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Advanced E-cig users and oil/wax, how-to "one-hitter-quitter"

Discussion in 'Concentrates' started by TrueNorthStar, Jul 29, 2013.

  1. TrueNorthStar

    TrueNorthStar Active Member

    Messages:
    25
    Hello fellow FC vapers out there! This is my first "how-to" post, hope it starts a good conversation :)
    Actually its my first post ever! :p
    Now lets get started.

    I'm starting this thread to get a discussion going on the topic of using Advanced vape/e-cig mods(APV) to consume oil/wax and what equipment we use. I haven't seen any topics like this as most topics are brand specific (Cera, g-pen, ect) and I would like to topic to stay non-brand specific, but more on the different "form factors"

    So what is an Advanced E-cig?

    There are several form factors out there when it comes to personal vape pens, so let me break it down it to "ranges"

    1) low range Key identifying factors: Small, cigarette sized e-cigs. These are the same exact size as normal everyday cigarettes. the tip typicly glows while you take a drag like a real cig. These are the most common among people trying to quit smoking (most fail, some will succeed)

    2) Micro G/cloud. Key identifying factors:oval shaped body, small, but more power than the above cigs. They even have wax atomizers!!! Sigh, if you are a true oil head, prepared to be disappointed. While yes they can "vape" oil/wax you can plan on taking several hits to feel good. For me it seemed like too much work, so the good ol' standby nail got used, this thing collected dust.

    3)ego's, atmos ect. Key identifying factors: Round shaped, sharpie sized vape pen. These have the highest market amongst most e-cig vapers' These typicly use the standard 510 connection (common amongst most e-cigs) *this is the level I, where I was actually able to kick my cigarette smoking habbit* Now even in this group there are 2 distinct differences: set voltage and adjustable voltage. Adjustable, being the better as you can up the power/vapor production. Max power ~9-10watts

    4) Advanced VV/VW Mods (Provari, evic ect) Key identifying factors: much larger than group 3 vaporizers, approximately 1" in diameter Standard 510 connections, digital displays, constant voltage or constant wattage control, user selectable. Max power 15-20 watts

    5)Advanced Personal Vaporizer (APV)/Mechanical Mods) Key identifying factors: No electronics (displays ect) Now there are called Advanced, not due to their technological capabilities, but due to the fact they are for "Advanced Users" Meaning you need to know how to properly use OHM's LAW for building your own coils (I'll try and simplify this later), be aware of possible/potential dangers, and making sure your equipment its up for the task. Maximum "safe" power= 42watts Maximum Peak power = 75watts you can see the benefit here :)


    For this thread I want to focus on group #5 as it, and trust me when I say this, can out perform your TI nial/globe setup!!!! Yeah, no 45sec hits to get a tiny amount of smoke. I'm talking big, give you asthma for 15 min, man up here it comes!!

    Now let me start off with what makes the mechanical mods (APV) the "CHOICE" e-cig platform. Simple..... Power. With no electronic limitations, the mechanical mod is only limited by your batteries current ratings. For this reason, I use only the most powerful batteries I can. For most off the shelf mechanical mods/APV's that will be the good ol' lipo 18650 3.7v. Now even amongst the 18650's out there you are going to want a "High Drain" rated one. Look for AW IMR 18650s as they seem to have the best in class power output with a 10amp continuous/18amp peak output.

    Armed with the specs of the battery, we can design a coil to go with it to extract the best (not maximum) vapor from.

    Which brings me to the next part that we will need.... An Rebuildable Dripping Atomizer (called an RDA or RBA). Now there are several models on the market and a quick search on google or ebay will land you several options. What they are is basicly a standard 510 atomizer connection, with a chamber and a few posts terminals to hook up your coil/coils and finally a cap to cover it all up :)

    Here are a few pics of my current setup that I call the "Skeptic Killer" and specs:
    Mechanical mod :Titan
    Atomizer : Ebay Nimbus clone
    Coil/wick setup : 1/8 316 stainless steel cable (5/8" long),1 1/4 wrap of (oxidized 500 ss mesh) and for the coil 3 wraps of 22ga. Kanthal A-1 resistance wire @ 0.15 ohm.

