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Big discussion on Reddit re danger of ceramic heating elements in vapes.

Discussion in 'ABV' started by Qbit, Feb 17, 2013.

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  1. OO

    OO Technical Skeptical

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    Absolutely not.
    The air is full of microscopic dust called condensation nuclei. If it was all filtered out, you would see no smoke following "water filtration".
    Roger D and Enchantre like this.
  2. Dr. Plutonious

    Dr. Plutonious Well-Known Member

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    So 7th Floor got back to me with this response:

    Anyways, this basically has put to rest any minor concerns I may have had. 7th Floor seems like way too good of a company to rely on cheap parts and such anyways.
  3. vape4life

    vape4life Banned for life

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    8 years! WOW!!!! :bowdown:
    kingofnull and cellardoor like this.
  4. that herb guy

    that herb guy Well-Known Member

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    If 100% of the vapor was being exposed to water, then yes. But the vapor comes up in bubbles leaving the inside 'chamber' of the bubble (can't think of a better word) that has not been filtered. If you're running it through a frit perc or 2-3 sets of trees, it is probably removing most of anything potentially harmful, but one natural perc, etc isn't going to entirely scrub the vapor. Also probably depends on the grit size of whatever 'dust' is supposed to be getting through, larger grit being more easily trapped than finer dust.

    Honestly I don't think there's a HUGE amount of risk with this. If you're combusting, you're already receiving tar/toxins as a byproduct. And IF the ceramic were to crack I don't think it would throw a constant 'stream' of dust loose. If anything it might take 2-3 rips for anything that came loose to be drawn out but I wouldn't expect the dust to continue forever from 1 crack. And as pointed out, it's pretty common (if not necessarily smart) for those working with ceramics to work without masks, and that's heavy/constant exposure.

    As with anything else just be smart about it. If you believe your ceramic element to be cracked or damaged, maybe it is time for a replacement, just in case. Even a little inhaled COULD be problematic for those with poor health or compromised immune systems.
  5. Norlin

    Norlin Classic Rocker

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  6. vorrange

    vorrange Well-Known Member

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    You are justifying your opinion based on visual similarity?!

    My DBV element is different than the one in the pictures, and i don't know how you can tell apart between two ceramic elements of different brands. :shrug:

    Honestly guys, 7th floor has already answered these concerns before, Vitolo has smashed a ceramic element from 7th floor to test its durability, and ceramic doesn't just start crumbling.

    I think you guys are confusing the ceramic in these elements from the ceramic in pots and dishes.. :D
  7. Norlin

    Norlin Classic Rocker

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    I'm not justifying anything, and it's not my opinion, no. I was simply noting the similarity, though I can totally see how you would think otherwise from my previous post. Especially the "I think I know where they buy their heaters" part, I think I was more trying to suggest that possibility rather than flat out make claims I can't back up.
  8. misanthrope

    misanthrope Well-Known Member

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    Not all of us have scientific minds. I did initially get spooked by the OP. Then I read further and stopped worrying... Then I noticed two ever so tiny scratches on my SSV's ceramic heating element and got a bit worried again (these scratches glow a bit brighter when heater is on and look grey when it's off).

    I take Vitolo's experiment as a strong indication that this is nothing to worry about. It would bring me (and I'm sure many others) great peace of mind if anyone could confirm this and explain it in layman's terms.:huh:

    Or should I be saving up for a replacement SSV:huh:
  9. vorrange

    vorrange Well-Known Member

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    The thing is, unless there is something wrong with the element as is not up to par in quality, ceramic dust doesn't happen like this.

    I suggest you talk to 7th floor about the scratch but i highly doubt there is anything wrong.. plus, a new ceramic element is quite cheap i think, no need to get a new SSV.
    misanthrope likes this.
  10. misanthrope

    misanthrope Well-Known Member

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    I spoke to a friend of mine yesterday who is quite scientific. His surfer also has a couple of little marks like I described "It is just a symptom of something heatingup and cooling repeatedly - nothing to worry about".

    I may drop 7th Floor an email, but with your post and his comment, I'm not that worried now. Thanks for getting back to me.
    vorrange likes this.
  11. MOTORHEAD

    MOTORHEAD Member

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    Hey FC!

    Long time lurker, first time poster.

    I was concerned about this when I found my way in here yesterday. Owning an EQ, I emailed Arizer to ask about this. I included a link to the Reddit post in the email.

