Vaporization temperature dependent selection of effects

[pakalolo]

It appears to me then, that in an effort to avoid a lot of CBN, I've been leaving some THC "on the table", so to speak by vaping at lower temps (around 356F / 180C).

This will depend on how long you spend at the lower temperature. You can still release all the THC, it just takes longer. Think of water: if you heat it to 10° below boiling and leave it at that temperature, it will still all evaporate, it will just take longer. What would be helpful is to know how long it takes at the lower temperature.

Anyway, raising your temperature will definitely help.

 

[TomC1315]

This will depend on how long you spend at the lower temperature. What would be helpful is to know how long it takes at the lower temperature.

Anyway, raising your temperature will definitely help.

Well, a month and a half into vaping, my plan has been for moderately low temps and remain there ... are you suggesting, pakalolo, that I can (eventually) extract most or all the THC while remaining at moderately low temps - e.g. with a second balloon from the same material, or hitting the Arizer Air a few more times?

With my ExtremeQ, I'm just putting a small amount (not quite enough to even cover the screen on the cyclone bowl) in the bowl, fan speed 1, then retiring the nicely and evenly browned AVB to its own container ... could there be enough THC remaining to warrant a second bag?

I was hoping that with such a small amount to begin with, that I was getting most of what's in there, until seeing the CW Analytical VapirRise study yesterday.

Or, on the other hand, is it simply, as you recommend, a matter of just raising the temp?

Thank you :-)

 

[pakalolo]

Well, a month and a half into vaping, my plan has been for moderately low temps and remain there ... are you suggesting, pakalolo, that I can (eventually) extract most or all the THC while remaining at moderately low temps - e.g. with a second balloon from the same material, or hitting the Arizer Air a few more times?

With my ExtremeQ, I'm just putting a small amount (not quite enough to even cover the screen on the cyclone bowl) in the bowl, fan speed 1, then retiring the nicely and evenly browned AVB to its own container ... could there be enough THC remaining to warrant a second bag?

I was hoping that with such a small amount to begin with, that I was getting most of what's in there, until seeing the CW Analytical VapirRise study yesterday.

Or, on the other hand, is it simply, as you recommend, a matter of just raising the temp?

Thank you :-)

Raising the temperature is simplest. Yes, you can probably extract more without raising the temperature, but it is likely that it won't be satisfying for you.

My advice is to experiment. Try the higher temperature, and also try taking some of your ABV and hitting it at a higher temperature. That will give you an idea of what you're leaving in the ABV and whether you want to extract it. Some people don't and you could be one of them. Try to be methodical in your experiments so you can tell what works and what doesn't. Change only one thing at a time. Keep notes. Have fun.

 

[TomC1315]

thanks pakalolo :-)

good lookin' out !

 

[EverythingsHazy]

This will depend on how long you spend at the lower temperature. You can still release all the THC, it just takes longer. Think of water: if you heat it to 10° below boiling and leave it at that temperature, it will still all evaporate, it will just take longer. What would be helpful is to know how long it takes at the lower temperature.

Anyway, raising your temperature will definitely help.

This is what I was wondering about Benzene and other chemicals that have boiling points over 390F. are you really getting more of them at higher temps, or just getting them all i the first hit, instead of spread out over 2-4+ hits.

 

[pakalolo]

This is what I was wondering about Benzene and other chemicals that have boiling points over 390F. are you really getting more of them at higher temps, or just getting them all i the first hit, instead of spread out over 2-4+ hits.

In Cannabis "Vaporization": A Promising Strategy for Smoke Harm Reduction (J. of Cannabis Therapeutics Vol 1 No. 3/4, 2001, pp. 153-170), Dale H. Gieringer included the unquantified comment that "Significant amounts of benzene, toluene, and naphthalene were observed above 200°C..." Benzene boils at 80°C (176°F) and toluene boils at 110°C (231°F). Napthalene has a much higher boiling point (218°C/425°F), which is near the top of vaporizing temperatures. I'm not an organic chemist, but it seems to me that the only way that benzene or toluene could be present at 200°C but not below is if they are formed in the gaseous state, possibly from naphthalene breaking down. If the naphthalene were already present (like THC is for example) then it would be gradually released in increasing quantity as the boiling point is approached. You therefore would not get everything in the first hit, it would be spread out through the range from the detection temperature of 200° to the boiling point of 225°C. If it forms, as benzene and toluene must, then I'm unsure of the answer to your question.