    Here is the Mechanical mod + atomizer with the cap off:
    [​IMG]
    IMG_20130728_084853_199 by TrueNorthStar, on Flickr

    Loading 1g of near shatter oil on top of the coil:
    [​IMG]
    IMG_20130728_085111_503 by TrueNorthStar, on Flickr

    Here I "Primed" the wick/coil buy pulsing the power for a really short time, ~0.5sec (NOTE: with "this" setup, be careful with the priming process, coil has the ablility to flash boil the oil very very quickly, you don't want this to happen with the cap off :p) Notice the bubbles in it just from the short burst of power!!!
    [​IMG]
    IMG_20130728_085228_331 by TrueNorthStar, on Flickr

    Here it is all assembled and ready to go!!!

    [​IMG]
    IMG_20130728_085303_911 by TrueNorthStar, on Flickr

    Notice I modified the cap to the atomizer by replacing the single 1mm air intake hole with 3 x 3/32" holes. This gives you a draw/pull like sucking air through a soda straw :) get that out of your g-pen!!!

    A few considerations to keep in mind:

    RDA/RBA atomizers are meant for dripping a few drops of "e-liquid" and blasting out large amounts of vapor, that said there is no "storage tank". When your oil melts down, it will become as liquid as baby oil. Since that is the case, when I assemble the RDA/RBA cap and body, I place the "air intakes" opposite of the coil, this way I can tilt it back and make the liquid hot oil pool around the coil and not leak out of the intake holes (FYI this is opposite of how they are typicly setup for e-liquid) You WILL BURN YOURSELF if the hot oil leaks out onto your hand, so be mindful of the vaporizers orientation while it is hot!!! Once cool, they are pocket friendly, so leave it upright after use!!!!

    It is normal for the unit to get hot near the atomizer, not the body/activation button. If the battery starts to feel warm, stop using it, replace it with a fully charged one. If that battery gets hot, then you have a short or a bad connection. Make sure all of your electrical contacts are kept clean!!!

    Once you notice the vaporizer not hitting as hard, re-charge your battery. As a matter of fact, keep your batteries as fully charged as possible, as that is when they are the safest to use :)



    Now here are a few things I have found, avenues for research:

    Coil Wire Size: The smaller the wire, gauge wise, the faster the response but expect shorter life. The heavier the gauge, slower response (at the same current level), higher power output @ lower temperatures and will last longer. (typical off the shelf atomizers/carts use between 34-38 ga wire... super responsive, but short lived life and low power output)

    Also, the heavier the gauge the more current it can handle.

    If you compare 32ga. vs. 22ga. @ the same current, the 32ga will be hotter but transfer less power and the 22ga will be colder, but transfer more power.

    The SS cable wick made a huge difference when it came to:
    A) controllability, it acts as a thermal ballast, at high power levels it is really easy to ignite your oil if not careful. So with the response slowed down you can "tell" when a blowout is about to happen and let off the power before it happens.

    B) Since the cable gives you better control, your coil never gets as hot, therefor extending the life time of the coil.

    C) When oil is hot the cable sucks it up fast, keeping more of the coils element in contact with oil = less burning (yes you can burn oil)

    My coils last about 2 months of constant abuse (0.5-1.5grams a day)


    I'm pretty sure I can't be the first to try this, so I'm hoping there are a few people that have some experiences they can share!!!

    Oh yeah, just ordered the new Phonix V6 RBA off ebay, it looks like it may be more user friendly in that you can remove the cap while keeping it in a deep well so you can load and prime the coil without worry of spilling out. I'll let you know how that goes when I get it in.
  2. Trichoma

    Trichoma Member

    Messages:
    10
    I use e-cig with simple wax dissolved in pure PG. This is all way over my head and I just don't understand why you have to go to this extreme? I mix my concentrates to PG at 1 part PG to 2 parts concentrates and let me tell you, its very strong. If I am lazy I use my Thermo W. I don't understand why your going to this extreme. As long as you have a good atomizer or cartomizer that can burn thick juice then that's all you need. look up this thread started by Haywood. http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/thinning-down-pure-gold.9786/.
    Saccs likes this.
  3. TrueNorthStar

    TrueNorthStar Active Member

    Messages:
    25
    Let me put it like this, I have a high tolerance, really high. I know several other people like me.

    I can no longer get the same satisfaction from flowers, no matter the consumption method.

    So dabbing on a nail is what I do, well did. I had a motorcycle racing accident and lost the use of dominant arm for some time. Ever try to do a nail with one hand? Now make that your un-coordinated hand :p sucks!!!

