Sounds like a plan. The Xtrar charger is a good one. However, I would only charge at 2 amp mode if time is an issue. 1 amp charge is a good trade off for battery life cycles. Charging at 1/2 amp is pampering the cells.
Discontinued Thermovape Cera
- Thread starter SameOldTim
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Sounds like a plan. The Xtrar charger is a good one. However, I would only charge at 2 amp mode if time is an issue. 1 amp charge is a good trade off for battery life cycles. Charging at 1/2 amp is pampering the cells.
Hey again all,
Now I think I finally found out what carts and such to get. I am however still in a bit of doubt concerning the whole battery and charger issue. I want to order the cera without charger and batteries (though I wanna support TET) to get he best chances of actually getting it through customs.The question is am I going to be able to achieve the same performance with non TET products?
I've been looking at the site herbalist linked me too and I've sort of convinced myself that the following setup would work;
The Xtar sp2 charger - 500, 1000 and 2000 mAh options at 0,5A, 1A or 2A.
And for the batteries either Panasonic CGR 18650 CH 2250mAh 3,6V or Panasonic NCR18650PD – 2900mAh, 3,7V.
What do you guys say to this?
And BlazinOG I gotta ask, what's the music (2 tracks? ) from your "loading a .07" video?
Vaporiffic
Sounds like a plan. The Xtrar charger is a good one. However, I would only charge at 2 amp mode if time is an issue. 1 amp charge is a good trade off for battery life cycles. Charging at 1/2 amp is pampering the cells.
Hey Vaporiffic,
I agree wholeheartedly with Pipes. I have the SP2 (i already owned it so TV's charger, as good as it is, was unecessary) and it's the only charger that I've used with CERA's CGR 18650 2250mah batts (I don't have any of the 2900mah batts). And I charge them just like Pipes suggests.... Do yourself a favor and get enough batts for easy rotation so you don't have to throw them on the charger at 2A. I like to 'baby' them at 0.5A myself.
BTW, hope your CERA makes it to the 'Land of Christiana' safely. Just wondering....has 'Christiana' been reborn?
NN
nopartofme
Over the falls, in a barrel
I'd always wanted to make a video for this thread, ever since back in the beta days when everyone was clamoring for more information. We're six months out from that, but last weekend I finally sat down and wrote up an outline for a video overview and demonstration. Got it filmed across two days and spent more time than all that trying to get my computer to export a version YouTube wouldn't mess up.
This is my first time tackling a video project of this scale, and I had a lot of fun. I've got extra footage that I'll probably edit into one or two more videos as well, but they'll be shorter. I gota little carried away with the production; I hope you all enjoy. Without further ado, I humbly present my video homage to Cera. Viewing in HD is usage as designed.
Music credits:
Journey of the Sorcerer & The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - Joby Talbot
Jungle Level Ver. 2 - Motoi Sakuraba
The Yellow Windows of the Evening Train - Porcupine Tree
No Worry Birdie (Instrumental) - The Grammar Club
This is my first time tackling a video project of this scale, and I had a lot of fun. I've got extra footage that I'll probably edit into one or two more videos as well, but they'll be shorter. I got
Music credits:
Journey of the Sorcerer & The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy - Joby Talbot
Jungle Level Ver. 2 - Motoi Sakuraba
The Yellow Windows of the Evening Train - Porcupine Tree
No Worry Birdie (Instrumental) - The Grammar Club
OF
Well-Known Member
Those are the exact batteries you'd be getting from TV. The first is my recommendation, much as the numbers indicate the other way around. In the real use in Cera it has a slight heat/time advantage early on and basically the same number of useful minutes per charge. I'd also suggest at least two (more would be better as they're becoming obsolete and the replacement doesn't do as well for us). IMO it's very important to have a freshly charged battery to substitute at the first sign of changing performance. If the fresh battery doesn't restore vapor (or whatever the issue was) you can put the original back but the alternative often involves risky stuff like adding more concentrate as a guess. Not a good plan.
Once again, the Brother from the Frozen North is spot on. Good unit, but hold off on the 2 Amp charges. We beat the batteries up bad enough in use, no sense doing it more in the charger. A good rule of thumb is to shoot for one to two hours (and error on the long side).
Ironically lower charge rates typically lead to slightly lower total charge. As I understand it TV went with the one Amp rate unit they did becasue they found a slight but useful advantage (varied between 5 and 10% IIRC) over the half Amp units like they had been using for the original line in their testing.
