Underdog Log Vapes

[BrianTL]

https://imgur.com/MwGDUYA

This is on 9.9 volts. One hit on the NonG. I get this every time no matter what I do. If I lower the temp it doesn't get as dark, but it still vapes unevenly.
EDIT: I don't know why the pic is that big. I tried to fix it can't figure it out.

Same thing with the GonG. 1 hit at 9.9 v.

https://imgur.com/gS8432w

Hmm, I see what you mean. That is not what my SS tips look like at all, they're basically perfectly evenly roasted brown.

What about draw speed? Is it possible you're pulling too hard/too fast and "tunneling" the hot air? I think thats a possibility with a straight tube bong, for sure.

 

[raindawgg]

Hmm, I see what you mean. That is not what my SS tips look like at all, they're basically perfectly evenly roasted brown.

What about draw speed? Is it possible you're pulling too hard/too fast and "tunneling" the hot air? I think thats a possibility with a straight tube bong, for sure.

No when I'm hitting it you can barely hear the water bubbling. I hit it very lightly.

Ya, this is definitely not what I was expecting. It's not as bad with the glass one because I can at least stir it, but the SS tips are basically impossible to stir.
How many good tasting hits do you usually get off the SS tips? I've noticed I can only usually get 1 good tasting hit then it tastes like popcorn.

 

[BrianTL]

No when I'm hitting it you can barely hear the water bubbling. I hit it very lightly.

Ya, this is definitely not what I was expecting. It's not as bad with the glass one because I can at least stir it, but the SS tips are basically impossible to stir.
How many good tasting hits do you usually get off the SS tips? I've noticed I can only usually get 1 good tasting hit then it tastes like popcorn.

2, maybe. 1st one is always great, 2nd one is just ok, 3rd, I either get nothing at all or a little popcorn. Typically I stop after 2 anyway as its extracted as far as I would like to go. Such small capacity 2 hits usually fully extracts for me anyway.

The only difference is mine is looking basically completely uniform with the color, specifically SS. The glass I get a little green around the edges but that doesn't surprise me... the SS I run at like 10.2-10.5 and a slow steady/strong draw. Glass ones I crank to the max.

I just have the standard SC3, not the + so I'm sure our numbers will differ, but idk, I feel like you should definitely be getting a more even extraction on the SS tips for sure. Maybe its hard to see from the pics though. Have you tried a direct draw stem?

 

[raindawgg]

2, maybe. 1st one is always great, 2nd one is just ok, 3rd, I either get nothing at all or a little popcorn. Typically I stop after 2 anyway as its extracted as far as I would like to go. Such small capacity 2 hits usually fully extracts for me anyway.

The only difference is mine is looking basically completely uniform with the color, specifically SS. The glass I get a little green around the edges but that doesn't surprise me... the SS I run at like 10.2-10.5 and a slow steady/strong draw. Glass ones I crank to the max.

I just have the standard SC3, not the + so I'm sure our numbers will differ, but idk, I feel like you should definitely be getting a more even extraction on the SS tips for sure. Maybe its hard to see from the pics though. Have you tried a direct draw stem?

No it's not just the pics, it's really uneven. Direct draw is the same.

 

[mysterion]

It sounds to me like your draw speed is too slow. I woud give it a rip like your used to, then if you get light avb.... turn up voltage and go again. Repeat until avb is how you like.

My first draw is thick an terpy. #2 is the same, but less terpy. 3 is a cleanup andd less dense/tasty.

Time to get out the notebook and make observations.... for science!

Edit: I notice my avb can get that way when I use a whip setup. Small amount of air being pulled through compared to wide open on the piece.

Also... I use an Alpha, bigger bowl, with 0.1 - 0.15g per load, I stir after hits as part of my routine.... I find it relaxing.

 

[arb]

No when I'm hitting it you can barely hear the water bubbling. I hit it very lightly.

Ya, this is definitely not what I was expecting. It's not as bad with the glass one because I can at least stir it, but the SS tips are basically impossible to stir.
How many good tasting hits do you usually get off the SS tips? I've noticed I can only usually get 1 good tasting hit then it tastes like popcorn.

It is a one hitter for sure.

 

[BrianTL]

Yeah maybe up the voltage and draw a little faster, see what happens? I've crushed a few SS tips as high as 11.8 or so and didn't char, but not all dogs run the same and we also have 2 different cores.

