stress. Moreover, if you have had the nitrogen leak into the freezer (which is not necessarily cold enough to keep all the nitrogen in the liquid phase, especially when you open the door - a freezer is nowhere near as cold as nitrogen in liquid form needs to be) you may have a freezer that releases a bunch of asphyxiant at you when you open it afterwards!
You can also flash freeze your material immediately before you process it in an appropriate vessel with adequate ventilation (or outdoors) without any need to use a conventional freezer. This is preferable and avoids stress on your freezer's components and other contents, as well as other potential dangers relating to asphyxiation. For long term storage of flowers, you should consider a peltier effect based wine fridge. These are regularly designed to maintain RH of 55-65% and temps that are very favorable to cannabis storage but does not lead to the problems that compressor based fridges cause with cannabis which is that moisture is drawn to outer areas of the fridge and can cause problems for spoilage due to uneven deposits of moisture in the material stored in these areas etc.
For anybody else reading this - this is not recommended for the uninitiated (ie: those who have not been trained in safe use of nitrogen should stay well away from this stuff)! I have only shared this information for the OP who asked. Take the utmost care!
Put on my big boy pants and I am doing testing today with it.
I have been collecting second-wash only in a bottle, and I really don't care for green dragon anymore after having almost 2 years of an extremely high RSO intake that I stopped early this year.
So...I have also wanted to find out how well this thing called a "warmer zone" on my glass stovetop would work, so I put the slick pad in a pyrex dish. I'll keep adding the remaining alcohol until done.
(I searched the internet to find out what temp "low" is on this kenmore warmer zone, I can't find it anywhere. Hoping it is low enough not to cause problems. Pyrex seems barely warm after 30 minutes, so I'm not too concerned yet. It has 3 settings, Lo/Med/Hi with 3 dots in between each or something. I am using the lowest setting.)
I need to not be so darn nervous while figuring this out, and I feel pretty good about playing around with this second-wash stuff. With post results later somewhere, probably share that dab stash thread.
And yes hb, I got the cheesecloth off the glass after fussing with it to take pic!
Good things hb, and good things to everyone!
damn, peltier devices... my late friend was an expert! timing.
Hey man, sorry I was slow on responding to this one!
Great to see you tuning your technique to give you medicine in a way that you prefer to tinctures (I avoid tinctures altogether, I do not want to consume a drop of alcohol personally lol). With the heat of the glass, if you can lift the glass out and touch the bottom where the heat was being directly applied without it feeling too hot to keep your hand on, then it is not too hot. However, please wear silicone/nitrile gloves when you first check, you don't wanna burn yourself on the off chance that it is too hot!
Man I love this thread!!!
Yup, that's what I did.
And you are TOO cool about things - I know when I was begging you to let me apprentice under your techniques you must have groaned. (I ask for help, then cry like a baby or argue like an MMC fighter when I don't like the answer.)
You're the (very patient) guide, I'm the very willing student.
So this last run yes - slightly under-purged.
I *was* WAY under-purged when I first asked for help, then WAY over-purged (death sugar) last time, so now I am getting *closer* to correct. The "Way of the Goldilocks"...
The stuff vapes in my Torch just fine, and it's awesome - not sedating like I thought it would be, very very energizing even though my fingers smell like Afghani for hours after I touch it! But I *know* in my gut it's not *quite* right - the consistency is too runny, by just a *touch*.
(Three pics below since you asked somewhere else for a better shot to determine what's what) So I time lapsed, first shot from right after removing from pad, second one where it *has* now settled into a glob overnight in the jar, and third one where I just used my smallest dab tool, stuck it in the glob and swirled once, and it came out as a single (soft) piece.
I bought a piece of European pyrex (brand was "arcuisine", apparently US pyrex version is now using a different cheaper formula), 5-qt rectangle 15x9" was as big as I could find, and I am going back - at least for a bit - to trying glass purging and scraping. I significantly upgraded my scraping tools for under $20 at the same time that I got the oil slick pad just in case, so I am going that route again.
Something about qwet and that mat just gets... tricky. Glass is much more straightforward for me to tell how wet/dry something is, at least that's my current perception.
I'll do a 1/2oz run over the holiday weekend in my new dish and see what I get, just waiting for a little more curing on some flower.
Peace herbivore - you rock bud!
After 6 hours:
When removed as single glob with dab tool (sorry bud, pk in my hands so they shake a bit sometimes, this was the *steadiest* shot I could manage):
Peace everyone, and sorry if the pics blew out your screens, just trying to get the detail on this one!
I'm out of town visiting family and my little cousin (8) came up and asked me if I knew how to dab.
Do I ever!
Sigh. Need QWET purge help again. At least that's what I think it is.
Was, once again, shooting for "shatter" and got "death sugar". At least it clumps just a bit if I squeeze between my fingers.
I assume another over-purge, but how the HECK did I do it with NO heat - dish covered in cheesecloth with a clip on fan 3-ft away blowing over the top for 18 hours.
(I swear @herbivore21 is going to disown me if I keep this up...)
Here's quick deets, pics below. (Deets NOT meant to follow, but to let the experts here on FC take a look at what I did incorrectly)
16g dried (5 days) and cured (2-week) flowers, cut to pinky tip size
500ML Everclear 189 (350 for 1st wash, remainder for 2nd)
Two 5-minute washes (usually only do 3-minute, but I was trying to fix this same problem from two runs ago!)
Even lightly pressed down on flowers (they go in cheesecloth teabag for 2nd wash) during second wash for a good 15-20 seconds!
18-hours with clip on (6") fan 3-ft away (checked at 12 and it looked like a thin slab of paraffin wax, so I figured it had a while...!)
Okay, pics below.
Oh duh, and return! Where's my return...? Medic!
I got back 1.56g return in "death sugar" from 16g dried flowers, I would estimate THC % at 18-20 in original flowers (although the creators say low 20's)
"Where's my shatter weight?!" OldOyler then yelled to the air...no one to blame but hisself...
I have more pics but here's the timeline version:
SORRY FOR ALL THE LARGE PICS, and finally pressed and pressed, and then some between fingers to get it all in the jar:
I would just take your powder and put it on your oil slick, put a low low heat until it melts, fold over the oil slick and press it, pop in freezer and u should have shatter. My qwet usually ends up a powder like that if it is going to become a shatter, otherwise it is more sappy and will not ever shatter.
Edit: didn't mean to double quote
You *absolutely* have my attention here.
THOSE are my two recent extremes.
So, you said "is going to become a shatter", should I have left it longer rather than shorter? I switched to air-purging only since I was got even more powder the last times I used heat, 120F and 175F respectively.
Guess I am asking how you have managed to fix that powdering in particular in your qwet runs on an ongoing basis (I assume follow the instructions you gave? Does that reliably turn powder into shatter consistency for you?), and also what you do with the sappy stuff? I have just been vaping the sappy stuff anyway and dealing with the gooey-ness. But would LOVE to fix that without having to re-dissolve.
Hey, and I appreciate any ideas in advance as well as everything you already provided cptc. Not trying to put you to work on *my* probs.
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