You solution sounds very good to me, IMO the best one could ask for?
OF
Dreamerr
Always in a state of confusion and silliness♀
Just a thought not knowing anything about batteries. OF if you charge at .5 amps and then top off at the higher 1 amp when done wouldn't that work and in that way you would get the full charge?
Wow I think I used the correct terms. Maybe an old dog can learn new tricks.
Wow I think I used the correct terms. Maybe an old dog can learn new tricks.
I'd always wanted to make a video for this thread, ever since back in the beta days when everyone was clamoring for more information. We're six months out from that, but last weekend I finally sat down and wrote up an outline for a video overview and demonstration. Got it filmed across two days and spent more time than all that trying to get my computer to export a version YouTube wouldn't mess up.
This is my first time tackling a video project of this scale, and I had a lot of fun. I've got extra footage that I'll probably edit into one or two more videos as well, but they'll be shorter. I gota littlecarried away with the production; I hope you all enjoy. Without further ado, I humbly present my video homage to Cera. Viewing in HD is usage as designed.
That is awesome, Great Job NoPart!!!
green2brown
Well-Known Member
Vaporiffic
Member
Sounds like a plan. The Xtrar charger is a good one. However, I would only charge at 2 amp mode if time is an issue. 1 amp charge is a good trade off for battery life cycles. Charging at 1/2 amp is pampering the cells.
Thank you and thank you for the tip
Sounds good, thanks for the input
Well I don't know if I would call it reborn as it never really "died". True the cannabis business took a hit from the government for a while, but it never stopped, and is now going strong again, besides the cannabis it such a small part of Christiania anyways. Let me know if you want a guided tour sometime
And awesome video bro, exactly what youtube needed, a user made cera review, good job
OF[/quote]
Thank you for that aswell OF. Do I choose the 1000 mAh option for either 0.5A or 1A?
I'm loving this forum
Vaporiffic
OF
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I'd say that's a good guideline, but that's all it can be I think. The issue is it's several sessions. And each session involves some 'distortion' shall we say? Get several sessions since you know you last changed battery (but now sure exactly how many or how long each was.....) and at best you're only guessing.
Sometimes you can get a routine that works. With Iolite I tend to load 50mg or a little more bubble hash with 1/8 gram of ground bud. I get two sessions from each load (I shut the first down when I feel I've had enough, the second when it thins out too much). A full load of gas (I weigh it, 3 grams) does two loads, four sessions with typically just under half a gram of gas left (not enough for another session). There I can fill the gas tank, load the bowl and put a second load of ground bud in a vial in the case for the reload and am good to go.
Unfortunately, after using Cera a fair bit, I found it was near impossible to keep track or figure out from performance how near the end of charge you are. This is similar to what I found with Revolution/DART. The best advice is, I think, to 'question the battery charge' at the first sign of trouble. The best way I see to test for that is with a 'known good' battery (it doesn't really have to be a top line unit, just one you can depend on to give good heat).
I like to swap in a fresh battery and test that first if there's any question at all. Adding more oil to a cart struggling with a weak battery will only make it worse. Even after you wise up and change the battery you still have an overfill problem that way.
Good question, I've never tried it. I'm not sure how you'd remember to change rates at the right time. Putting a fully charged battery back in the charger is not a good idea, it can goof up the end of charge detection sometimes. The best advice is, I think, charge at a one to two hour rate (or a bit longer if needed) and remove it from the charger fairly soon after it's complete. Occasionally leaving it in overnight is no problem, but overall not a good practice. Add to that 'don't top up fully charged batteries' and use 'half charged' (or so) for long term storage (and fully charge before putting them into service).
OF
JoeKickass
Well-Known Member
I like this version of the xtar: http://www.eliteflashlights.com/xta...urce=googlebase&m1track=googlebase#googlebase
The xtar wp2 II still has the 0.5a and 1a charge modes but instead of the 2a mode, it has an option to use a lithium battery to power a USB port (great for camping!)
The xtar wp2 II still has the 0.5a and 1a charge modes but instead of the 2a mode, it has an option to use a lithium battery to power a USB port (great for camping!)
Vaporiffic
Member
Now I just wanna be sure I get this right. Now I am going to be purchasing spare batteries because as you say they are becoming obsolete and I want something to change around with. Now lets say I buy more batteries than I'm using in my day to day cycle, to have replacements when they eventually wear out. These would then be best stored empty until use?
