Vaporization temperature dependent selection of effects

[luchiano]

@pakalolo I stated destroyed meaning not what they originally were not meaning ceasing to exist. An example of this is thc. It boils at 392f according to the mercks index and oxidized to cbn at 226f or 266f I'm tired and dont feel like searching on this mobile. If you were to vape with the volcano on maximum temperature you will turn a lot of thc into cbn in the bag due to the temperature inside the bag is over 200f when you are at max temperature, according to the makers. This is what I mean by destroying the lower boiling substances when using temps much higher then their boiling point. Once the substance boils it can still be exposed to the hot air which will destroy what it originally was.

Good topic but nothing is being accomplished and I'm just repeating myself so I'm done with the convo. Peace.

 

[nicelytoasted]

Np Dreamerr, glad to help.

A general rule of thumb for dew points:

The closer the DP temp to the ambient temp, the more humid, especially at temps ~ 60F and above, where the air can hold so much more water. If the DP temp = the ambient temp, that is 100% RH, and rain is likely above 60F. Below that, and in calm wind conditions, you may get rain, or lots of night/morning fog (which we as vapist like ).


If you live near a desert, I'm sure you see very low DP temps most of the time, compared to the ambient temps.

 

[Dreamerr]

Usually 29.something. Right now it is 29.88. Learning is a good thing but there are certain things I am really dense about.

 

[Qatmaster]

If it worked the way you think it does then combustion would be a complete bust, because the components would be destroyed by the high heat.[/quote]

Aren't they? Don't we get something along the lines of 20% when combusting? It's a full spectrum 20%, but it's only an overall percentage of what's available.

I certainly get far more from vaping a gram than I did from combusting a gram, so it seems to me a great deal IS destroyed in that process. And it's not MY theory that cannabinoids are destroyed. It's chemistry, and it's documented in the studies that lie behind tdavie's 2010 temp chart that this very thread is based on. The Weedist has a three part article on this topic, based in part on tdavie's work here.

In fact, scientists studying early cannabinoids actually destroyed many of the very compounds we're discussing by using gas chromatography to "test" the samples. The act of testing destroyed compounds and thus "supported" the Big Lie American Theory of Pot: nothing good there... just a high so no medicinal value... Once a different way of testing plant matter was invented, those compounds were no longer trashed by the testing process itself, or so I've read in several unrelated places, including this site.

Again, not shopping for an argument, just looking to thresh the truth from the speculation so that I am not disseminating speculation in place of fact in my own life, and at my vaping blog at wordpress (vaping4life.wordpress.com) where I'm documenting the results of my process of converting the choir (making vapers of combusting smokers of pot). So far, this process has proven true. I can vape a sample 4 balloons full at any given temp, say 130c, and when the taste is gone at that temp, and I move up to my next temp spot (for me, 145c), I get whole new levels of flavor and taste. It's different, but it's steady and strong. And if I vape it FIRST at 145c, but then go back to 130c? I get no taste at all, no difference, no nothing. That's my personal results on a digital volcano, and it's held true for several samples of several strains, as well as with four or five other people, too. So far as I can tell from personal experimentation AND reading, the ladder goes one way because the heat affects some compounds more strongly than others at certain temps. And I've had a dozen balloons of low heat material before I turned it up to medium levels (where thc resides mostly, the 175 to 190 range), and man is that strong and tasty and stoney, no matter how much I've stripped the bottom end of it, temp wise.

So I appreciate YOUR opinion, but I can't agree, based on my actual experiences (anecdotal, admittedly) and based on the research behind tdavie's chart, going back thru the 90s and back to 1984 or 85, I think. It's been a month since I read that, but it's only been a day since I personally tested it with a friend who is, as a result, quite a believer now.

 

[vorrange]

The ratios are different because the ratio will change the longer you spend at a specific temperature. Eventually you will vapourize all the components that boil at that temperature and below, and you will increase the proportion of components that have boiling points higher than the selected temperature.

