Vaporization temperature dependent selection of effects

[RastaBuddhaTao]

You just blew my mind, @ShadowVape , with your talk of droplet size for differing compounds and effect!

@RastaBuddhaTao - how do you achieve laminar flow? I get turbulence...that's easy. But how do you create order?

Laminar results when a flow front is allowed to reach equilibrium. So, the frictional forces of the walls of the tube create drag and slow down the flow as compared to the air in the center. This creates a football shaped flow front. In process instrumentation they like 10 diameters of straight length in from of a sensor to get true readings. Transitions, elbows and flow impingement disrupt and turbulate the flow. A turbulent flow front is more square flow front filled with chaos.

The turbulence also creates changes in the flow front pressures.

So I believe that the material in the load creates turbulent flow which is good as they maximizes heat transfer. Turbulent flow fronts have a smaller temperature gradient than laminar.

 

[stickstones]

I'm still stumped as to how you create laminar flow. Does it take a lot of distance in the air path or can it be achieved rather quickly? The chamber in the MV is no deeper than half an inch, and the heat exchanger with screen is right below that. I was sitting there last night wondering how air flow could be smoothed in just a short distance, and how it would be happening...

 

[RastaBuddhaTao]

I'm still stumped as to how you create laminar flow. Does it take a lot of distance in the air path or can it be achieved rather quickly? The chamber in the MV is no deeper than half an inch, and the heat exchanger with screen is right below that. I was sitting there last night wondering how air flow could be smoothed in just a short distance, and how it would be happening...

Yeh it's just Mother Nature's state of equilibrium. Depends on wall surface roughness, velocity, tube diameter, fluid characteristics but yes in general it is a required distance with no agitation. I guess I need to look at the MV to gain a better understanding but in my mind laminar is a bad thing. Since the velocity is higher in the center with laminar flow more heat energy is delivered there and thus the reason you typically have higher temperature (over vaporization) and lower temperatures at the wall (under vaporization). That is why the Zion has a diffusion screen right in front of the load to excite turbulence for more uniform vaporization. I even have thought about adding a blind spot in the center to force more flow to the outer diameters. I haven't yet as that would add pressure drop and with the small load that I am using the vaporization is very uniform to the point where it doesn't even require stirring

Sick Rig Jojo! So you are adding a flow restriction on the downstream side of the load? What is the physics that causes the thick vapor? Does changes in load / grind density do the same as it effects the pressure drop? I have negligible pressure drop I. My design in attempts to eliminate the "milk shake". Effect but maybe I Want pressure drops in certain places to improve vapor quality. This thread is really changing the way I think about things!!!

Modnote: Posts merged

I know ... BtB post, please merge... Edit didn't seem to work. Can't sleep... Had to get this thought out. So if I assume is correct on that we believe that higher the negative pressure (vacuum from suction) the more essential elements get liberated into the vapor stream at a given temperature. So, in order for you to increase the vacuum on the load is to increase the pressure drop in front of it (ie a small inlet hole) and nearly no pressure drop anywhere else in the system. The other variable required is for the user to suck like he's pulling a golf ball through a garden hose lol. Given the last variable sucks for the user I hope either my understanding is wrong or I hope partial pressure effect is small and we all can enjoy low pressure drop devices and save the sucking for real milkshakes lmao

 

[stickstones]

So laminar flow happens naturally when the path is cleared. Thanks!

 

[jojo monkey]

RastaBuddhaTao -

I think I had the reverse problem you had, I wanted a little milk shake with my vape. The main part is 24mm wide and hits far too fast without some resistance. By removing little bits from the cotton ball in the handle I was able to finely tweak the flow to where it feels right. I had to lower the temps the more I restricted the airflow.

I wish I had a deeper understanding of the physics. My original goal was to see a couple of off the shelf lab glass parts could be used as a vape. They can. After the basic version worked I refined it more and more until the pic above.

I have not played with different size grinds. I will give it a shot for research!