Well that is a possibility too for sure, just checked and they do have it at the German seller and cheaper than the sp2. I do however like that nopartofme is "vouching" for the sp. Do you have any experience with the wp2?
Vaporiffic
Mod note: When possible, please avoid making back-to-back posts in a thread. Use the Edit feature located at the bottom of your posts. Posts merged.
That USB Xtar is the version I own. Never used the USB option but just having the 2 amp option in case you need it seems like a better bet. Also, the USB version had problems with the + contact and flat top batteries. I used a little hex screw to give the + contact some extra length. Never heard of this problem with the newer version.?
Vaporiffic
Member
That USB Xtar is the version I own. Never used the USB option but just having the 2 amp option in case you need it seems like a better bet. Also, the USB version had problems with the + contact and flat top batteries. I used a little hex screw to give the + contact some extra length. Never heard of this problem with the newer version.?
I see, thank you for that
I think I'm leaning towards the sp2 myself, I do like that USB option though - but then again what could possibly be important enough to actually use ceras power for anything other than vaping
Thank you for the different inputs
Vaporiffic
That USB Xtar is the version I own. Never used the USB option but just having the 2 amp option in case you need it seems like a better bet. Also, the USB version had problems with the + contact and flat top batteries. I used a little hex screw to give the + contact some extra length. Never heard of this problem with the newer version.?
Hey Pipes and Vaporiffic:
Pipes is right. The SP2's + contact protrudes out further allowing for proper fit with flat top batts. Something else you might want to consider is the fact that the SP2 has the capability to charge 22650, 25500 and 26650 batts. With the rapid advances in battery performance and the devices that we use to medicate, this extra option may prove attractive in the future. Good luck.
NN
No. Li-ion batteries should be stored partially charged. The usual recommendation is 40% in a cool dry place. If you store them depleted then self-discharge could trigger the sleep protection circuit. You need a charger with a "boost" setting to activate sleeping batteries. If they have been asleep for more than a week or so you should not try to awaken them. Internal changes could cause overheating or worse.
Vaporiffic
Member
Thank you,
Now I must admit I don't understand the whole sleep function, boost charger issue completely. As long as I stick to the 40% charged in a cool dark place I'm good? And will I need to take them out once in a while and make sure that they are still around 40% charged?
Vaporiffic
When you're right you're right
you never have to wait long for a good answer here.Thank you for the kind words and all your help so far ( and everyone else's ) it is appreciated
Vaporiffic
Mod note: When possible, please avoid making back-to-back posts in a thread. Use the Edit feature located at the bottom of your posts. Posts merged.
Haywood
Onward Thru the Fog
I agree with your observations. Just fyi, I usually charge my 2250mAh cells at 1.5A, and they stay at room temp the whole time. The few times I charged them at 2.0A they also stayed at room temp, but there wasn't quite a linear reduction in charge time. Charging at 2.0A only bought me a 10%-20% faster recharge time than charging them at 1.5A. So it's hardly worth using 2.0A, and more importantly, Panasonic recommends 1.5A for rapid charging the 2250 cell.
This paragraph pretty much depends on the design of the charger, and this is only applicable to Lithium cells, not to NiMH or NiCad. Typically, the charge cycle starts out with whatever value of constant current you have set going into the cell, until the voltage reaches 4.2V. At that point the voltage is held constant (at 4.2V) and the current decreases until it reaches 10% of the initial current, at which point the charger shuts off. If your charger is set to 1.5A, that means that when the current decreases to 150mA, the charger shuts off. If your charger is set to 0.5A, it won't shut down until it gets to 50mA. I would think therefor that charging at a slower initial rate would give more capacity to a battery than charging at a faster rate, but I believe in practical testing more than theory, as (apparently) so does TET. Perhaps the charger they were testing had the same end of charge current programming for its half amp rate as it did for its amp rate, and the charge ended at the same current in both cases. (?)
You can charge your batteries at either rate, and they'll be fine, and full. I would use the 1A rate, myself, but either will work fine, though one will take twice as long. Even at 1A, you're charging the 2250 cell at well under .5C, which is the recommended rate for normal (not fast) charging. If you're using the 2900mAh cells, a 1A charge rate is .3C, which is also fine, but will take close to three hours to recharge a mostly dead battery.
All good advice. Note that all properly designed Lithium chargers won't hurt a battery if it's fully charged when inserted, nor will they overcharge (or discharge) a battery left in the charger for a long period of time. I can't speak for any specific charger, except for the ones I use, so your advice is still good, and it can't hurt be doubly safe. End of charge mis-detection is something that happened with NiMH and NiCad chargers when they were set to a very low charge current, but it's really not a factor with Lithium chargers.