I agree with "you will vapourize all the components that boil at that temperature and below", but why would the higher boiling components increase?
It seems they would remain the same as in the begining, and are just waiting their temperature to start being extracted from the plant. Or, some will oxidate and so, the proportion will change due to the temperature sequence. Is this what you mean?

Think about heating water. Notice that vapour starts to appear from water at around half the boiling point. As the temperature approaches the boiling point, you get increased amounts of steam. This is happening to the components listed in the famous charts we've all seen, but people often think that vapourization is binary, e.g. nothing at 159°C, then everything at 160°C.

If one follows this logic, then couldn't we vape at a low enough temp to not degrade the lower temp terpenes all at once like 160C? Where can we base ourselves to choose the best starting temperature to extract the most terpenes?


@Qatmaster, what i think is wrong with your view of things is that you forget that most terpenes have higher boiling temps.

Caryophylene - 119C
Pinene - 156C
Myrcene - 168C
Carene - 168C
Cineole - 176C
Limonene - 177C
Cymene - 177C
Linalool - 198C
Terpineol - 209C
Borneol - 210C
alpha Terpineol - 218C
Pulegone - 224C

I'm not disputing your assessment of higher medical benefits, or effects felt. Just the reasoning that higher temps automatically mean, no terpene assimilation and terpene destruction.
I agree with this assessment and believe that terpenes work synergistically with THC and other cannabinoids and, as such, its assimilation ensures a richer and more complete array of efects.

We know that the ratios of CBD and CBN vs THC have a bigger correlation in effects felt than in their isolated concentrations.

 

[pakalolo]

I agree with "you will vapourize all the components that boil at that temperature and below", but why would the higher boiling components increase?
It seems they would remain the same as in the begining, and are just waiting their temperature to start being extracted from the plant. Or, some will oxidate and so, the proportion will change due to the temperature sequence. Is this what you mean?



If one follows this logic, then couldn't we vape at a low enough temp to not degrade the lower temp terpenes all at once like 160C? Where can we base ourselves to choose the best starting temperature to extract the most terpenes?


@Qatmaster, what i think is wrong with your view of things is that you forget that most terpenes have higher boiling temps.

Caryophylene - 119C
Pinene - 156C
Myrcene - 168C
Carene - 168C
Cineole - 176C
Limonene - 177C
Cymene - 177C
Linalool - 198C
Terpineol - 209C
Borneol - 210C
alpha Terpineol - 218C
Pulegone - 224C

I'm not disputing your assessment of higher medical benefits, or effects felt. Just the reasoning that higher temps automatically mean, no terpene assimilation and terpene destruction.
I agree with this assessment and believe that terpenes work synergistically with THC and other cannabinoids and, as such, its assimilation ensures a richer and more complete array of efects.

We know that the ratios of CBD and CBN vs THC have a bigger correlation in effects felt than in their isolated concentrations.

First, you can vapourize at 160°C and I highly recommend it. That was my preferred temperature when I had my Extreme. The vapour is thin but potent, and extremely tasty. You can start at lower temperatures and get good results too. The biggest reason that most people don't use low temperatures is the thickness of the vapour. FC is full of posts from people who want "big clouds" and just have to see the vapour.

As for your question, the ratio increases because vapour starts to form well below the boiling point and the amount given off increases proportionally as you approach the boiling point. Again, observe water as it heats to boiling.

@Qatmaster, I'd like to see a source for your 20% estimate. I don't know what the number is but I think it surely must be higher than 20%. I don't notice that much difference between vapourizing and smoking, but maybe I'm not remembering combustion well. It's been a long time now.

If the heat of combustion is changing things that much and @luchiano is right about the amount of destruction change brought about by sub-combustion temperatures, then there are compounds that you can get through vapourizing that are not available at all through combustion. I've never seen any research that mentions this. I've looked in the past for research that documents the temperatures at which cannabis compounds transform but I've not had any success. If either of you can link to something that would be appreciated.

