Vaporization temperature dependent selection of effects

[Enchantre]

Hey, I had a thought.

I was just coming out of my yoga session, with lots of focus, and had a quick high THC hit with some crumble, low-temp with the log vape. I noticed the moment that my throat registered some irritation, which was several seconds after I'd finished the hit, which means it was the second or third breath after.

Rather than the "dryness" of the vapor, which I've never quite believed for low temps, I'm thinking that the THC itself, being absorbed by the mucus membranes of the nasal, mouth, and throat, triggers immediate dehydration of the MM surface, perhaps to prevent tail-gating by virii, perhaps to prevent over-saturation of THC in the delicate tissues.

Vaping through water, especially warm water, seems to soothe... however, I've had as good/better results from just drinking a glass of water with a pinch of sea salt in it after to re-moisturize the MM surface. Even coffee helps, as "drying" as it is purported to be.

I believe that the whole dry mouth/eyes phenomenom is that surface response - protective, I think, though annoying - is not signally systemic dehydration as I had originally thought.

TL/DR: Throat irritation might mean more THC absorption, not vapor irritation. Discuss?

 

[nicelytoasted]

Interesting theory, @Enchantre

I've often thought that the throat/lung, drying/irritation was caused by all of the following factors (perhaps more):

The temperature of the air stream itself, the absorption of the cannabinoids and terpenoids at the MM (as you mention), and possibly the most, from the inhalation of the aerosol and particulate phases of the vapour, itself (aerosols being a mix of gaseous and particulate phases, ~ 1.0 microns(u) and less, in size).

Keep in mind that humans inhale particulates @ ~ 10u and less, and respire @ ~ 2.5u and less, in size. This means that the smallest particles (aerosols) are able to reach the deepest parts of the lungs. High temperature vaping does cause more particulates of all sizes to be released into the air stream (since it chars the organic plant material more) than low temperature vaping, relatively, but both do contribute, imo.

Thankfully we are able to mitigate these effects with water in our glass, and drinks to accompany our seshes. I have also found that even tongue bonging (blocking vapour from going directly down the throat to the lungs with the tongue) can help with this.

As always, we at FC need to vape even more, in the name of to test out all our theories!

Cheers

Ntd

 

[Enchantre]

Wow. I was vaped.

Dryer MM surfaces allow MORE invaders... not less. Would not be protective... but, perhaps, it is a response to encourage more hydration, to improve vitality.

Yes. More experimentation is required....

 

[Neicey76]

Incredible post and read my friends ! I think this makes me look at certain suggestions In a new light sorta . Thk u so much for all your work !

 

[C No Ego]

Hey, I had a thought.

I was just coming out of my yoga session, with lots of focus, and had a quick high THC hit with some crumble, low-temp with the log vape. I noticed the moment that my throat registered some irritation, which was several seconds after I'd finished the hit, which means it was the second or third breath after.

Rather than the "dryness" of the vapor, which I've never quite believed for low temps, I'm thinking that the THC itself, being absorbed by the mucus membranes of the nasal, mouth, and throat, triggers immediate dehydration of the MM surface, perhaps to prevent tail-gating by virii, perhaps to prevent over-saturation of THC in the delicate tissues.

Vaping through water, especially warm water, seems to soothe... however, I've had as good/better results from just drinking a glass of water with a pinch of sea salt in it after to re-moisturize the MM surface. Even coffee helps, as "drying" as it is purported to be.

I believe that the whole dry mouth/eyes phenomenom is that surface response - protective, I think, though annoying - is not signally systemic dehydration as I had originally thought.

TL/DR: Throat irritation might mean more THC absorption, not vapor irritation. Discuss?

I've read recently where the size of the thc molecule is what irritates the throat and is why they/we could not use misty spray thc in an asthma inhaler. this size too is in relation to the heated decarboxylate cannabinoid and not the raw unheated cannabinoid in its carbon form.heat decarboxylation also allows the thc molecule to be the correct size to be absorbed neurally in our receptors, hence the high which is a neuronal mediated function.

I read somewhere where the drymouth red eye effect is why cannabis is so good for qlaucoma as the blood responds to cannabinoids.

 

[JimmyCricket]

What is the consensus on how temperature effects work with the manually powered vapes like MFLB, Lotus, Vapman. Wouldn't you be taking hits at a variety of temperatures, unlike taking hits from a consistent heat source? Say you only take a few hits and the herb is still green, how do you know what temperature effects you are about to get? How can you determine the temperature your vapeing at with manuals besides harshness? With manuals is it even possible to isolate the lower temperatures vs the higher temperatures or are they inevitably mixed together at a medium temp?

 

[pakalolo]

What is the consensus on how temperature effects work with the manually powered vapes like MFLB, Lotus, Vapman. Wouldn't you be taking hits at a variety of temperatures, unlike taking hits from a consistent heat source? Say you only take a few hits and the herb is still green, how do you know what temperature effects you are about to get? How can you determine the temperature your vapeing at with manuals besides harshness? With manuals is it even possible to isolate the lower temperatures vs the higher temperatures or are they inevitably mixed together at a medium temp?