You want to long term store Lithium batteries at half charge. Not at full charge, not at almost discharged. Completely discharging (emptying) a Lithium cell is the fastest way to ruin it. (Well, maybe not as fast as shorting it out and watching it vent and explode, but close). You absolutely do NOT want to discharge your cells before storing them. It's not as bad to store them at full charge, but the absolute best way, which is recommended by every Lithium battery manufacturer, is to store them at half charge.
So how do you figure what half charge is? If you have a voltmeter, you want them to read ~3.6V open circuit (without any load on them). So use a battery in your Cera for a bit, pop it out of the Cera, let it sit for a few minutes, and take a voltage reading. If it's above 3.6V, put it back in the Cera, have another hit or two, take it out, check the voltage again. You get the idea. If you have no voltmeter, then get a good idea how long your battery lasts in your Cera before it needs recharging, then charge the battery up all the way, and use it in your Cera for half its normal run time. Then store it. Also, if you have a voltmeter, you may find that the batteries you receive will already be at half charge from the factory, and you don't have to do anything but store them as is. Without a voltmeter I wouldn't depend on this though, because some places charge the batteries before they send them to you, as a favor, so you don't have to waste an hour pacing around admiring your brand new Cera, while your batteries charge.
All true, and good advice. Both the 2250 and 2900 cells we're talking about don't have protection circuits though, so that part's good general advice, but not specific to the Cera recommended batteries. (Plus leaving Lithium cells mostly discharged is a terrible idea, even without protective circuit boards).
Do I win the award for most quoted posts in a single post?
Vaporiffic
Member
Thank you, I Think that made it clear
Now I do have one little question left, I do charge at the 1000 mAh setting wether its .5 or 1A right?
Vaporiffic
Haywood
Onward Thru the Fog
Thank you, I Think that made it clear
Now I do have one little question left, I do charge at the 1000 mAh setting wether its .5 or 1A right?
Vaporiffic
Well, a little question deserves a little answer.
Maybe not so little.
(I meant to mention mA vs. mAh in my previous message, but it got lost in all the copying and pasting).
Your question confuses me, so I'll just explain what I think is confusing you.
Amps are a measurement of current. As are milliamps. There are 1000 milliamps in 1 Amp. So if one person says "500mA" and another says "0.5A", they're both saying exactly the same thing. Similar to one person saying "50 cents" and another saying "half a dollar". (Only in that example there are 100 cents in a dollar, and in milliamps there are 1000 milliamps in an Amp).
mAh is a different thing. mA tells you how much current is (or can be) flowing. mAh tells you for how long it can be flowing.
When we are talking about, for example, a Cera core, TET might tell us that for proper operation, a battery must be able to supply 4 or 5 Amps of current. If the battery can't supply that much current, it won't be able to heat up the Cera core, and it won't work. If we happen to have a battery that is capable of supplying, say, 10 Amps, that's OK, because the Cera will only draw what it needs (in this case ~4A), and the battery can supply more than it needs. The battery that can supply 10A won't hurt the Cera core, because the battery only supplies as much current as the core wants. If the battery could supply 100 Amps, that would be OK too, as the Cera will still only draw what it needs, about 4A.
That said, we still don't know how long the battery can supply the 4A. Here's where the "h" part of mAh comes in. The mA part stands for milliamps, as we've been discussing. The "h" part stands for hours. So if a battery is rated at 2250mAh, it means that it can supply 2250mA for one hour before going dead. Or 1125mA for two hours. Or 4500mA for a half hour. Since our Cera core wants to draw between 4000mA and 5000mA (4 or 5 Amps), we can figure our 2250mAh batteries will work for about a half hour before needing to be recharged.
(This is not strictly true because the mAh rating for a battery is slightly different depending on how much current is being drawn. Our 2250 batteries, for example, are rated at 2250mAh when the current draw is 430mA. When the current draw is around 4000mA [4A], their mAh rating is more like 1950mAh.)
Hope that explains the different between Amperes and Ampere-Hours.
Now, with regard to chargers and charging. I am presuming your charger has a switch that allows you to select how much current (Amps) it will supply. Unlike the example above, where we "let" the core draw as much as it wants from the battery, and we use a battery that can supply as much current (or more) than the core wants, in the charging state, things are different. If we used a charger that would supply as much current as the battery wanted, the discharged battery would try to draw a few hundred amps from the charger, and if the charger obligingly supplied that kind of current, the battery would overheat and explode in less than a minute. kaboom. So when we charge a battery, we have to limit the amount of current the charger will supply to the battery.
