The Toad from Morwood
- Thread starter Dan Morrison
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namasteIII
Well-Known Member
Would larger ID increase the chance and severity of center hotspoting? My guess is yes unless the heater gets an equal size increase.
gordontreeman
Everythings coming up Milhouse!
Larger Id stems might be cool. I’m team “wide open airflow” these days after experiencing it on another vape through a hook. Another advantage is that in my unscientific testing a thinner, wider load vapes more evenly than the same load in a thicker cylinder.
I think @namasteIII raises the same concern I’d have though. If the heater size doesn’t increase I’d think the last point would be moot and you’d hotspot/char under the heater unless you do some fluid dynamics magic to get the hot air homogeneous after it flows through the heater.
I think @namasteIII raises the same concern I’d have though. If the heater size doesn’t increase I’d think the last point would be moot and you’d hotspot/char under the heater unless you do some fluid dynamics magic to get the hot air homogeneous after it flows through the heater.
I like the current diameter of the herb chamber and actually prefer it over the larger TM stems
passenger
is this thing on?
@Dan Morrison Thanks for the insights, a lot of good stuff to read - and I find your washi hash paper method to be an unique and clever method. I still try to fully understand the procedure and if possible I'd really like to see how you do it. If using something sticky, you would warm it a little and smear it between two layers of washi?
checkyourlibido
Well-Known Member
21700 lasts longer and is only marginally differently sized. I'd 100% be in on that.I think 11mm ID stems work for me, but larger would be good too.
Maybe 14mm with 21700 (or whatever the best out there is now) batteries since I assume it would require a little size increase?
Excited about modular stems, capsules and hash paper! We barely touched on the last topic in the Convection thread several months ago, but it sounds like you’ve been working on it! I didn’t even realize what you meant by hash paper at the time…
I’d have to think about potential improvements on the ideas you talked about, but they already sound good!
fangorn
Well-Known Member
the 21700 tempts me well too! But come to think of it... I won't really have any use for it...
if I leave home with my toad and my battery is fully charged.. I have 4 possible sessions.
if it's more than a day, I take batteries.
At home, I have no qualms about changing my batteries regularly... my charger isn't very far...
with a 21700, I will take the same arrangement in terms of the number of batteries in my bag, if I go out for a day, an evening or a weekend...
So, in my reasoning, I just lose on the "miniaturization"...
however, having a toad in his hands... it's just amazing the work that Dan has done to reduce the size to a minimum...
when I can I will post a photo with the toad, and what it contains (stem, battery, heater, button)...
it impresses me so much! he reduced the thicknesses to the maximum.
in short, just a few more or less related ideas... certainly poorly formulated
Hmm... perhaps some sort of middle ground, 12-13mm internal diameter. And yes, the heater would need to be sized accordingly to match.
@gordontreeman, For convection, I also think a chamber that is shallower than it is wide is the key. I don't care how you apply the heat, if you're not stirring, the herb closest to the heater will always get slightly more toasted than the herb furthest away from the heater. This effect can be minimized by lengthening the time you're taking to finish a chamber... my theory being that this extra time allows the heat to penetrate/saturate the entire chamber. But I tend to like a one or two hit session in the Toad, so I prefer a shallow chamber.
With the glass capsules I am thinking about, you could flip the capsule half way through a session to hit the opposite end with the heat, so that could further minimize the need for a shallow chamber... but I would likely be too lazy to flip the capsule, so... not sure how I feel about that!
@passenger I have been trying to find time to photograph the process of making hash paper, but time is scarce these days, hopefully soon! Essentially, it involves putting a sheet of parchment paper on the table, then a small square of washi paper, then a flattened ball of hash ontop of the washi paper. I put one more square of washi ontop of the hash, followed by another sheet of parchment. A glass bottle filled with hot water is used to flatten the hash between the paper layers, rolling it out like pizza dough. After each rolling, I remove the top layer of washi (which is now saturated with hash) and replace it with a fresh washi square. I repeat the rolling until no more rosin can be pressed from the hash. You'll end up with a few sheets of saturated washi, and one sheet of washi covered in the plant matter that was in the hash. Everything pulls cleanly off the parchment. I put the washi in the freeze for a few minutes. This gets rid of any stickyness so that I can cut the saturated washi into very thin ribbons with scissors. The thin ribbons are stored in the freezer. I found that because the surface area is so large, the hash will lose some terpenes after a week or so if stored at room temp. Storing in the freezer seems to make it last for at least a month.
@fangorn I'm with you here. I prefer the 18650 for maximum compactness. I can increase the chamber size and heater size slightly without changing the outside dimensions at all.... so no need for making anything larger.
