Vape Carts Health Crisis Megathread
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walkma666
Well-Known Member
It seems like a world of possibilities. Your notion of mineral oil dilutants being one, pesticides, who knows what with DIY carts and vapes, and cheap knock-offs created by bad actors who don't give a whoot. While it seems that a common sense remedy down the line would be federal legalization with regulation to ensure safe products, in the interim, I am leery of carts, and more so of carts that are not tied directly back to a reputable manufacturer.
They are one of the key players for sure, tons and tons of processors on ICmag and Future4200 were using their products.
Now attention is on Mass Terpenes, it's been suggested that their "Svrum" is not actually "flavorless terpenes" but instead squalene.
I wouldn't confuse regulation with safety, we would only have to look for 10 seconds at the FDA to see that facade.
Tranquility
Well-Known Member
Not "good intentions" but free market. The government can penalize makers of products if they don't disclose all the ingredients in that product. People can then choose how much safety they want to pay for. An immunocompromised person might pay extra for carts that have been handled under sterile conditions where I seek to avoid rat droppings in the oil. Brands can make whatever claim they think they want and there can be penalties if the claims are false--just like with other foods, drugs and cosmetics.
On another note and why I came, here's an update that lists some brands:
https://www.leafly.com/news/health/vape-pen-lung-disease-thc-oil-additive-investigation
And, the most current CDC message:
https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2019/s0830-statement-e-cigarette.html
They want clinicians to:
https://emergency.cdc.gov/newsletters/coca/081619.htm
https://emergency.cdc.gov/han/han00421.asp
Edit:
For those who don't want to read it all, one culprit is not things to thin the oil, but thicken it. (Because of our erroneous belief thick oil must be more pure.)
The Leafly article linked mentioned True Terpenes. Apparently, the way everyone has been using it is wrong. At least, that's what the spokeshole says. (I'd like to see the marketing to know if such a defense would stand up.)
As health officials investigate the source of the lung injuries, another possibility includes legal substances used incorrectly. Think of an extreme version of off-label use, where a physician prescribes a legal medication for a condition beyond the drug’s intended use.
That can put the legal makers of these products in a bind. For example, consider the case of True Terpenes, a leading manufacturer of terpenes and diluents based in Portland, OR. Their products are meant for specific purposes. But they have no control over the uses to which their customers put the products once they’re shipped.
Ben Disinger, the company’s marketing manager, told Leafly their leading diluent brand, Viscosity, is “recommend for use in winterized extracts.” (Winterizing means removing the extract’s fats and waxes.)
Disinger said that one recommended use of Viscosity is for diluting THC oil in cannabis balms and lotions meant to rub on the skin, not for ingestion or inhaling. Using such a diluent in vape pens, he said, is not an approved use. Burning or inhaling Viscosity might or might not be harmful, he said, but the company has no data either way.
“Nothing is proven to be safe for vaping,” said True Terpenes Chief Science Officer David Heldreth. “We are aware that people are using it for that use. We don’t recommend or direct them to do that. We don’t inherently believe there will be a danger, but it’s not something we can speak directly to because no one can.”
That can put the legal makers of these products in a bind. For example, consider the case of True Terpenes, a leading manufacturer of terpenes and diluents based in Portland, OR. Their products are meant for specific purposes. But they have no control over the uses to which their customers put the products once they’re shipped.
Ben Disinger, the company’s marketing manager, told Leafly their leading diluent brand, Viscosity, is “recommend for use in winterized extracts.” (Winterizing means removing the extract’s fats and waxes.)
Disinger said that one recommended use of Viscosity is for diluting THC oil in cannabis balms and lotions meant to rub on the skin, not for ingestion or inhaling. Using such a diluent in vape pens, he said, is not an approved use. Burning or inhaling Viscosity might or might not be harmful, he said, but the company has no data either way.
“Nothing is proven to be safe for vaping,” said True Terpenes Chief Science Officer David Heldreth. “We are aware that people are using it for that use. We don’t recommend or direct them to do that. We don’t inherently believe there will be a danger, but it’s not something we can speak directly to because no one can.”
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Ramahs
Fucking Combustion (mostly) Since February 2017
I live in a non-friendly state as well. Given that, I only buy packaged name-brand carts from trusted sources, or I make my own.
No-name e-juice is not worth the risk.
That of course means that I don't always have it available.
Is what it is.
No-name e-juice is not worth the risk.
That of course means that I don't always have it available.
Is what it is.
CANtalk
Well-Known Member
walkma666
Well-Known Member
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/31/...garettes-sickness.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share
Updated story. Disconcerting and still somewhat mysterious.
Updated story. Disconcerting and still somewhat mysterious.
These type of "damage control" responses are infuriating: nobody is using that type of diluent in lotions and topicals, because every ingredient used to make a topical is a diluent... at $6000 a gallon I'd like to hear testimonials of someone using it for lotions instead of $30/gallon coconut oil. Also their claim that Viscosity is for winterized oils would make absolutely zero difference in a lotion made up of fatty oils, so that's more damage control.
That's a sad reply from a sad company. I highly doubt they need a "Chief Science Officer" on board for formulating lotions.
But vaping has its own problems: To become inhalable, nicotine or THC, the high-inducing chemical in marijuana, must be mixed with solvents that dissolve and deliver the drugs. The solvents, or oils, heat up during aerosolization to become vapor. But some oil droplets may be left over as the liquid cools back down, and inhaling those drops may cause breathing problems and lung inflammation.
This statement is not quite accurate. There are multiple processing methods to produce cartridge-ready concentrates with zero additives. It's true that many black market products are being diluted with such, but not true that THC must be mixed with additives to become inhalable.
Many vaping ingredients are not listed on the products. Vitamin E oil appears to have been a common substance associated with the severe and sudden respiratory problems in some of the New York cases, according to state health officials.