We decide the maximum charging current to be supplied by following the manufacturers recommendations. In the case of our 2250 cells, Panasonic recommends the fast charge current to be 1.5A, so we want to make sure we set our charger to supply that much or less. The maximum allowable charge current specified by Panasonic for this cell is 2.15A. Within reason, you can always supply a smaller charge current, with the only drawback being the time it takes to recharge the battery. For example, charging our 2250mAh batteries at 1A should take about two and a half hours if the battery is really dead. Since we NEVER discharge our batteries all the way to dead, in the real world, charging at 1A takes about 2 hours. If we set our charger to supply 0.5A (500mA), then it will take twice as long, or about 4 hours. If we charge them at 2A, it will take only about 1 hour to charge them, but although it's perfectly safe, once we start charging them at above the recommended 1.5A, we are trading off the number of times they can be charged and discharged before they give up the ghost and have to be thrown away (recycled). As long as we don't go above the maximum charge rate (2.15A), we won't be doing anything dangerous. So if you have a charger that can charge at 2A, you can feel fine to charge at that rate every once in a while when you just don't have the time to wait, and you'll probably only give up 5% of the number of cycles you could get if you only charged them at 1A. If you charged them every time at 2A, you'd probably give up 40% of the charge discharge cycles. No danger, nothing being done wrong, you just get your batteries charged in half the time, and have to replace them (almost) twice as frequently.
Whew.
So to answer your question, you can't charge at the 1000mAh setting; there isn't one. You can charge at 1000mA setting (or the 500mA setting, if you like), or even at the 2000mA setting, if you're in a hurry, or don't care about having to replace your batteries more frequently. Oh, and just so you know, secondary (rechargeable) Lithium cells have a shelf life of about 3 years.
YeeeBuddy
Well-Known Member
Simce we are on the topic what are the signs that I might need new batteries. I ask because it seems like my 2900 is performing better than my 2250's in warmup time for ll. could it be because my 2900 has barely had any use compared to the 2250s? I don't abuse them at all the I swap a fresh battery after every ll bowl. The 2250's still work great just don't seem to heat up as fast as before, are they just getting old? Cera is my main vape so they have definitely had a lot of use.
Dreamerr
Always in a state of confusion and silliness♀
I thought I was starting to learn and now all I see again is colors but I guess not
. I am still trying but I couldn't even read the posts in full cause I think my brain fell on the floor and rolled away...ok it ran fast and I can't catch it.
. Where are we what are we doing here
Now on another silly note. I am not sure why but every time I open my email and I see ThermoCoreTim all I can picture is various characters in the wizard of oz....
. I am still trying but I couldn't even read the posts in full cause I think my brain fell on the floor and rolled away...ok it ran fast and I can't catch it.. Where are we what are we doing hereNow on another silly note. I am not sure why but every time I open my email and I see ThermoCoreTim all I can picture is various characters in the wizard of oz....
I thought I was starting to learn and now all I see again is colors but I guess not
Now on another silly note. I am not sure why but every time I open my email and I see ThermoCoreTim all I can picture is various characters in the wizard of oz....
Wheres Toto?????
Haywood
Onward Thru the Fog
How many times have you recharged them? The Panasonic spec sheets show a 10% capacity drop after 300 charge/dischage cycles, but their tests aren't as severe as ours (they only discharge at 1.5A, we discharge at 4.5A). Have you tried cleaning the top and bottom contacts of the batteries on a slightly moistened with iso paper towel? Deep discharging them really takes its toll, but you indicate that you swap them out after two bowls, which I assume means they still have enough power left to maybe do another half bowl or full bowl when you remove them from the Cera. Note that discharging the battery to "nothing" by holding down the button and trying vainly to get one-more-hit, can wipe out a battery's ability to supply high current after only a few times. fwiw.
YeeeBuddy
Well-Known Member
Just a estimate maybe 100-150 times. I actually put a fresh battery after every ll bowl, I know this isn't necessary but I have plenty to rotate so I figure why discharge them more than I have to. They still work well maybe these are just the first signs of them going south. I"m tempted to charge up a brand new 2250 and see if I notice a difference from the used ones. What I am going off is how fast the core starts glowing/ gets to full brilliance.