@gordontreeman, For convection, I also think a chamber that is shallower than it is wide is the key. I don't care how you apply the heat, if you're not stirring, the herb closest to the heater will always get slightly more toasted than the herb furthest away from the heater. This effect can be minimized by lengthening the time you're taking to finish a chamber... my theory being that this extra time allows the heat to penetrate/saturate the entire chamber. But I tend to like a one or two hit session in the Toad, so I prefer a shallow chamber.
With the glass capsules I am thinking about, you could flip the capsule half way through a session to hit the opposite end with the heat, so that could further minimize the need for a shallow chamber... but I would likely be too lazy to flip the capsule, so... not sure how I feel about that!
@passenger I have been trying to find time to photograph the process of making hash paper, but time is scarce these days, hopefully soon! Essentially, it involves putting a sheet of parchment paper on the table, then a small square of washi paper, then a flattened ball of hash ontop of the washi paper. I put one more square of washi ontop of the hash, followed by another sheet of parchment. A glass bottle filled with hot water is used to flatten the hash between the paper layers, rolling it out like pizza dough. After each rolling, I remove the top layer of washi (which is now saturated with hash) and replace it with a fresh washi square. I repeat the rolling until no more rosin can be pressed from the hash. You'll end up with a few sheets of saturated washi, and one sheet of washi covered in the plant matter that was in the hash. Everything pulls cleanly off the parchment. I put the washi in the freeze for a few minutes. This gets rid of any stickyness so that I can cut the saturated washi into very thin ribbons with scissors. The thin ribbons are stored in the freezer. I found that because the surface area is so large, the hash will lose some terpenes after a week or so if stored at room temp. Storing in the freezer seems to make it last for at least a month.
@fangorn I'm with you here. I prefer the 18650 for maximum compactness. I can increase the chamber size and heater size slightly without changing the outside dimensions at all.... so no need for making anything larger.
Vaporware
Well-Known Member
Sorry to kick off the battery discussion again if the size didn’t already need to change!
The downside of enlarging the heater and stems is that universal compatibility would end. Right now it’s nice being able to use the same stems, heaters and batteries in any Nomad or Toad.
That’s not necessarily a good reason never to change it, but it is a good reason to be sure you want to and to consider what else is out there.
If you make the stems the same size as the TM then a lot of people will already have stems they can use with it, and your stems could be usable with the TM, etc.
Also consider your future designs. If the heater was going to be huge on a plug-in it wouldn’t be relevant, but if it was going to be about the right size to put in a portable too, that would be one less heater size you would have to develop and produce. Plus there might be some opportunities for crossover in stems/capsules/coolers…
If you do go with a modular stem system, that also gives you (and potentially users of the TM or other device) the option of using a larger chamber combined with a smaller mouthpiece. I think the current size is decent in my mouth, but I think I would prefer smaller and maybe flatter rather than round. Larger would probably have me looking at add-on mouthpieces.
Also, thanks for the hash paper explanation! Sounds easy enough.
The downside of enlarging the heater and stems is that universal compatibility would end. Right now it’s nice being able to use the same stems, heaters and batteries in any Nomad or Toad.
That’s not necessarily a good reason never to change it, but it is a good reason to be sure you want to and to consider what else is out there.
If you make the stems the same size as the TM then a lot of people will already have stems they can use with it, and your stems could be usable with the TM, etc.
Also consider your future designs. If the heater was going to be huge on a plug-in it wouldn’t be relevant, but if it was going to be about the right size to put in a portable too, that would be one less heater size you would have to develop and produce. Plus there might be some opportunities for crossover in stems/capsules/coolers…
If you do go with a modular stem system, that also gives you (and potentially users of the TM or other device) the option of using a larger chamber combined with a smaller mouthpiece. I think the current size is decent in my mouth, but I think I would prefer smaller and maybe flatter rather than round. Larger would probably have me looking at add-on mouthpieces.
Also, thanks for the hash paper explanation! Sounds easy enough.
Ramahs
Fucking Combustion (mostly) Since February 2017
I don't feel the need for a wider draw-tube, because it already feels wide enough on my lips (you're welcome, posts taken out of context thread).
What I mean is that if the wider inner diameter also means a wider outer diameter, then I don't think it's worth it (Unless, of course, you could taper one end or something.).
But, that's just me. Others may disagree.
I do like the idea of vaping the washi hash paper, and am curious to see more info on that.
What I mean is that if the wider inner diameter also means a wider outer diameter, then I don't think it's worth it (Unless, of course, you could taper one end or something.).
But, that's just me. Others may disagree.
I do like the idea of vaping the washi hash paper, and am curious to see more info on that.
passenger
is this thing on?