Edit: Now that I've had some more coffee and have been thinking about it, I actually run my SS no lower than 10.8, typically between 11.0 and 11.5. Earlier I said 10.2-10.5 but I realized I confused that with the bandit I've been dialing in. So, I'm at least a full volt higher than you, again different cores though.

This may be the ticket. There could simply just not be enough heat in the core to fully extract your load at 9.9. I would go up to 10.8/11.0 and see what happens with a bit of a faster inhale.

 

[vaporculture]

Did you try tamping lightly with your finger? If the herb is fluffy and not very dry, tunneling seems like a viable culprit.

I get one really tasty/complex hit from the stainless tips, but I keep the screen set fairly close so the load is small, and I'm trying to finish it.

 

[raindawgg]

Yeah maybe up the voltage and draw a little faster, see what happens? I've crushed a few SS tips as high as 11.8 or so and didn't char, but not all dogs run the same and we also have 2 different cores.

Edit: Now that I've had some more coffee and have been thinking about it, I actually run my SS no lower than 10.8, typically between 11.0 and 11.5. Earlier I said 10.2-10.5 but I realized I confused that with the bandit I've been dialing in. So, I'm at least a full volt higher than you, again different cores though.

This may be the ticket. There could simply just not be enough heat in the core to fully extract your load at 9.9. I would go up to 10.8/11.0 and see what happens with a bit of a faster inhale.

Just tried this, and 10.8 basically scorched it. Still only scorched in the middle though.
Taste like shit doing it that high, and this is the most flavorful bud I've had.

Did you try tamping lightly with your finger? If the herb is fluffy and not very dry, tunneling seems like a viable culprit.

I get one really tasty/complex hit from the stainless tips, but I keep the screen set fairly close so the load is small, and I'm trying to finish it.

The bud I have is relatively dry with decent stickiness, fine grind. I've tried tamping it down but it didn't really change it that much. When you start inhaling through it compresses the bud down a little bit anyways.

 

[vaporculture]

Fine grind might be a contributing factor -- I would try a slightly coarser grind and see if that helps. I use a medium plate on my 3 piece.

 

[arb]

Just tried this, and 10.8 basically scorched it. Still only scorched in the middle though.
Taste like shit doing it that high, and this is the most flavorful bud I've had.

The bud I have is relatively dry with decent stickiness, fine grind. I've tried tamping it down but it didn't really change it that much. When you start inhaling through it compresses the bud down a little bit anyways.

Moisture is what makes it sticky.

 

[mysterion]

Maybe reach out to Dave and see what he thinks?



For now.... Set the voltage where you had it before.... where you got that first nice hit:

Try a load that just covers the screen.

Try a load with the screen moved down
1cm.

Now up the voltage .2 and see what that does.

* I use medium grind on my BCG. I will get avb that looks like yours, when I use a fine grind, because the airflow is more restricted. Probably creating that tunnelling Brian mentioned. It could be this. Can you grind less fine?

I set my screen to the same spot after each cleaning. Once I found the voltage I liked... I went up / down and created a small range. (180-210c probably in extraction temp)

I adjust my voltage based on the ambient air temp. Mornings are 8 degrees colder on average in my room and need a bump of power from 0.25-0.5v.
I use the same draw speed, but less suction force on the bubbler. This is because the draw is nice and open vs my nano which is more restrictive. So that took some practice for me.

 

[raindawgg]

Moisture is what makes it sticky.

I'm gonna have to disagree on that one. Some bud isn't properly dried enough, and can be moist but not very sticky because they aren't very resinous. While some more resinous bud that is a little to dry can still be a bit sticky when you break it up.

 

[mysterion]

I'm gonna have to disagree on that one. Some bud isn't properly dried enough, and can be moist but not very sticky because they aren't very resinous. While some more resinous bud that is a little to dry can still be a bit sticky when you break it up.

True.... But I think the RH of your bud sitting in the jar determines how the vape interacts with it.... mainly the water that boils off before the terps. I find anything less then 55% makes my avb quite dark because the bud is too dry. Something at 58-60% usually gives a more rounded brown avb.... lasts longer before going realIy dark. I find the vapor smoother at 58% vs 50%. I always use a strain I know produces lots of vapor for testing. Try to keep my variables to just 1 per experiment!


But back to the dog....

Did any of those suggestions help?