I've said many times that I find it disturbing that Gieringer did not quantify the amount he found, yet he used the word "significant" to describe the amount. In scientific papers, this word is not supposed to be used causally like that. It has a specific meaning and should always be accompanied by a p value expressing the probability. We are therefore left wondering what he really meant and whether the exposure to these compounds adds any risk. You are exposed to benzene constantly in normal life, so it isn't clear whether the benzene produced during vapourization matters. Yes, the safe exposure level for benzene is 0, but I am talking about incremental risk. I believe any increase is not enough to matter to me. No doubt some would disagree.

 

[grokit]

I'm interested in the difference in benzine inhaled from vaping vs. smoking, as I have always assumed it's less but these temps seem to indicate that we're getting all of it, or it's the same either way?

 

[pakalolo]

I'm interested in the difference in benzine inhaled from vaping vs. smoking, as I have always assumed it's less but these temps seem to indicate that we're getting all of it, or it's the same either way?

It is difficult to find information about this, but I am confident that smoking produces a lot more benzene than vapourizing. The reason is that most benzene in cigarette smoke is produced at temperatures far above the combustion point. In the study Formation of mainstream cigarette smoke constituents prioritized by the World Health Organization – Yield patterns observed in market surveys, clustering and inverse correlations (Piadé, J.-J., and S. Wajrock, G. Jaccard, G. Janeke. Food and Chemical Toxicology 55 (2013) pp 329–347) the authors discuss the formation of benzene:

Benzene can be formed at low temperature (about 300°C) by tobacco pyrolysis, probably from the decomposition of compounds containing C6-ring moieties, but a larger amount is formed between 450°C and 600°C (Burton and Childs, 1977). Benzene formation from tobacco pyrolysis is highest at very high temperatures, and the presence of oxygen increases the benzene yield (Burton and Childs, 1977)...​

They are talking about tobacco (because they are Philip Morris researchers) but I don't see why the behaviour would vary much for cannabis.

 

[dubbydoo]

Whats the best portable with temp setting on it

What is benzene

 

[Pyr0]

Benzene is an a hydrocarbon with detrimental health effects:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene#Health_effects

 

[dubbydoo]

Benzene is an a hydrocarbon with detrimental health effects:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzene#Health_effects

Thanks

 

[pakalolo]

I can imagine having a medical need for some particular turpene or group of turpenes that vaped at a particular temp that I knew +/- a couple degrees. Under those circumstances the Herbalizer might be the best and possibly the only commercial vape that could do that simply and effectively. Then the Herbie would be worth it no matter it's cost.

It doesn't work like that. All compounds or groupings thereof are released in increasing quantities as they approach the vapourization temperature. Precise temperature control isn't necessary. You just have to get close.

 

[cybrguy]

Great, Pak. Bring me over to another thread I have to read...

Hey, I'm sill something of a noob regarding this stuff, especially as it comes to the science. All I was trying to do is find SOME rationale for spending what an Herbalizer costs and if fine temp control isn't it than I don't know what is. Guess I'll have to buy a Zion. Oh, wait...

 

[pakalolo]

Trying to get the most out of this vape by understanding terpenes extraction points of different strains. I was starting at 180 then bump to 190 and finish at 200, but this graph shows certain strains with terpense extraction at 160 and others at 200c, so its hard to figure perfect heat extraction point. Here is graph and article if any fellow vapors was to check it out.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/leafly-s3/...Leafly-Cannabis-Terpene-Wheel-Infographic.png

https://www.leafly.com/news/cannabi...-cannabis-terpenes-and-how-do-they-affect-you

I would argue that there is no perfect extraction temperature—for anything. You just need to get close. First, you are not dealing with binary release points. The boiling point is just the temperature at which 100% vapourization happens, but there is always vapour produced at lower temperatures, just in lower percentages. Second, the compounds exist in a matrix, which affects both the boiling point and the effects. Third, even for the same strain, variations in growing, harvesting, and curing will result in variations in the compounds produced. Finally, everyone reacts differently. The perfect temperature for you for this harvest of this strain won't be my perfect temperature.