Yes, you can vary the temperature of the hit, but you're only getting them at a variety of temperatures if you are either inexperienced or experimenting. Regular users of these devices know how to get consistent temperatures within a few degrees. Precision doesn't matter. You don't need to know what temperature you're hitting, you just need to know how to get it consistently. The harshness of the draw is definitely your best indicator, but flavour changes are important too. Remember, despite the precise temperatures possible with some designs, you're still only in the ballpark because of other variables like strain and dryness. That's because all of the boundaries are fuzzy; there's no set temperature at which a particular compound is suddenly released.

I think for most heat-on-demand designs, it is possible for an experienced user to keep temperatures low enough to exploit the lower temperature compounds. I certainly can do it with my MFLB, and even with the insanely powerful FV.

 

[jojo monkey]

What is the consensus on how temperature effects work with the manually powered vapes like MFLB, Lotus, Vapman. Wouldn't you be taking hits at a variety of temperatures, unlike taking hits from a consistent heat source? Say you only take a few hits and the herb is still green, how do you know what temperature effects you are about to get? How can you determine the temperature your vapeing at with manuals besides harshness? With manuals is it even possible to isolate the lower temperatures vs the higher temperatures or are they inevitably mixed together at a medium temp?

Yeah, there is lots of guesswork and trial and error. I ran my vape on a dimmer and I found myself using a clock to measure the temps. I'd make rules like wait x minutes between hits or wait x minutes after I turn it on. A temp readout will give you more info than a clock.

pakalolo - An inaccurate temp readout will still give you a set number than you can use. I have found flavor to be lost in as little as a 10 degree difference with my experiments and my vape measures the temps from the outside. So precise control can get you there without accuracy. (I think you mean accuracy when you speak of precision?)

 

[pakalolo]

pakalolo - An inaccurate temp readout will still give you a set number than you can use. I have found flavor to be lost in as little as a 10 degree difference with my experiments and my vape measures the temps from the outside. So precise control can get you there without accuracy. (I think you mean accuracy when you speak of precision?)

You're correct about an inaccurate temperature display, since all you need is consistency. My point was that with a little experience, you don't need a temperature display at all. You can be accurate enough by recognizing the changes in the character of the vapour as you inhale. If you don't learn this skill then you probably won't stick with using a "manually controlled" device, as the OP calls them.

 

[JimmyCricket]

You're correct about an inaccurate temperature display, since all you need is consistency. My point was that with a little experience, you don't need a temperature display at all. You can be accurate enough by recognizing the changes in the character of the vapour as you inhale. If you don't learn this skill then you probably won't stick with using a "manually controlled" device, as the OP calls them.

Can you elaborate more on the details of this? What changes should I be looking for? How do I know if i've crossed the line from low temp to medium temp?

 

[pakalolo]

Can you elaborate more on the details of this? What changes should I be looking for? How do I know if i've crossed the line from low temp to medium temp?

I can't tell you these things, you have to learn them for yourself. It's a product of experience.

 

[uhranium]

I'm still baffled how I could miss this for so long ( I basciall knew that THC with it's effects is being released at lower temperatures than CBD but I still puffed all years on level 6 on my volcano at least).

For my german vaporists I translated the VRAPP schedule

have fun.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1hgFgX1YjfFG-oOTuVBfgBrhrZoeUUZ0OjFRZ_Pr85Ao/edit?usp=sharing

 

[dormouse]

Does anyone have any experience with letting (much of) the THC evaporate and then vaping the abv for CBD, for pain and anxiety reduction primarily? Several people (non users) have contacted me lately for help, and I'd like to try and help them in a way that minimizes undesired effects.

 

[stickstones]

We had an herbalizer user do this with bags for his mother with cancer. He would consume the low temp bags that she didn't like and then blew high temp bags for her.

 

[Popcorn Lung]

So is it safe to say we go from THC to CBD?

I love the initial effect of the lower settings. It's the higher settings that make me feel relaxed and my body tingling. I'm still wet behind the ears so I don't know. What I do know is it's fun getting different effects. It's a beautiful thing and I look forward to it on a daily!

 

[vorrange]

THC "turns" into CBN, not CBD.

Usually, if a plant has a higher % of THC, it has less CBD to start with.

The higher settings offer more sedative cannabinoids, which balances the THC effects felt at lower temperatures.

 

[grokit]

Also cbd is desirable as medicine, while cbn is completely undesirable imho.

 

[pakalolo]

Also cbd is desirable as medicine, while cbn is completely undesirable imho.

That depends on your needs. CBN is a sedative, and it also intensifies the effects of THC.

 

[grokit]

That depends on your needs. CBN is a sedative, and it also intensifies the effects of THC.

In my 40+ years of experience CBN does not intensify any of the pleasing qualities of THC, and instead degrades them and makes me feel like shit. This makes much more sense to me:

"THC (Tetrahydrocannabinol) gets a user high, a larger THC content will produce a stronger high. Without THC you don't get high.