    Like I said, I've tried most of the pens out there and this is the only thing I have found that can out pace my nail while being as simple to use as an e-cig. It's a one handed affair!!!!

    I also have no love for doing "sessions", I usually lack the time for them. I can take one rip from this device and be where I like to be quick. I love the fact that I can swap my genesis (e-liquid) setup with this one and no one is the wiser and even my friends that have used it, and know what it is, still ask what I'm vaping cause they cannot tell.

    When I do sit down for a session with friends, they, like me, are heavy smokers (birds of a feather) and as such, the "who's got the biggest" contests arise.... standard TI nails lack the mass to contain the necessary heat energy to vaporize a sufficient volume of oil to test our limits :p Yes I know it is a bit childish, but hey, it's how "I" have fun.

    The atomizer build that I show here is "EXTREME", at least, by my standards..... today. Time always has the power to change standards :p

    For a more civil vape, a RDA with a 0.5-0.6 22ga 5-ish wrap will run right there with dabbing with less chance with burning.
  4. vape4health

    vape4health Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    752
    I like the cable idea. Are you sure on the ohms 0.15 is way freaking low, that thing must be a monster.
    And welcome to FC, looks like you will be posting some interesting stuff :)
    BLAZING OG and filteredhead like this.
  5. TrueNorthStar

    TrueNorthStar Active Member

    Messages:
    25
    Well I would say its a good guess. @ 6 wraps I got .3ohms on my tesla (vv/vw mod) @ 3 it reads 0.1ohm so I would guess more than 0.1 but less than 0.2 :) Monster is an under statement LOL!!!

    I'm building my own vv/vw/vc mod DIY arduino controlled to perform more accurate/controlled test conditions. Mechanical mods are "blind" in a way. Kinda like setting up a mortar :p you prepare as best you can, aim right and fire!!! Where my DIY mod will differ from everything out there in that it will be able to supply up to 10v and 30amps continuous :) should be fun for blowing atomizers up :p (racer to the core LOL) and seeing whats possible.

    NOTE: Please stay above 0.5 ohms till you gain experience, there is a learning curve, Ill try to answer any questions that I can but I've been blind in my own efforts so far.... Hell I could be playing with last years ideas for all I know HAHAHAHA
    Darb and filteredhead like this.
  6. TrueNorthStar

    TrueNorthStar Active Member

    Messages:
    25
    Good news! The New RDA showed up!!

    I'm really liking the design! It has an adjustable air intake that you can actually close for travel!!

    I coiled 12 wraps of 22ga kanthal on the smallest tech driver I had, removed one of the ground posts, and installed it in a "U" type fashion making it about 75% around the entire inner diameter of the atomizer. Threaded some 2mm ceramic wick braid. About 3/8" of wick was left at each end of the coil then routed down under to coil to the bottom of the well. Final resistance was measured at 0.5ohm according to my tesla.

    Now I would have really liked to use ss cable on this build, the body diameter is about 1/16" smaller than my nimbus and the inner diameter is even smaller. SS cable can be a bitch to bend and does not conform well lol The ceramic wick fit the small diameter coil perfectly and was easy enough to thread in.

    I melted some of my oil down into the well with the base ring installed. This is probably my favorite feature. The base ring effectively drops your coil down in a deep well, while leaving it exposed from above.... really aids in loading and safety (less chance of dripping hot oil out). The top cap acts as both your drip tip adaptor and your air intake regulator. As you twist it, in relation to the base ring, the air flow can be either increased or reduced or even closed.

    As I expected, the 22ga Kanthal @ 0.5ohms is a slow responder and doesn't reach as high a temperature when left powered, free standing in air.

    Which leads me to this: Once you have verified your coil is not shorted, and is at or close to it expected resistance, test it in free air with no oil. The goal here for me is to see how long it takes from the time I hit the power to the time I can visually see the coil glow and then how hot does it ultimately get.

    For this coil it took it about 5 sec. to get from room temp to glowing hot. Def. not an instant hitter. Once up to temp, it was easy to moderate the temperature by "pulsing" the power. cool!

    First impressions:
    1) Takes a few seconds to get the vape flowing, but it gets rolling really well after 6 sec of power (so hit the power about 3-4 sec before you begin to inhale)

    2)Super smooth!!! not harsh at all, while I did cough a couple of times, they were lil baby coughs, and then they were done.