 

[RastaBuddhaTao]

Well its a super dope rig. Got like this retro chemistry class vibe

 

[ShadowVape]

Jojo Monkey what a sweet rig! While I'd argue your all glass path claim since I don't think the heat is coming from an all glass conduit to your extraction chamber (maybe I'm wrong though please advise --- the element is glass encapsulated though right?) and you're insistence on a digital readout without the qualification that it actually needs to correspond to the point of extraction (not possible IMHO without a metallic probe I wouldn't want by my melting flowers) if I'm properly understanding what I'm seeing there I'd say you've got about as PERFECT of a temp (and thermal mass and vacuum FTM) dependent research rig I've ever seen! I love that it's got moisture conditioning so you can actually sample all the variations without drying out your throat too! Can you share some more spec detail on the rig and some more pics? Are you in Cali by chance? I'd love to sponsor some testing if we could sort some logistics and maybe help sorting a glass conduit to deliver the heat if it isn't already glass (for research purposes at least) --- this is Mark McCoy founder of VripTech BTW and not Shadow our CSR although Shadow is impressed too (we where both checking the pic earlier)!

And as far as physics go crew understanding (or at least playing with and remembering the results) the venturi effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venturi_effect) in relation to placement of the substrate (herbs/concentrate) from which you're extracting and the thermo conductivity, thermal mass, and polarity of the materials making the extraction chamber especially (it could be argued the rest of the kit too since we're talking what is actually delivered right? --- I'd definitely argue the element polarity and mass at a minimum) and now you're scratching deep. With everything else staying the same it's the venturi you're playing with by changing diameters or plugging intake or output orifices and yup as you've found tiny differences can yield rather substantial differences in vapor quality. We ground the prototypes to our current VCB4.2 bowl IDs in tenths of a millimeter variants until we got the money ID we felt best matched up with our upper intake piece to create the perfect venturi with a typical pull rate curve (not a baby lung, but not a monster set either --- starting slow and finishing much like regular water pipe smoking average Joe comfortable rip). A tenth of a mm not a real noticeable difference, but a couple of tenths of a mm and you can definitely feel the flow rate, and in turn, vapor consistency differences at the same temp and comparable grind and pack. It doesn't take much.

I love the use of the beads to alter the thermal mass...really good shit Jojo!

 

[RastaBuddhaTao]

Anyway we could get a vid demo of that bad boy Jo Jo? ...like with a 101 walk-through of each part and function/control?

 

[jojo monkey]

ShadowVape - Hi, Mark! Thanks for the interest and for being so kind. I am a fan of your heat wand vape.

The copper color can be deceiving, but the vape has an all glass air path. The cartridge heater is inside of a glass adapter and is surrounded by thermal paste. That glass adapter is inside of the outer 3-way adapter. The copper color is just the paste that is visible through the inner glass adapter.

This pic of the glass parts should help: http://i.imgur.com/G3oe13S.jpg

I have more pics/info in the thread for the vape (link below). The short of it is that I am using standard heating parts, that could be used for a kiln or sous-vide, and marrying them to 3 lab glass parts.

RastaBuddhaTao - I'll put something together in the lab glass vape thread. BTW, I like your vape too.

http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/the-lab-glass-vaporizer.16879/

 

[ShadowVape]

Brilliant bro I'm familiar with the parts we've got a bunch of kilns in the shop! A few posts back I even said that a mini-kiln set-up would probably be the best approach for a standardized research rig and BAM there you are! Nice work I'm going to check your thread and pics. Bless up! 1.

 

[RastaBuddhaTao]

Thanks for the picture Jo Jo that helped a ton.

Shadow, what do you mean by moisture conditioning.

Man I have a long way to go to understanding and optimizing flow paths lol.

 

[LutherBlissett]

I really like the spirit of this line of enquiry, but I am personally rather inclined to suspend my judgement till a bit more hard scientific data can be brought to bear on the question.

 

[Ricardo]

There is still flavour, but most people don't like it. It's disparagingly called "the burnt popcorn taste". I've never tasted anything at any temperature that reminded me of burnt popcorn, but I do know the taste of high temperature vaping. I swim against the tide, because I find it interesting. I can keep going much longer than some of my friends, who feel that it tastes awful. I think it's an acquired taste, like black coffee, or Scotch. I'd say don't make assumptions based on what other people tell you. Experiment and find out for yourself, it's much more fun.

I'm with you there mate. It's very easy to discard product at this stage and if you use it for cooking, fine. But just because it tastes dry at high temperatures after you've worked your way up the temps doesn't mean it's useless. I give it a stir and vape the last of it - the taste ain't great but I'll usually have some juice or water to wash it down. As long as there's vapour at max temp, there's usually some (surprisingly good) kick in it

 

[LutherBlissett]

I made my own glass air path vape and have been adding mass to it over time. The more glass beads I added to it, the less weed I needed to use to get dense vapor. This was my solution to avoiding expensive glass parts.

I hope more vape manufacturers add temp readouts in the face of charts like the one in this thread. Knowledge is power.