CBD (Cannabidiol) increases some of the effects of THC and decreases other effects of THC. High levels of THC and low levels of CBD contribute to a strong, clear headed, more energetic high.

Cannabis that has a high level of both THC and CBD will produce a strong head-stone that feels almost dreamlike. Cannabis that has low levels of THC and high levels of CBD produces more of a buzz or stoned feeling. The mind feels dull and the body feels tired.

CBN (Cannabinol) is produced as THC ages and breaks down, this process is known as oxidization. High levels of CBN tend to make the user feel messed up rather than high.

CBN levels can be kept to a minimum by storing cannabis products in a dark, cool, airtight environment. Marijuana should be dry prior to storage, and may have to be dried again after being stored somewhere that is humid.

THCV (Tetrahydrocannabivarin) is found primarily in strains of African and Asian cannabis. THCV increases the speed and intensity of THC effects, but also causes the high to end sooner. Weed that smells strong (prior to smoking) might indicate a high level of THCV.

CBC (Cannabichromene) is probably not psychoactive in pure form but is thought to interact with THC to enhance the high.

CBL (Cannabicyclol) is a degradative product like CBN. Light converts CBC to CBL.

If you are a grower, you can experiment with different strains of cannabis to produce the various qualities you seek. A medical user looking for something with sleep inducing properties might want to produce a crop that has high levels of CBD.

Another user looking for a more energetic stone will want to grow a strain that has high levels of THC and low levels of CBD. In general, Cannabis sativa has lower levels of CBD and higher levels of THC. Cannabis indica has higher amounts of CBD and lower amounts of THC than sativa.

also:

Cannabinol - CBN

Cannabinol - CBN is not produced by the plant per se. It is the degradation (oxidative) product of THC. Fresh samples of marijuana contain very little CBN but curing, poor storage, or processing such as when making hashish, can cause much of the THC to be oxidized to CBN. Pure forms of CBN have at most 10 percent of the psychoactivity of THC.

Like CBD, it is suspected of potentiating certain aspects of the high, although so far these effects appear to be slight. CBN seems to potentiate THC's disorienting qualities. One may feel more dizzy or drugged or generally messed up but not necessarily higher.

In fact, with a high proportion of CBN, the high may start well but feels as if it never quite reaches its peak, and when coming down one feels tired or sleepy. High CBN in homegrown grass is not desirable since it represents a loss of 90 percent of the psychoactivity of its precursor THC."


The above information was reportedly distilled from:

"Cannabis and Cannabinoids:
Pharmacology, Toxicology, and Therapeutic Potential"

http://www.420magazine.com/forums/c...76763-marijuana-cannabinoids-thc-cbd-cbn.html

 

[uhranium]

what's meant by curing? Cutting of leaves?
Or letting the weed slowly dry 5min a day in a glass jar?
/after pre-drying it partially to get rid of mold-danger


Sounds fkin familiar, I sometimes feel so odd after killing only the darkest ABV at 210°C when I'm out of fresh stuff.

 

[pakalolo]

Like CBD, it is suspected of potentiating certain aspects of the high, although so far these effects appear to be slight. CBN seems to potentiate THC's disorienting qualities.

potentiate: v.t., 1. to cause to be potent; make powerful. 2. to increase the effectiveness of; intensify
​

One may feel more dizzy or drugged or generally messed up but not necessarily higher.

Since a lot of people think feeling drugged is the same as feeling high, I'd say this sentence is pretty subjective at best.

I get that you don't like it or want it, particularly since it is a product of degradation, nevertheless some people want the effects. It's not useless.

 

[uhranium]

These "disoriented" and "messed up" feelings I often get when I vape some abv of low quality stuff at 210°C at 8am. It is like your body is in a constant vibration (Super hard to descripe inner feelings). Like you could fall apart if you drop. feeling like a porcelain vase. Definitively not one of the better effects of medicating.

 

[grokit]

I get that you don't like it or want it, particularly since it is a product of degradation, nevertheless some people want the effects. It's not useless.

My recent experience confirmed these negative effects. I got ahold of something being passed off as "last year's g13", but was described as being a sativa. This was a dead givaway in hindsight, as g13 is well-known as being 100% indica. I couldn't stand the stuff, which was because it was so degraded it had passed the tipping point of offering anything beneficial on its own even though it had okay bag appeal; it seemed like it was cured well, no mold etc. You're correct that it still had something to offer, as I found that when I mixed it with my usual indica-heavy hybrid; it turned into just okay. But when that tipping point is passed it's not just the effects, it's downright unpalatable on its own to the point of feeling toxic. It wasn't just me, from what I gather it was pretty widely distributed in my little town and absolutely everyone hated it.

 

[ginolicious]

I thought I preferred my temps at 170C. Turns out I'm really enjoying 188C

 

[herbivore21]

Also cbd is desirable as medicine, while cbn is completely undesirable imho.

Depends what you're treating man, if you're treating insomnia, then CBN is quite desirable