    3)Flavor was excellent!!! Best tasting setup I've tried thus far!!! I think this is due to the small chamber size vs. my nimbus setup but it could also be the fact that it runs cooler but has way more surface area exposed. The actual kanthal is 4 times longer than whats in my nimbus.

    4)Vapor production 0-6sec = joint status 6 sec and beyond = nail status.



    Now things I'll look for tomorrow, how well does the flavor last, how much is left in it when the vape quality drops (some setups need to keep a minimal level of oil to wick properly)

    Will I still love it in the morning? LOL!! who knows, I know sometimes the tinkerer in me gets overly excited with each build, which can jade or influence my opinion during the first test hahaha Kinda like watching your kid ride a bike for the first time, it was a totally amazing feat when it happened, and you loved it, but it isn't as impressive as a feat when compared to what a MotoGP racer does for a living :p

    I do have some dislikes, none of them deal breakers for me.

    1) I could smell the cutting fluid on the atomizer when it arrived, a quick clean and boil and all is good to go.

    2) ground pins, removing one of the ground pins to install this large coil, reveals that the ground pins are pressed into the base of the atomizer. If it is thick enough, I may try to thread the hole so I can replace the post with a screw..... Then I can wrap multi vertical coils w/ss cable wicks :)

    The Atomizer was advertised as a Pheonix V6 on ebay and cost ~16 shipped to my door... the price of a few carts :p

    Heh just took another test. Held power for 5 sec prior to inhale. @ 10 sec of inhale I felt the need to stop, no competition here lol. So @ 10 sec of inhale I was @ about 50% lung capacity, inhaled air to fill up the rest of my lungs, 2 coughs and done. still tasted just as good and got me pretty well topped off :) One and done...... Gotta love it!!

    Pics to follow in the morning, time for sleep :)
  7. vape4health

    vape4health Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    752
    I just got started in ecigs so ... Could you give me a length measurement *guess* on your kanthal.
    Your blowing my mind with that low ohm on a mechanical, dont that crowd get scared sub 1ohm for fear of a battery popping or something. Please dont take my comments as a challenge or anything, I only played around a little bit. Im impressed a tesla can read that low, does it fire it? I have a provari that I dont use, I'll turn that bitch to an oil rig.
    abstract XstracT likes this.
  8. TrueNorthStar

    TrueNorthStar Active Member

    Messages:
    25
    OK time for pics :)

    Here is a couple of pics of the Atomizers' base attached to my Titan. You can see how I wrapped the coil then wrapped the coil around the center post (~2mm clearance between the center post and the coil. You can also see how I bent the wick under the coil. *notes on this later. Compared to my nimbus, it is 3mm smaller around (16mm for the Phoenix / 19mm for the Nimbus) and 2mm shorter.

    [​IMG]
    v6 1
    by TrueNorthStar, on Flickr

    [​IMG]
    v6 2
    by TrueNorthStar, on Flickr


    Here the base ring has been installed. Note the air intake hole located between the 2 visible O-rings, I actually drilled this out to 1/8". The cap/drip tip slide down over the 2 O-rings and there is a matching air hole on the cap that aligns with the base rings air hole.

    You can see how having this "base ring" installed, you can easily put your extract on the coil and gently melt it down with out fear of spilling.

    [​IMG]
    Base ring installed
    by TrueNorthStar, on Flickr

    The next 2 pics are fully assembled, where they differ is the second photo was taken with the cap rotated slightly to reduce the size of the intake. I really like it because you can tune it to your preference very quickly.

    [​IMG]
    v6 4
    by TrueNorthStar, on Flickr

    [​IMG]
    v6 5
    by TrueNorthStar, on Flickr


    Now that I have had a few loads through it, I would say that while the ceramic wick doesn't suck up the hot oil as well as the ss cable, it works well enough for this setup. I would have to guess that the hold up volume is close to 0.1-0.2 grams. Sounds like a lot but realistically, its a one time sacrifice and you can scrape most of it up if you really want to easy enough.

    The upshot to the ceramic wick is there are no shorts (which happens to the ss mesh if you are not careful) which makes it very easy for a beginner or a lazy vet :p
    Darb, MileHighLife, eiluaP and 3 others like this.
  9. TrueNorthStar

    TrueNorthStar Active Member

    Messages:
    25
    for the Beast 3 wrap its right around an inch of wire post to post, the new guy has about 4 1/4 to 4 1/2".