 

[underdog]

https://imgur.com/MwGDUYA

This is on 9.9 volts. One hit on the NonG. I get this every time no matter what I do. If I lower the temp it doesn't get as dark, but it still vapes unevenly.
EDIT: I don't know why the pic is that big. I tried to fix it can't figure it out.

Same thing with the GonG. 1 hit at 9.9 v.

https://imgur.com/gS8432w

It's gotta be a technique or material issue as the vape core either works or doesn't and if it's scorching the material it clearly is.

All the stems will have a higher airflow thru the center and that's where the most heat will be so there will always be a degree of difference in how the material is vaped from center to side. Moving the vape around (turning it back and forth, etc) on the stem during a rip can help steer the heat towards the sides a bit but physics says the airflow will always try to return to center.

The NonG should be lightly loaded with an amount of material maybe 1/8" to 1/4" thick in the stem and the load should come right to the tip of the stainless. The picture makes it look like the material is down inside the tip a bit.. if so it's not 'supposed' to be that low in the stem. All that said the NonGs are meant as one-hitters and to extract one good rip and then be done.

The Glass in your pic also looks like the material is low in the stem. You want the material as close to the core as possible, like right up against the tip of the core but ideally with the core not 'buried' in the material. The glass stems and GonGs should be stirred for more even extraction across multiple hits if multiple hits are used. A lot of users (myself included) also use the glass stems / GonGs as bigger one-hitters and don't bother stirring.

It looks like your stems are dialed in weird and it sounds like you're drawing too slow (these aren't old generation Logs that need the 'milkshake draw'.. quite the opposite for the SC3+ and Alpha cores) but that's subjective and hard to say for sure. It also sounds like your temp might be a bit too high, at least for the draw speed.

 

[arb]

It's gotta be a technique or material issue as the vape core either works or doesn't and if it's scorching the material it clearly is.

All the stems will have a higher airflow thru the center and that's where the most heat will be so there will always be a degree of difference in how the material is vaped from center to side. Moving the vape around (turning it back and forth, etc) on the stem during a rip can help stir the heat towards the sides a bit but physics says the airflow will always try to return to center.

The NonG should be lightly loaded with an amount of material maybe 1/8" to 1/4" thick in the stem and the load should come right to the tip of the stainless. The picture makes it look like the material is down inside the tip a bit.. if so it's not 'supposed' to be that low in the stem. All that said the NonGs are meant as one-hitters and to extract one good rip and then be done.

The Glass in your pic also looks like the material is low in the stem. You want the material as close to the core as possible, like right up against the tip of the core but ideally with the core not 'buried' in the material. The glass stems and GonGs should be stirred for more even extraction across multiple hits if multiple hits are used. A lot of users (myself included) also use the glass stems / GonGs as bigger one-hitters and don't bother stirring.

It looks like your stems are dialed in weird and it sounds like you're drawing too slow (these aren't old generation Logs that need the 'milkshake draw'.. quite the opposite for the SC3+ and Alpha cores) but that's subjective and hard to say for sure. It also sounds like your temp might be a bit too high, at least for the draw speed.

So...........suck it like you mean it?

 

[raindawgg]

It's gotta be a technique or material issue as the vape core either works or doesn't and if it's scorching the material it clearly is.

All the stems will have a higher airflow thru the center and that's where the most heat will be so there will always be a degree of difference in how the material is vaped from center to side. Moving the vape around (turning it back and forth, etc) on the stem during a rip can help stir the heat towards the sides a bit but physics says the airflow will always try to return to center.

The NonG should be lightly loaded with an amount of material maybe 1/8" to 1/4" thick in the stem and the load should come right to the tip of the stainless. The picture makes it look like the material is down inside the tip a bit.. if so it's not 'supposed' to be that low in the stem. All that said the NonGs are meant as one-hitters and to extract one good rip and then be done.

The Glass in your pic also looks like the material is low in the stem. You want the material as close to the core as possible, like right up against the tip of the core but ideally with the core not 'buried' in the material. The glass stems and GonGs should be stirred for more even extraction across multiple hits if multiple hits are used. A lot of users (myself included) also use the glass stems / GonGs as bigger one-hitters and don't bother stirring.

It looks like your stems are dialed in weird and it sounds like you're drawing too slow (these aren't old generation Logs that need the 'milkshake draw'.. quite the opposite for the SC3+ and Alpha cores) but that's subjective and hard to say for sure. It also sounds like your temp might be a bit too high, at least for the draw speed.