The point is that these changes are happening and that they will differ based on the temperature you select and how you get there. Cannabis actives interact and if you change the mix then you change the effects somewhat. As I've said, this is poorly understood and barely studied, but anyone who has experimented much with temperature variation knows that this is true.

 

[vorrange]

But do you think there are losses if one starts at 160C vs a lower temperature?

I read somewhere that the losses due to pyrolisis are roughly 30% but i can't remember in which study i found it.

 

[pakalolo]

But do you think there are losses if one starts at 160C vs a lower temperature?

I read somewhere that the losses due to pyrolisis are roughly 30% but i can't remember in which study i found it.

If there are losses at temperatures as low as 160°C I'd expect them to be low. I might have misread @Qatmaster's comment about the 20%. For some reason I got the impression that he meant that we only get 20%, not that the loss was 20%. 20-30% loss seems reasonable to me, but again these are just my opinions. I would love to see quantified research.

 

[Dreamerr]

Find the answer guys and then when and if you do put it in dreamerr language

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

Page 23, up to 40% cannabinoid loss through combustion. You're welcome.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2100129/

 

[pakalolo]

Page 23, up to 40% cannabinoid loss through combustion. You're welcome.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2100129/

Thanks. Unfortunately the details of how that percentage was derived are behind a pay-wall, but I'm willing to accept it. It's a bit higher than I expected. Of course, it would be more helpful to this discussion if we could also find the percentage loss in vapourized cannabis. That's a number I would expect to be pretty low.

 

[luchiano]

I said I wouldn't post in this thread anymore but @Qatmaster I went to your blog and noticed you used .5 gram for your research. That is too much for efficient extraction because the temperature inside the bowl will be much lower then what you dialed in. You should use .1-.2 grams at the most since it will help keep the temperature more stable inside the bowl. @Hippie Dickie has said the bowl in his vaporizer can be 50 degrees lower then the temp dialed in, at the start of a session and his vaporizer is designed to where the herb is surrounded by heat, so the volcanos chamber temperature is probably way lower then his since the hot air is coming from up under the herb chamber and you are filling it to the max or close to it.

Also, try to go to the max temperature for your last puff as you will see you can get a strong effect off of very little since you will be extracting most of the substances from your herb. Just use some type of water tool to keep the air from being too hot, and harsh. A regular bong will do. Just put the volcano bags mouthpiece to the bowl on your bong and inhale.

 

[pakalolo]

I said I wouldn't post in this thread anymore but @Qatmaster I went to your blog and noticed you used .5 gram for your research. That is too much for efficient extraction because the temperature inside the bowl will be much lower then what you dialed in. You should use .1-.2 grams at the most since it will help keep the temperature more stable inside the bowl. @Hippie Dickie has said the bowl in his vaporizer can be 50 degrees lower then the temp dialed in, at the start of a session and his vaporizer is designed to where the herb is surrounded by heat, so the volcanos chamber temperature is probably way lower then his since the hot air is coming from up under the herb chamber and you are filling it to the max or close to it.

Also, try to go to the max temperature for your last puff as you will see you can get a strong effect off of very little since you will be extracting most of the substances from your herb. Just use some type of water tool to keep the air from being too hot, and harsh. A regular bong will do. Just put the volcano bags mouthpiece to the bowl on your bong and inhale.

You forgot to say all of that is alleged.

 

[Hippie Dickie]

You forgot to say all of that is alleged.

not ALL alleged ... the part about my vape having the herb at 50°F lower than the temperature display is accurate ... then during the hit, the temp of the herb rises to the displayed temperature. and, yeah, i'm using about 0.1g per session.

so i figure i'm getting a nice sweep of cannabinoids from say 330°F up to the 380°F setpoint (or whatever).