    Keep in mind that these were both wrapped with 22ga. smaller gauge wires have higher resistance per inch, so you would need even shorter wires for the coil or end up at a higher final resistance.

    When it comes to coil design, I use this equation:

    Resistance = Voltage/Current.

    Since the voltage is a set value,typically between 3.2-4.2vdc (for a single lipo cell) we can use the highest expected value, 4.2 in this case and divide it by the maximum current, lets use 10 amps in this case (the continuous rating for my 18650 battery)

    so 4.2v / 10 amps = 0.42ohms therefor anything with a higher resistance than 0.42ohms should be good to go for your coil (under optimal conditions)

    For for my battery it is also rated for a peak discharge of 18 amps, lets do the math for that:

    4.2v / 18amps = 0.23 ohms

    So we can argue that a coil resistance of 2.33 ohms "SHOULD" be my maximum design parameter while maintaining some degree of safety.

    So how do I justify going even lower ? :p *WARNING MY LOGIC MAY BE FLAWED*

    Ok, batteries drain ratings...... They are rated by Voltage at max. continuous current rating.

    So with my battery is fully charged it has a voltage of 4.2 (give or take), but when put under a 10 amp load, the voltage will drop to 3.7 volts! lets do the math for that!

    3.7v / 18amps = 0.205 (now the actual voltage will actually run even lower at this high of a current draw)

    So for my 0.15ohm coil, I am willing to bet that the actual voltage, and the total combined resistance of the entire circuit will make up for that 0.055 ohm difference. That and if it doesn't make up the total difference, I'm willing to pit "MY" experience for identifying a problem in real time will make up the rest.

    The batteries don't get hot that fast if you are close to there ratings, if the battery is going to pop/vent, you can feel the heat long before it gets dangerous IMO.

    The reason I say this, I came across a mod that had its 510 connector short out in the mod... so it was like a 0.0001 ohm coil lol just moments after installing a fully charged battery, the entire mod became hot, I was able to quickly remove the battery before it became a real problem.

    That said, you should always give your setup a few pulses just to make sure it gets hot where it is supposed to get hot only :)


    Now as far as my Tesla goes, it will read down to 0.1 ohm but it wont "fire" anything with less than 1.2-1.3 ohms the benefit to the tesla is with the off the shelf carts/attys, it can drive them up to max voltage of 6v or up to a max wattage of 15watts (which ever comes first).

    P.S. Your battery should NEVER feel hot or warm, if it does there is a problem.
  10. TrueNorthStar

    TrueNorthStar Active Member

    Messages:
    25
    OK so after getting a full 24hr cycle on the new set, I have a couple of observations:

    1) the flavor seems to drop off quicker than with a ss wick. I'm thinking the ceramic wick and its lack of mass to act as an thermal ballast, allows the none vaped oil that remains behind to reach higher temperatures and/or the possibility that the slow response of the coil itself is reaching vape temp @ a slower rate allowing more thermal energy to be transferred into the stored oil burning of the flavor.

    Which brings me to these ideas:

    1) If I could, momentarily "boost" the voltage supplied to the coil for a short period of time when you first fire it, I'm sure I can give it the response I want while being able to fall back on a much lower voltage for the duration of the pull. Like give it a kick in the pants for the first 0.2 sec or so at 200% to instantly bring it up to temp, then just hold it there. I'm thinking ideally it will start like a 0.1 ohm coil, but burn like the 0.5 ohm coil. I'll test this idea out once the rest of the parts for my DIY show up.

    2) The flip side of idea 1, heat travels through oil slowly, so while we will be able to "instantly" heat the coil, we wont be able to instantly heat wick or the reservoir. That said, what if we supplied a much lower voltage to the coil to get everything up to a liquid state slowly so we don't upset the balance of compounds in it..... the stuff that tastes good..... vapes off first (in my perfect world it would be the other way :) ) so maybe 120f or so This would make sure the oil can even flow up the wick as fast as possible and take less energy to vape it off when it hits the coil. Lets call it "warm up" :p I notice it does feel like its working better on the second round as everything is up to temp.


    Now I want to say something about coil gauge. If I were planning on staying purely on this mechanical mod, I would ditch this 0.5 ohm coil, its too cold. 22ga, IMO, works great @ .2-.3ohms, more than that and its just too slow and un-responsive. For a 0.5ohm coil I would recommend a 26-28ga wire. It will give you way better response and still be putting out the same power.