You can use graphs like this to find the ballpark. After that, it's all about experimenting to find what works for you.

 

[subway13029]

Off topic but sort of on..wouldnt if you were gonna temp step from say 360 to 380 to 400 to get all of the actives..wouldnt if you just went to 4o0 that you would get a of the actives from the lower temps anyways?you just wouldnt get the different flavor terps and such??

 

[pakalolo]

Off topic but sort of on..wouldnt if you were gonna temp step from say 360 to 380 to 400 to get all of the actives..wouldnt if you just went to 4o0 that you would get a of the actives from the lower temps anyways?you just wouldnt get the different flavor terps and such??

I moved your question here because it is off-topic for the Mighty thread.

You're correct. The effects will also be different because the various active compounds affect each other.

 

[stickstones]

I know the differing effects is technically correct, but anecdotally, has anyone actually experienced a noticeable difference in the effects?

 

[MinnBobber]

My advice is to experiment. Try the higher temperature, and also try taking some of your ABV and hitting it at a higher temperature. That will give you an idea of what you're leaving in the ABV and whether you want to extract it. Some people don't and you could be one of them. Try to be methodical in your experiments so you can tell what works and what doesn't. Change only one thing at a time. Keep notes. Have fun.

............................................
X2. Take some of your ABV extracted at your low temps and crank the temp up to see what happens.
Please report back.
I recently had a vape that seemed to be fading/ getting less performance. Was my tolerance going up or was it a vape problem??
I used that ABV in another vape and got hammered----there was a lot left.

I often vape a load at low temps in the morning and stop there. Then at bedtime, up the temp and there is definitely a lot left !!!

 

[stickstones]

I know the differing effects is technically correct, but anecdotally, has anyone actually experienced a noticeable difference in the effects?

I should clarify that I meant a difference between temp stepping and going straight to the top temp. I wonder if the session effects are different. I can't say I've ever noticed anything.

 

[pakalolo]

I should clarify that I meant a difference between temp stepping and going straight to the top temp. I wonder if the session effects are different. I can't say I've ever noticed anything.

You go too fast maybe. If I only take 1-2 hits every 20 minutes, which is my usual style, I find that the difference is noticeable.

 

[ntaylor]

I know the differing effects is technically correct, but anecdotally, has anyone actually experienced a noticeable difference in the effects?

Good question! I hope that you get a ton of responses.

I usually start around 180 degrees and gradually increase as the cloud weakens .... yields a mellow head trip that stays light even as the temp is stepped up. The throat sensations just gets harsh.

Sometimes I'll crank the Volcano up to 220 degrees for the first balloon ... yields more of a body trip, but nothing like with a direct draw device. With my Mighty at 210 degrees for the first hit, a slow and deep draw can be similar to hitting a joint ... the definition of stoned!

 

[grokit]

I can't say I've ever noticed anything.

Me neither, if I finish at the top temp the effect is the same

 

[CarolKing]

Doesn't a lot have to do with how much moisture too that's in your cannabis to begin with. How would that differ when measuring the goodies in our product? We lose medicinal value when our cannabis is exposed to air and other elements, even handling.

I know some of the growers are very particular how they handle their cannabis at the Cannabis Farmers Market. Also at the dispensaries they don't want to handle the merchandise too much - they use tweezers.

Ive heard too that it isn't good to store your cannabis in plastic bags, even if you keep them in a dark, cool area.

All those elements I would think make a difference as to how your cannabis medicates and temp would be affected.

I generally have to turn the heat down if my cannabis is a bit dry or its too harsh.

 

[pakalolo]

Doesn't a lot have to do with how much moisture too that's in your cannabis to begin with.

Not really. Water's vapourization point is so low that any moisture is gone by the time you reach cannabis vapourization temperature. Even the low temp flavour-chasers like me will be at least 60°C (140°F) over the boiling point for H2O. Damp material increases the initial energy needed to get started but dries out quickly.

 

[CarolKing]

Thanks for all the info and sharing your years of knowledge. I learn a lot around here. You are a great group - we are all striving for the same thing. These types of info helps us make the most out of our vaporizing experience. Get the max from our medical budget.