    Here is the response I received this morning:

    The Arizer employee who wrote this included their name in the email, but I left it out of the quote.
    ogcook, Jeppy, rcflo and 1 other person like this.
  12. MOTORHEAD

    MOTORHEAD Member

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  13. Nosferatu

    Nosferatu Well-Known Member

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    Well I hope 7th Floor uses a quality one as well...
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  14. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

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    We all knew without asking that there are low quality ceramic heaters out there. We also know from that silly thread and other sources that the core issue—whether inhaling anything that they give off during heating—is at most a tiny risk, surpassed by just breathing in many environments. This response from Arizer adds nothing to the discussion except that their heater meets VOC standards.
    Fully Melted likes this.
  15. OO

    OO Technical Skeptical

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    I would really like that employee to come here and share what knowledge they have, as it seems they know something about commonly used heat exchanging materials that we do not, and I would like to be aware of the risks.
  16. Hippie Dickie

    Hippie Dickie The Herbal Cube Manufacturer

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    that employee stated pretty clearly that Arizer products don't have a risk.

    are you asking about risk from other products? that sounds like an exercise left for the reader.
    vorrange likes this.
  17. hoptimum

    hoptimum Well-Known Member

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    Since I use an Extreme Q and a Solo, I appreciated hearing from Arizer. I'd also like to hear from 7th Floor about the quality of their ceramic heating elements.
  18. Dr. Plutonious

    Dr. Plutonious Well-Known Member

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    I posted an email they sent me in regards to the Reddit thread earlier in this discussion. 7th floor is as safe as anyone. Wouldn't expect anything less from them either.
  19. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

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    The point is not whether Arizer or 7th Floor uses the highest quality ceramic heater, it's whether these low end ceramic heaters introduce any measurable increased risk if used in a vapourizer. Based on what I've read I don't think they do.
    vorrange and rcflo like this.
  20. OO

    OO Technical Skeptical

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    The employee stated that there are risks with steel and glass. These would be risks I've yet to hear of, nor read anywhere on these boards. Their evidence to support those utterances would be valuable to many who frequent these boards, and I would really appreciate them sharing what they know.

    Knowledge is power and I'm always interested in gathering more of it.

    Visually identifiable changes in the surface texture of the ceramic elements have yet to be addressed, so don't go locking threads.

    There has yet to be a suitable explanation for why the texture of the ceramic surface is changing.
    Are the particles migrating over the surface? Are more particles bonding to the surface? Or are there particles spallating from the surface as many have implied?

    Either way it is an alumina ceramic, which means that you would be inhaling aluminum oxide dust, which I don't believe to be significantly harmful based upon the literature I have come across, but that does not mean that what I know is all there is to know.

    mod note: Please avoid back-to-back posts, use Edit instead. Two posts merged.
  21. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

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    I don't know where you got the idea that thread would be locked.

    Everything else you said is correct as far as I know. I feel that I know enough not to care about that level of detail, since I am convinced it has no effect whatsoever on the risks in my life. Others obsess over such things, that's their choice.
  22. Hippie Dickie

    Hippie Dickie The Herbal Cube Manufacturer

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    i personally think spallation from plastic-ish tubing is a bigger problem then ceramic particle mobility. and that doesn't appear to have caused harm for anybody, either.

    there was a passing reference to problems with borosilicate glass a number of months ago in another thread. since that is the basis of my vape design, i choose to ignore the issue. if borosilicate doesn't contaminate lab results, i am willing to believe it is inert enough.
  23. OO

    OO Technical Skeptical

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    You see, it's statements like this one that really worry consumers. I'm sure it's the result of a statement that was only read from your perspective, but please try to consider how others will interpret what you say before saying it, it's in your best interests if you ever intend to bring your product to market.

    As far as borosilicate not contaminating lab results, that depends largely upon the experiment, there are many experiments which borosilicate is not suitable for. Rash generalizations are risky things, especially when they apply to health and business, it would be wise to know the parameters of which you speak.

    Which is one reason I really want to know the employee's concerns, I can't with good conscience come to these boards and give advice to others if I feel like there could be health risks that are known that I am not aware of. I want to help others make educated decisions, but I don't want to steer them into a situation where they will be causing themselves and others harm.

    I have seen numerous threads on this board be locked before an adequate conclusion was reached in my opinion. I imagined an apathetic tone in your previous posts, and didn't want you to hastily end a discussion which has the potential to inform/educate.

    Those who do obsess about those sorts of things are a large fraction of the readers of these boards. I do not consider myself to be one of them, but I want to have reasonable certainty that I am not bringing harm to others through my advice.

    I hold myself to a somewhat high standard though.
  24. pakalolo

    pakalolo RoboMod v3.17 (ticking) Staff Member

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    This thread probably should be closed. Frankly, I don't think it will do anything but continue to upset people who either have not done their own homework and are thus misled by exaggerated fears of possible unknowns, or who reject the evidence they do find because they just know there must be something wrong. I am hardly apathetic about issues like this, and I take pride in my research abilities. I determined to my satisfaction that it's just hysteria. I share your concern about not bringing harm to others though my advice, and I have no qualms at all about telling people that this ceramic heater dust scare is bullshit. I owe it to them not to let them get worked up over ignorance and paranoia.
    Fully Melted and vorrange like this.
  25. OO

    OO Technical Skeptical

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    As admirable as it is that you are willing to put an end to what you feel is a discussion which only breeds paranoia and speculation, think of how the others will see it.

    I think that this discussion should be left open to allow those who think they have evidence to allow them to present it and make their case. In the event that they should fail to convince others or have valuable counterarguments presented against their case, what is the cost? At the very least we will just be putting fears to rest, and learning a little from that, or we could learn of a harm that hasn't been considered.

    I like to allow everyone to speak their minds. Others will use their own to determine the value of what is spoken.
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