    The main reason I use 22ga (which most would consider silly) it this..... Its like a coat hangar. Once I find a coil/setup I like with it, I probably never have to worry about it again. The oil I have access to is really hard like rock candy @ room temp, it gets pliable when pinched for a while. So I like to chip off a piece, roll it like a booger, and stuff it in my atomizer. With smaller ga coils I would end up destroying them by accident, for instance, I went to remove my atomizer to put my e-liquid one on, and the outer cap of the RDA spun on the base.... no big deal right? wrong, oil had cooled to both the coil and the cap. While the cap twisted the coil was ripped off the post and mangled.
  11. TrueNorthStar

    TrueNorthStar Active Member

    Messages:
    25
    eff it, I'm going to go try it @ 7.4v :p




    um, I was going to type something, but totally forgot... :mmmm:
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2013
    BLAZING OG and MileHighLife like this.
  12. TrueNorthStar

    TrueNorthStar Active Member

    Messages:
    25
    Ok, now that I have recovered from that endeavor :p HAHAHAHA

    **Disclaimer** What I am doing @7.4 is dangerous and should not be attempted by anyone but the most experienced "APV" users out there.

    WOW is all I have to say, its amazing how the same 0.5ohm coil that took 5-6 sec to get rolling was able to OUT FOG my 0.15 ohm "Skeptic Killer" in 0.2-0.4 sec. holy $#!T. WAYYYYY TOOOO MUCH!!!..... for meh at least lol Needs a second air hole and a bigger chamber, the inside of the entire chamber is coated with a thick film of oil now LOL

    That said it confirms that it is possible to rapidly heat the coil :p

    Here is a fun fact: The resistance of Kanthal wire changes with its surface temperature, it will be interesting to see if the Arduino is able to measure the resistance fast enough, in real time, to control the temperature of the wire :) . If the current sensor is fast enough, the resistance calculation gets more accurate the higher the current draw is so it may be possible :)
  13. kingofnull

    kingofnull ace

    Messages:
    2,366
    Location:
    Canada
    TrueNorthStar, have you tried solid ceramic?

    Interesting that you prefer the SS cable. Never tried it; have to order some.

    5-6 seconds isn't fast enough for you :lol:?
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2013
  14. TrueNorthStar

    TrueNorthStar Active Member

    Messages:
    25
    No I haven't, got any links or info does it wick well?


    An 5-6 sec isn't :) For me, it's not if it is good enough, but what is possible.


    As far a the SS cable goes, the e-cig fellows have been using it for a while now with their genesis style setups. So far I have found it to be the fastest wicking material. On my genesis, silica/ceamic cant supply enough e-liquid for sub 0.9 ohm coils, with the ss cable + 1 wrap of 500 ss mesh between the cable and coil, wicking is no longer an issue. If you are familiar with genesis style setups, I don't have to "tilt" it till I get into the sub 0.3 ohm range w/standard round kanthal, and 0.5 ohms with flat (0.9 x 0.1mm) ribbon.

    With the oil I find it has the added benefit of transferring heat into your oil, getting it in its fluid state quickly and once its all runny and flowing well, man, you can get some seriously dense, flavorful vape that feels like it is condensing on the inside of your mouth :) that's where my quest lies :)
    filteredhead likes this.
  15. kingofnull

    kingofnull ace

    Messages:
    2,366
    Location:
    Canada
    yeah that vape on your teeth feeling :D :D :D

    I don't have any link but if you check out the Bulli thread, Pipes had a lot of success using aquarium bubble/sponge stones. You can shape them with sand paper and a hack saw.
    BLAZING OG, Pipes and TrueNorthStar like this.
  16. TrueNorthStar

    TrueNorthStar Active Member

    Messages:
    25
    Thanks for the heads up!! Man I cant believe I never saw that thread.....I read the whole thing, start to end!! excellent work!!!
    Fogoff and Pipes like this.
  17. Haywood

    Haywood Onward Thru the Fog

    Messages:
    549
    TNS: I think you've really gone off the deep end, but I'm fascinated none the less. I haven't figured out why you want such a concentrated hit; a half gram of really good concentrate (Pure Gold, or any of a number of really good waxes, etc.) gets me whacked dozens and dozens of times (days and days), and I really do have very high tolerance (but obviously nothing like yours). :clap:

    I find a nice 1.5Ω bridgeless dripping atty is more than sufficient to produce hits that are beyond my ability to keep in my lungs without coughing my brains out. Just a simple 6 or so winds of Kanthal around a silica wick, all sitting in a ceramic cup, itself surrounded by nickel mesh. And I only feed it with about 3.9V (10W, a paltry two and a half Amps). A three second "burn" is all I need (along with a 10 second inhale). Coil is glowing full strength 500mS after I push the button.