Thank you for the details @Dan Morrison I think that idea is unheard before and like Frenchy Cannoli would maybe have done it - if he had been into vaping that is. Very cool. Well, one had to find clean Washi paper for the purpose of course.. and what interesting and beautiful paper that is by the way.
Based on the feedback here, I feel like it'll be fine to keep the heater/chamber the same diameter. I suppose I was feeling the pressure to keep up with larger diameter herb chambers in other vaporizers. The fact is that the more material you load into the chamber, the more vapor you're going to be able to extract. The market tends to prioritize 'heavy hitters' these days I feel like.
But... I like my small chambers personally. And if I have to load it twice, so be it... that's two fresh first hits of terpenes I'll get!
I didn't think of the mouthpiece being larger as well.... and I prefer a smaller mouthpiece as well.
@passenger, Hot water in bottle rolling technique was definitely borrowed from Frenchy. And the cool thing about washi is that the good stuff is all hand made, sustainable, and uses no harmful chemicals in the processing. You'll see techniques like... washing the plant fibers in cold mountain streams, bleaching in the sun ontop of snow..etc.. It's all very nature friendly. These papers are designed to be as inert as possible so that they remain stable for hundreds of years.
But... I like my small chambers personally. And if I have to load it twice, so be it... that's two fresh first hits of terpenes I'll get!
I didn't think of the mouthpiece being larger as well.... and I prefer a smaller mouthpiece as well.
@passenger, Hot water in bottle rolling technique was definitely borrowed from Frenchy. And the cool thing about washi is that the good stuff is all hand made, sustainable, and uses no harmful chemicals in the processing. You'll see techniques like... washing the plant fibers in cold mountain streams, bleaching in the sun ontop of snow..etc.. It's all very nature friendly. These papers are designed to be as inert as possible so that they remain stable for hundreds of years.
passenger
is this thing on?
I couldn't really comment on this, as my Toad is still in his pond but I am quite sure I like the Toad with the smaller chamber as it is more. Not all trends should be followed anyway. For example I wouldn't be a fan of the Vapman having a larger bowl and I am no macrodoser either... which plays a role in that preference of course as well
KeroZen
Chronic vapaholic
From experience: larger diameter systems (ex: 18mm in RBT devices) yield a higher chance to hotspot and a much stronger "sucking on a hair drier" effect, requiring more cooling length to not hurt one's throat.
Smaller diameter systems (ex: 14mm standard taper joints like in the early MistVape Imp) are easier on the throat but feel too draw-restricted. They don't hotspot but since you need to have a deeper bowl (to load the same quantity), you get more of a gradient effect and flipping/stirring mid-way becomes mandatory for full extraction.
I said it before, but the true 14mm system we have in the Nomad/Toad feels like the perfect balance to me. Free-flowing, not much hot-spotting and easier on the throat.
Smaller diameter systems (ex: 14mm standard taper joints like in the early MistVape Imp) are easier on the throat but feel too draw-restricted. They don't hotspot but since you need to have a deeper bowl (to load the same quantity), you get more of a gradient effect and flipping/stirring mid-way becomes mandatory for full extraction.
I said it before, but the true 14mm system we have in the Nomad/Toad feels like the perfect balance to me. Free-flowing, not much hot-spotting and easier on the throat.
namasteIII
Well-Known Member
Slightly on that topic, here is 2 weeks of Toad AVB.
ibb.co
Some dark spots, but overall very even, and nothing left to extract.
All sessions with fresh, or fresh -1 session battery on the new high heater.
*edit to add that my batteries are 2 years old. I have new ones but slightly scared to try because pretty powerful as is.
I use and fill to the top the old wood capsule chamber. With an extremely light or no tamp.
Grind medium fine.
Estimated session is 10 10 seconds hits.
I draw slowly but not incredibly slow, sometimes I feather the button with the new high heater.
I pregrind a bunch and leave it in a vial so it’s probably a bit more dry than fresh grinding. (Vapes like dry in my experience, tho fresh grind for max flavor)
Its 50/50 mix of thc and cbd buds tho thats likley not relevant (but really fantastic if you want to try)
thats all the useful info I believe I can add.
05-B4-E73-B-07-D7-46-B6-B58-C-FE4-CFD99-E2-B0 hosted at ImgBB
Image 05-B4-E73-B-07-D7-46-B6-B58-C-FE4-CFD99-E2-B0 hosted in ImgBB
Some dark spots, but overall very even, and nothing left to extract.
All sessions with fresh, or fresh -1 session battery on the new high heater.
*edit to add that my batteries are 2 years old. I have new ones but slightly scared to try because pretty powerful as is.
I use and fill to the top the old wood capsule chamber. With an extremely light or no tamp.
Grind medium fine.
Estimated session is 10 10 seconds hits.