Awesome, turning down the voltage a little bit, pulling harder, and getting the screen closer fixed the issue.
This NonG is ripping now. Will try the GonG in a little bit.

 

[fubar]

True.... But I think the RH of your bud sitting in the jar determines how the vape interacts with it.... mainly the water that boils off before the terps. I find anything less then 55% makes my avb quite dark because the bud is too dry. Something at 58-60% usually gives a more rounded brown avb.... lasts longer before going realIy dark. I find the vapor smoother at 58% vs 50%. I always use a strain I know produces lots of vapor for testing. Try to keep my variables to just 1 per experiment!


But back to the dog....

Did any of those suggestions help?

I'd recommend reading up on the 'latent heat of vaporisation' of water if this is something you are curious about.

Moist bud cannot get past 100c until all the water has left, because, well, physics. Yes, sea level and all that aside.

It's as if any water molecules will grab all the incoming heat and evaporate, taking it away like any other evaporative cooler, so the load stays 'cool' - until it is all gone.
Any residual moisture in the load is all gone pretty quickly once you start hitting it.
I get it that folks like to fiddle with moisture levels but physics makes their explanations seem odd

In particular, I can't imagine how browning speed or depth can be influenced other than the few seconds extra time to heat up - browning (IMHO) at fixed temperature and air flow varies with carbohydrate and protein content because it is the Maillard reaction. (That is until charring sets in and it's black!)

OTOH, biology and chemical reactions often go faster with water. Moist bud in a jar will change pretty fast - bacteria, moulds and oxidation are all encouraged by moisture. Pretty much bone dry (eg <10% water) bud stays relatively constant by comparison - so could any of the things you observe be related to storage rather than the physics of the first few seconds of a hit?

 

[Commander Cody]

A couple comments on getting optimum results using the NONG with small stainless steel tube that heats inside the core
Material needs to have a consistent grind. If your ground material has powder, flakes, small hard pieces all in the same load....it will not vape evenly. If the loaded screen is not filled evenly the low spots will allow more air and heat to come through...it will not vape evenly. The air you pull through will take the path of least resistance. It is a good idea after lightly tamping to hold the NONG up to the light and look through it from the nylon end. Sometimes you can see a surprising amount of light coming through holes or tunnels. Suck up little more material to plug the holes or use your pokin’ tool to rearrange. Air will come through those holes....and you’re not going to vape evenly. Start with a consistent medium grind, evenly leveled, and lightly tamped. then keep it that way so it is a controlled variable.
Screen placement. Underdog recommends the basket be placed in the stainless tube so the material is at the very end. This is one way to insure consistency. I have an older NONG where the stainless section is two pieces. One part is crimped with a small tip over the top. The screen can only be pushed in until it cones for rest against the inner piece. This is where I always put my screen. This gives me a consistent distance from the heat source. Decide where you want your screen and then keep it that way so it is a controlled variable.
As far as draw speed....what’s comfortable for you? Hit it that way for now and eliminate that variable
Temperature.....Here’s the variable to work with! Pick a temp you think might work. Take a hit. If it is still green, temp is too low. Put in a new load (we want to control that variable) and turn it up some. Repeat until you find your ”sweet spot” where you cash the load in one hit and have nicely browned ABV.
Hope this might help someone!

 

[mysterion]

I'd recommend reading up on the 'latent heat of vaporisation' of water if this is something you are curious about.

Moist bud cannot get past 100c until all the water has left, because, well, physics. Yes, sea level and all that aside.

It's as if any water molecules will grab all the incoming heat and evaporate, taking it away like any other evaporative cooler, so the load stays 'cool' - until it is all gone.
Any residual moisture in the load is all gone pretty quickly once you start hitting it.
I get it that folks like to fiddle with moisture levels but physics makes their explanations seem odd

In particular, I can't imagine how browning speed or depth can be influenced other than the few seconds extra time to heat up - browning (IMHO) at fixed temperature and air flow varies with carbohydrate and protein content because it is the Maillard reaction. (That is until charring sets in and it's black!)

OTOH, biology and chemical reactions often go faster with water. Moist bud in a jar will change pretty fast - bacteria, moulds and oxidation are all encouraged by moisture. Pretty much bone dry (eg <10% water) bud stays relatively constant by comparison - so could any of the things you observe be related to storage rather than the physics of the first few seconds of a hit?

I shall have a look!