    Anyway, to help with your quest, I thought I'd mention an 18650 battery you may not know about. It's like an AW IMR 1600mAh on steroids. Better specs for your use than any of the AW IMRs or any of the Panasonics.

    Sony US18650VTC3

    1600mAh
    12mΩ internal resistance
    1C recommended charge current (i.e., 1.5A)
    Discharge rated at 30A continuous

    With a 30 amp continuous discharge rating the Sony doesn't break a sweat at 5 or 10 amps. At 10 amps continuous discharge from full to empty (until the cell drops to 2.5V), the battery temp (from internal heating) goes up less than 10°C (maybe less than 5°C, the graph is too low rez for me to be sure). So these new batteries will heat up your coils faster than anything else on the market, and contribute less to heating themselves and your handle up. And they have sweet discharge curves. :p

    This battery is a perfect match for a high current, low resistance mech, or for your arduino project. They can be had for $12/pair ($6 each), free shipping, from Fasttech.

    If it were any one but you, I'd give severe warnings about what an unprotected Lithium cell that can deliver 30 amps without breaking a sweat, and probably 100 amps for a short while, will do if you accidentally short it. Not only will it vaporize a shorted coil, it'll vaporize the posts the coil is attached to. You can arc weld with this battery...

    Thanks for an interesting thread, and for sharing your experience; it's a real pleasure. Welcome to FC.

    :tup:

    Haywood
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2013
    Trichoma, Pipes, Fogoff and 1 other person like this.
  18. TrueNorthStar

    TrueNorthStar Active Member

    Messages:
    25
    WOW those batteries look to be the ticket for my titan! For my diy effort, I'll be using an RC battery rated for 55a continuous/ 77a peak, I don't plan on going over 30a :p It wont be a pretty unit for travel but it should make testing more flexible.

    As far as my tolerance, I've been strictly on the nail for a couple of years (it collects dust now :) ) so I have built up a mean one over time.

    I hope at some point to be able to provide some useful information and have some fun on the way!
    BLAZING OG and Fogoff like this.
  19. Pipes

    Pipes The guy with the Afterthoughts Accessory Maker

    Messages:
    1,252
    Location:
    Up there... some where...
    Great stuff here TrueNorthStar!!!
    The RBA you found looks like a good fit for the task. I like the ss cable, seems a very cool wicking method. Going to have to try it out.
    The only thing I find a little off is the coil resistance you have been using. Never went as thick as 22 AWG but understand the concept from my work with the Bulli. The thickest I tried was 26 AWG which IMO was too slow to respond at the 1 ohm mark. (pretty much in line with your findings) Although, I have gone below the 1 ohm mark in the past, I found that once the resistance is low, the battery condition really comes into play. Since one part of my criteria for the design was to be able to use most 18650 batteries I moved back to 28 AWG. After finding as I made the resistance less the heat got hotter until around the .8 ohm mark and then would start to feel like going the other way. In doing some measuring I found that the voltage was actually dropping more than what was gained by the lesser resistance and other areas would heat as well. Of course better batteries would give different results but had me think about wasting power.
    That ceramic XC wick is neat stuff for sure. Have been using in my AGA genesis and love it.
    I too am going to order those Sony batteries which Haywood has pointed out. Those specs look just too good to pass up.
    Keep us up to date on your endeavors.
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  20. TrueNorthStar

    TrueNorthStar Active Member

    Messages:
    25
    Thanks Pipes!

    Yeah the heavy gauge wire need a lot of current to get hot, but hot isn't exactly what we need :) @0.5 ohm it is on the cold side, I think 0.3 is ideal for 22ga kanthal

    The batteries make a huge difference with the sub ohm coils, like you said, at a point the lesser batteries, well all batteries have an output limit where as you attempt to draw more current the voltage drops to a point where no more gains can be found. While my orbtronics have been kicking ass it will be interesting to see how those sony batteries perform! I cant wait for them to arrive.