I love this kind of picture. It's the kind of thing across which uninitiated internet users sometimes stumble, perhaps while searching for something else, only to stop and wonder what the hell these people in this forum are up to.

 

[ShadowVape]

Thanks for the picture Jo Jo that helped a ton.

Shadow, what do you mean by moisture conditioning.

Man I have a long way to go to understanding and optimizing flow paths lol.

Moisture conditioning meaning simply running the vapor through water and/or past ice to cool and moisten before inhaling. Because with most of our herbs of choice it isn't even the tars eliminated by going vapor that are so harmful to the T-bronchial tree since they are coughed up and spit out the next morning thanks to the medicinal expectorant effect of the herbs --- what does the damage (long and short term) is the heat and the dryness (whether vapor or smoke). So while vapor is undeniably stronger, better tasting, smoother and cleaner than smoke and a bit cooler at point of extraction and delivery everything else the same you still want to moisture condition it --- especially if you like your Aromatherapy daily or multiple times a day. To test it out just take a bunch of dry pulls then check your throat the next am --- take the same number of pulls same device just run it through some water and/or ice in a decent water pipe and check the throat again the next am. Actually better to do that in the opposite order so the dry throat comes secondary for a fair assessment.

And for those of you that hate the idea of water because your "losing actives" and fond of quoting the MAPS/NORML water pipe and vaporizer study remember the metrics relating to the loss of actives in the water pipe where based upon running smoke not vapor through the water. The tars in smoke are larger, stickier and much more water soluble than the actives in vapor state, but will take lots of those actives with when they get filtered (think big sticky water soluble tennis balls covered in smaller less water soluble BBs for a visual). Just run the actives (BBs) in pure vapor state through the water and yeah you lose some, but you've extracted multiples more (hopefully --- should have anyway if your kit is working right) and will still be delivering multiples more than you would smoking the same quantity of herbs. Just much nicer to the T-bronchial tree and improved overall cardiovascular health. If you just can't stand losing actives to water get a tube with a nice ice catch and go to town dry but cooled and conditioned with the melt that will take place as soon as you start pulling vapor through. We have some customers who prefer to just run ice, but a low water level with decent to maxi diffusion AND ice is the preferred tech for the team after many, many years of R&D.

Note to mods: not intentionally getting off subject just answering the question....hope that's cool!

 

[Ricardo]

Jeez, you guys are connoisseurs.....youse is some ninja stoners yo.

 

[stickstones]

We have some customers who prefer to just run ice, but a low water level with decent to maxi diffusion AND ice is the preferred tech for the team after many, many years of R&D.

Have you guys played around with hot water hits?

 

[Budstar]

So. if i vaporize at a higher temperature i will get a more "Stoned" high even tho its a sativa dominant strain?

 

[Ricardo]

So. if i vaporize at a higher temperature i will get a more "Stoned" high even tho its a sativa dominant strain?

I'd say that's about right, and it's a super high - I don't need much, just a pinch in the chamber of the Ascent, 4 or 5 draws and I'm away! Just watched new Bob Marley & the Wailers DVD Easy Skanking in Boston 1978 in this state of bliss! Magic

 

[pakalolo]

So. if i vaporize at a higher temperature i will get a more "Stoned" high even tho its a sativa dominant strain?

In general, yes. You will bias your vapour towards a body/couch-lock stone as well as better pain relief, but the degree will vary by strain. You'll also get bigger clouds, which might or might not be to your liking. Hotter vapour is harsher.

 

[Budstar]

In general, yes. You will bias your vapour towards a body/couch-lock stone as well as better pain relief, but the degree will vary by strain. You'll also get bigger clouds, which might or might not be to your liking. Hotter vapour is harsher.

But its still going to be pure vapor and no smoke? Dont have a vape yet. But saving up for a volcano

 

[pakalolo]

But its still going to be pure vapor and no smoke? Dont have a vape yet. But saving up for a volcano

As long as you stay below combustion temperatures, it will be vapour. If you get a Volcano, you won't be likely to reach combustion. It might be possible but I can't recall ever hearing about combustion with a Volcano.

 

[Stu]

It might be possible but I can't recall ever hearing about combustion with a Volcano.

Another example of things that only make sense on FC.

 

[nicelytoasted]

Another example of things that only make sense on FC.

Is that vapourization or combustion?

Convection or conduction?

 

[Budstar]

Is that vapourization or combustion?

Convection or conduction?

Looks like he is standing in a lava field