Now this is actually interesting - I've noticed that Vitamin E is being added to many of these botanical terpene blends as "mixed tocopherols" to increase shelf life as a result of oxidation.
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walkma666
Well-Known Member
Good details, thanks. I guess what concerns me as a fan of easy carts is that there is now a degree of uncertainty about the process to make them, and the content can vary between manufacturers. It seems that there is now a risk element that while rare is pretty serious, and it’s giving me pause to use until more data is in. Something has changed.
I’m done using all carts for now ... the DTv4 isn’t super discrete or handy when out and about ... nor is the Sai ... and the m22 I’m sure will be similar. Discretion and ease of use when out and about kinda goes out the window when you need to load for use and q-tip after use ... oh well ... bit of inconvenience for safety’s sake ... once I can get legal and pure cartridges with full transparency to the product and manufacturing process I’ll reconsider ...
Hackerman
User
Anyone who is vaping carts right now is just plain stupid. Fake carts are even showing up in dispensaries so even the ones that look real and come from a trusted source.... could still lead to death or permanent lung damage.
To vape carts after knowing that is nothing but what I said..... stupid.
This vitamin E oil and mineral oil and other long chains are doing PERMANENT damage. To me, that's just not worth the risk.
All this press got the ball rolling and they will be regulated very soon. Until then, rosin and flowers for me.
JMO
To vape carts after knowing that is nothing but what I said..... stupid.
This vitamin E oil and mineral oil and other long chains are doing PERMANENT damage. To me, that's just not worth the risk.
All this press got the ball rolling and they will be regulated very soon. Until then, rosin and flowers for me.
JMO
darbarikanada
Well-Known Member
just speculating here, but assuming this hasn't been going on unnoticed for a while there's some new factor behind these cases - maybe an additive. it sounds like the investigators have yet to identify a common denominator but it's hard to imagine they're not gathering data.
@invertedisdead is right; this is clearly incorrect - if this were the case, vaping flower wouldn't get people high. I suspect they meant oils and cartridges.
@invertedisdead is right; this is clearly incorrect - if this were the case, vaping flower wouldn't get people high. I suspect they meant oils and cartridges.
Alex3oe
Accessory Maker
I think the point here is to get the THC water-soluble. Otherwise you would not be able to get it in a vapeable dissolution on water-base. For this, THC has to be mixed with some chemical stuff as far as I know.
Hackerman
User
Nanotechnology seems to be a pretty cool way of making cannabis oil water soluble.
https://www.cannadish.net/making-thc-and-cbd-water-soluble/
Sonication, also. I tried an ultrasonic cleaner once and it didn't work.
https://www.cannadish.net/making-thc-and-cbd-water-soluble/
Sonication, also. I tried an ultrasonic cleaner once and it didn't work.
I wonder what's in NETA's new THC inhalers and whether they'll turn out to pose any health risk.
Deleted Member 1643
Well-Known Member
Been lurking.
Wouldn't there need to be legislation and implementing regulations, even for the limited government role @OldNewbie suggests?
Even so, FDA has had authority to regulate tobacco products since 2009, with the enactment of the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act. FDA's Center for Tobacco Products is awash in hundreds of millions of dollars in user fees as a result. How much safer are tobacco products now than they were a decade ago?
Agreed, MCTs should be avoided as a precaution, especially since lipid pneumonia has been diagnosed in a subset of cases. Mods, feel free to ABV the thread or post a warning. It was explicitly not intended to promote use of MCTs, and discussion of safety was solicited.
Not sold on terpenes, either. Sure, if you're adding back cannabis-derived terpenes at the concentrations originally present, you shouldn't be increasing your risk. Who would you trust to do that with money to be made deceptively in an unregulated market?
Sadly, there's room for more than one cause in this cluster of cases. Or it could be some as yet unknown interaction(s). Freely mixing lipids, glycols, flavorings, terpenes, etc., applying heat, and inhaling is as risky as it sounds, and it makes getting to the bottom of these cases all the more difficult.
Wouldn't there need to be legislation and implementing regulations, even for the limited government role @OldNewbie suggests?
Even so, FDA has had authority to regulate tobacco products since 2009, with the enactment of the Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act. FDA's Center for Tobacco Products is awash in hundreds of millions of dollars in user fees as a result. How much safer are tobacco products now than they were a decade ago?
Agreed, MCTs should be avoided as a precaution, especially since lipid pneumonia has been diagnosed in a subset of cases. Mods, feel free to ABV the thread or post a warning. It was explicitly not intended to promote use of MCTs, and discussion of safety was solicited.
Not sold on terpenes, either. Sure, if you're adding back cannabis-derived terpenes at the concentrations originally present, you shouldn't be increasing your risk. Who would you trust to do that with money to be made deceptively in an unregulated market?
Sadly, there's room for more than one cause in this cluster of cases. Or it could be some as yet unknown interaction(s). Freely mixing lipids, glycols, flavorings, terpenes, etc., applying heat, and inhaling is as risky as it sounds, and it makes getting to the bottom of these cases all the more difficult.
Truth Seeker
Well-Known Member
Were you combusting at the time of the lung collapse or vaping dry herb?
ginolicious
Well-Known Member
Combusting. And heavy cigarette smoker at that time. That’s before I joined this site in 2013. Haha.
IMO if discrete dosing is the main appeal, maybe we should just switch to tinctures. I'm considering it.
Truth Seeker
Well-Known Member
Glad to hear that you haven't had any problems since! Man that's scary stuff!
I've been trying to my good brother but I decarb'd some bud friday and tasted a tiny bit and woke up at 3 am heavily tripping.......lol. The psychoactive effects of delta 11 are so powerful it's something I don't really enjoy as much
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