    I was just paying with my RSST genesis, doing a dual wick setup, I got a little idea....

    Have you ever seen a top feeding genesis? where the tank is above the coil? Im wondering if we were to use a ss cable wick and mesh that fit snugly in the hole between the tank and the coil chamber, im wondering if it would wick oil from the tank down to the coil while keeping the cable saturated with "FRESH" oil at all times with out flooding the coil chamber..... Must find top feed to play with :)

    The challenge will be heating the wick prior to vaping, like there will be some sort of warm up period @ 0.5-1.0 volt just to get things flowing. The idea of loading 3 grams of oil at a time with no flavor drop off is getting me excited!!
    Fogoff and Pipes like this.
  21. Pipes

    Pipes The guy with the Afterthoughts Accessory Maker

    Messages:
    1,252
    Location:
    Up there... some where...
    You sure know how to get me excited. Did a search and found a review and tutorial on the Cyclon II top feed genesis. It definitely shows promise. In the video he uses a plastic tank instead of the ss stock tank because of condensation. I think a glass tank could be used as well allowing some external heating to guide the concentrate if needed. It would also be awsome if the outside portion had glass just so you could see the vapor. Would just add to the coolness. It's not a short video but is very thorough.


    I think you are correct in that the key is the ability to control the flow and the SS cord may be the needed ingredient. Now figuring how to stop the flow might present another challenge. But that's what makes it fun.

    :clap:
    EDIT:
    Ouch, just tried to find this addie. Expensive, 60 GBP + 7 GBP shipping. At least we know they do exist. It's a special order type of thing too. Hopefully a cheaper version will present itself.
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2013
    filteredhead, Fogoff and Haywood like this.
  22. TrueNorthStar

    TrueNorthStar Active Member

    Messages:
    25
    I think a layer of mesh will work. From what I have seen. I am assuming the small orifice size of the mesh may help dam it up. Its has this strange effect of acting like an oil valve... temperature dependent of course :p

    Now, if the oil "storage" chamber is sealed, I would think the oil would have a hard time making it out with out some way for air to get it. That said, If the stored oil was up to fluid temperature, you could cover the air intake hole and put some vacuum on the chamber to prime it...... damn, a clear atomizer chamber would be so nice for judging the saturation of the wick.

    hmmmm glass tube in tube :) ?

    One large diameter one and one small, Place a notch the size of a ss cable (or 2 :rockon:) at the base of the smaller tube. Install the small tube inside the big tube in an offset orientation, as so it is touching the larger tube on one side (notch facing into the opening), place a mesh wrapped ss cable horizontally through the notch, wrap a coil and BAM!!! lol.

    McMaster has pyrex tubes of different sizes from 1/4" through 1" cheap enough to play with, having a base and cap made may prove challenging.

    It would be kinda cool to see both the level and the magic :)
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  23. Fogoff

    Fogoff Member

    Messages:
    69
    Hello, what a nice thread !
    On my side i'am using a genesis atomizer
    I ran it with a little bit of ejuice to avoid dry hit
    I use 2,5mm 7x7 Ss rope with a wrap of 325 mesh with 3 wrap of khantal o.25
    It gives me a 0.9 ohm resistance. That's what I use for my ejuice.
    I just dab on along the mesh and invert the airhole at the opposite
    It gives very nice hit of bho
    This is the way I experience since the day I forgot my nail during a trip.
    It turns out to be very good ;)
    BLAZING OG, Pipes and TrueNorthStar like this.
  24. TrueNorthStar

    TrueNorthStar Active Member

    Messages:
    25
    So you just put the raw oil on the mesh wick and vape it with the e-juice in your genesis? While I don't like the idea of loading each "dab" this does sound intriguing as far as playing with flavors :)

    A little off topic, but I just did a quad coil(26ga 0.6ohm ea)/dual wick final resistance of 0.1 hahahah I do stupid things sometimes just to try them and see what happens, with a 3/16" air hole the thing it tastes amazing and fogs like no other..... I think I may try to dab a lil on there and see what happens :p

    My poor batteries are going to hate me lol!!
    Fogoff likes this.
  25. Fogoff

    Fogoff Member

    Messages:
    69
    Yes I load small dabs just to cover the mesh/ cable surface
    But i'am sure I can improve the process thanks to your research
    What's the ideal resistance for you to dab?

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