 

[pakalolo]

not ALL alleged ... the part about my vape having the herb at 50°F lower than the temperature display is accurate ... then during the hit, the temp of the herb rises to the displayed temperature. and, yeah, i'm using about 0.1g per session.

so i figure i'm getting a nice sweep of cannabinoids from say 330°F up to the 380°F setpoint (or whatever).

Heh. I should have included . I was just yanking his chain.

 

[Enchantre]

I will only add that I've been hitting my flowers pretty extensively at 9 on the EVO dial.. which, as far as I can tell, is about 140 - 180C (me and the IR thermometer are trying).

I get very light vapor (nearly invisible to totally invisible), great flavor, and I also had noticeable pain reduction, which I attribute to the anti-inflammatory effects. Very little "head", which pleases me greatly when I have to go to work.

The chart provided by this thread is great. Thank you.

 

[max]

I use at least 230° celsius, when i want to get all substances.

230 at the least? That's the maximum temp setting for the Volcano and very near combustion. While I can see someone finishing off a bowl at this elevated setting, in order to get the most out of it, I would never start one at such a high temp.

 

[rabblerouser]

Here is a list, that is easy to understand.
Sedatives are the calming substances, a bit like valium, i guezz.
I think cbd and cbn are some of those. I use at least 230° celsius, when i want to get all substances.

If you read the whole article you pulled that from, you'll see that it was pulled from this exact thread. And the original that tdavie referred to had more information like this, which actually doesn't list CBD as a sedative, although it does for CBN:

cannabidiol (CBD)
Boiling point: 160-180*C / 320-356 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Anxiolytic, Analgesic, Antipsychotic, Antiinflammatory, Antioxidant, Antispasmodic

Cannabinol (CBN)
Boiling point: 185*C / 365 degree Fahrenheit
Properties: Oxidation, breakdown, product, Sedative, Antibiotic

That full-er chart can be found by searching google for "boiling points and roles of cannabinoids".

 

[Vape-Nation]

This is a great source:
http://steephilllab.com/resources/cannabinoid-and-terpenoid-reference-guide/

 

[rabblerouser]

This is a great source:
http://steephilllab.com/resources/cannabinoid-and-terpenoid-reference-guide/

that's pretty awesome, skimming for just a minute brought me to linalool, which it mentions as floral and lavender. I got some super floral soap stuff once that i bet had a lot of that in it.

EDIT:
ok, and i finished the list pretty quick, that's my only complaint, not complete

 

[SOUR DIESEL]

Im too medicated to understand any of this
If i start on low heat and work my way up , until the entire bowl is vaped , will i get all the effects?

 

[pakalolo]

Im too medicated to understand any of this
If i start on low heat and work my way up , until the entire bowl is vaped , will i get all the effects?

You will get different effects. The reason is that the various compounds interact with each other, and by stepping through the range as opposed to going straight to the high end, you are changing the ratios and ultimately the effects.

Keep in mind that you can't select only a single component. As the heat rises, all of the components begin to vapourize, but the mix will have a higher percentage of the components that have boiling points at the temperature you've selected.

 

[Snappo]

You will get different effects. The reason is that the various compounds interact with each other, and by stepping through the range as opposed to going straight to the high end, you are changing the ratios and ultimately the effects.

Keep in mind that you can't select only a single component. As the heat rises, all of the components begin to vapourize, but the mix will have a higher percentage of the components that have boiling points at the temperature you've selected.

Now that's a post @pakalolo for the FC ages - so much said on this topic in so few words - perfectly! Thanks!!!

 

[Tonicklonic]

I'm fascinated with all this stuff. Where did you learn it from? Please email this is for health reasons I'm medicating an undiagnosable disease

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

It's 5 posts up... There are books and a multitude of articles on the medical benefits of various chemicals in cannabis available for free online. It's hard to point to any one specific site for learning as there's so much to cover, but Wikipedia has articles on a lot of the compounds that describe mode of action, effects, etc.