I like to understand all variables to troubleshoot. I don’t have the knowledge to speak to what you’re talking about, but I have a lot of hands on experience with vaporizers, lots with log vapes.

For me... YMMV

The storage of the bud comes into play for sure. Dry stuff has a lot of goodies fall off in the grinder. It’s perfect when fluffy, tacky, and the grinder is clean with nothing left behind. The grind, the fluffyness, how it’s loaded, how it’s tamped or not, temp of the room, draw speed, restriction of water tool, lots of variables.

I don’t think the mallard reaction accounts for all the variables. So I feel like there are differences in vapor production and even AVB....based on storage conditions. If you allow those natural processes to happen in the jar, keeping RH at 58-62%, the vapor is more flavourful / plentiful / smooth. Grind is also more consistent.

But again... I am leaning and only have obervations!

 

[raindawgg]

A couple comments on getting optimum results using the NONG with small stainless steel tube that heats inside the core
Material needs to have a consistent grind. If your ground material has powder, flakes, small hard pieces all in the same load....it will not vape evenly. If the loaded screen is not filled evenly the low spots will allow more air and heat to come through...it will not vape evenly. The air you pull through will take the path of least resistance. It is a good idea after lightly tamping to hold the NONG up to the light and look through it from the nylon end. Sometimes you can see a surprising amount of light coming through holes or tunnels. Suck up little more material to plug the holes or use your pokin’ tool to rearrange. Air will come through those holes....and you’re not going to vape evenly. Start with a consistent medium grind, evenly leveled, and lightly tamped. then keep it that way so it is a controlled variable.
Screen placement. Underdog recommends the basket be placed in the stainless tube so the material is at the very end. This is one way to insure consistency. I have an older NONG where the stainless section is two pieces. One part is crimped with a small tip over the top. The screen can only be pushed in until it cones for rest against the inner piece. This is where I always put my screen. This gives me a consistent distance from the heat source. Decide where you want your screen and then keep it that way so it is a controlled variable.
As far as draw speed....what’s comfortable for you? Hit it that way for now and eliminate that variable
Temperature.....Here’s the variable to work with! Pick a temp you think might work. Take a hit. If it is still green, temp is too low. Put in a new load (we want to control that variable) and turn it up some. Repeat until you find your ”sweet spot” where you cash the load in one hit and have nicely browned ABV.
Hope this might help someone!

How brown do you usually get your avb? Mine right now is more of a light brown almost tan. Seems to get good flavor that way.

 

[arb]

How brown do you usually get your avb? Mine right now is more of a light brown almost tan. Seems to get good flavor that way.

Mine is tan also never black at all.

 

[fubar]

It's surely a matter of personal preference?

The browning of bud is exactly like the browning of cooking.
Same chemistry. The Maillard reaction between protein and carbs.
Your bread with more sugar toasts darker faster.
For any given bread, it goes darker when toasted at higher temperature or for longer at the same temperature.

Seems to me that for any given type of weed and stem combination, by the time I'm done, it's darker if the dog is putting out more heat (on a higher voltage) or the load is moved closer to the heater.

I'm at 10.2v right now and have what I like in terms of even, dark brown.
At 9.5 mine doesn't go much beyond a light tan and beyond 10.8 it gets very dark and tastes like popcorn before it's done.
Same outcome as if screen was moved slightly closer or further from the heater.

Good to have all the options.

Mine right now is more of a light brown almost tan

 

[mysterion]

How brown do you usually get your avb? Mine right now is more of a light brown almost tan. Seems to get good flavor that way.

It's surely a matter of personal preference?

The browning of bud is exactly like the browning of cooking. Same chemistry. The Maillard reaction between protein and carbs.
You can bake your bread so it goes darker with more sugar in the dough; or higher temperature; or longer at the same temperature.

Seems to me that for any given type of weed and stem combination, by the time I'm done, it's darker if the dog is putting out more heat (on a higher voltage) or the load is moved closer to the heater.

I'm at 10.2v right now and have what I like in terms of even, dark brown.
At 9.5 mine doesn't go much beyond a light tan and beyond 10.8 it gets very dark and tastes like popcorn before it's done.
Same outcome as if screen was moved slightly closer or further from the heater.

Mine is tan also never black at all.

I follow this handy guide:

 

[despeRAWdo]

I'm trying to wait patiently, but any idea on when the next batch of Alphas are going to drop?