I draw slowly but not incredibly slow, sometimes I feather the button with the new high heater.
I pregrind a bunch and leave it in a vial so it’s probably a bit more dry than fresh grinding. (Vapes like dry in my experience, tho fresh grind for max flavor)
Its 50/50 mix of thc and cbd buds tho thats likley not relevant (but really fantastic if you want to try)
thats all the useful info I believe I can add.
feralcomprehension
Qualified Observer
Useful info, thanks.
Are you simply being prudent or does performance drop sharply using a cell at fresh-2 sessions?
(Another way, how many sessions between charges?)
namasteIII
Well-Known Member
It drops noticeably after 2 and gets it unenjoyable after 4 in my experience. After 5 or 6 unusable.
I tend to only do 1 or 2 sessions a day so thats part of it. So I use the one battery, and then the next day, start with a fresh one.
The other part is that I’m usually sitting within a few feet or perhaps arms length of my fresh batteries, so why not switch if it gives the best experience for such little effort.
Rather than numbers I like to describe battery in adjectives. The Toad / Nomad is good, but adapt to your use case and take advantage of the advantages of 18650 and you will have a better than good time most likely.
I tend to only do 1 or 2 sessions a day so thats part of it. So I use the one battery, and then the next day, start with a fresh one.
The other part is that I’m usually sitting within a few feet or perhaps arms length of my fresh batteries, so why not switch if it gives the best experience for such little effort.
Rather than numbers I like to describe battery in adjectives. The Toad / Nomad is good, but adapt to your use case and take advantage of the advantages of 18650 and you will have a better than good time most likely.
goldfinger
Well-Known Member
The market definitely favours heavy-hitters nowadays, I feel. It makes sense, too - nobody likes to bump their head on a ceiling with these devices, especially with some of the smooth, heavy-hitting portables just hanging around out there (the bowle, minivap, and tinymight all come to mind).
I saw some mention about sizing that's compatible with the TinyMight, and that's a consideration as well - people like to engage with these types of products, and being able to offshore some of that customization work is a nice thought. I mean, it's money in someone else's pocket, but you don't seem to have a shortage of work lol, so there's that.
Just chiming in here.
namasteIII
Well-Known Member
Finally took some pictures. I used the Toad's cousin as a prop so had to take pictures of that too, pretty sure Okins are exempted from all rules around here anyway.
Take a look.
If you want too, heres my old Nomad album.
As far as review I'll keep it real short since it's mostly the same as the Nomad.
Design Improvements...
The Button sticks out and is more clicky. The recessed button on the Nomad 1 looks really sleek, but it means you sorta have to dig your finger in to get to it, it was also less clicky, and a bit more inconsistent. On either device you want to fully press the button all the way to the back plate, so not having to dig, or have walls in the way and being more clicky and responsive means performance and consistency are improved.
Magnetic bottom plate. This is great because on / off is a lot easier and safer vs the bridge mechanism on the nomad 1. There is no question, less work, no finicky middle stage (when you try and hang the bridge on the edge of the battery and heater for the off position) Also swaping or opening is easier because you lift a plate vs unscrew a screw. Also I believe the metal is changed and improved to require less cleaning (but I can never keep track of who has brass or bronze so I won't say)
I will say the bottom plate of the Nomad 1 is extremely steam punk and beautiful, I really really like it aesthetically, especially when you use the Nomad with no sleeve and can see the heater and battery held in by it. Also because the new inside plate is recessed it's a bit more of a dig to clean, vs the flat plate of the Nomad 1.
The new heater... It's really nice, gives bigger hits easier. Not much more to say about it honestly. I used the low heater for 2 years straight, so it has a massive special place in my heart, and I plan to continue to use it. I assume this is an improvement on the old high heater, but I never used or mastered it enough to feel I can say that confidently. That heater was like full power instantly which might sound attractive, but in my experience it was to much for the setting and gave 1 or 2 huge hits that felt too hot, and kinda ruined the rest of your session. But again it could probably be mastered.
The new heater is very nice especially for on demand usage. The low heater is amazing if you do the whole bowl at once and use the residual heat, great flavor, feeling, and large satisfying hits. However on this new heater it has the power to not need the residual heat so you can get really nice hits in an on demand not session environment.
Because of its power I do lightly feather the button during usage which I believe it was designed so you don't have to do that, but I noticed the herb getting darker than I wanted without doing that.
Of course in usage there are many more variables than the heater alone so don't take my words as anything more than they are, 1 persons opinion.
The Toad feels really amazing, its soft and smooth, the design is tight and quality, everything fits great. As someone with a Nomad 1 I can confidently see improvements In Dans crafting confidence. Which is hard to say because there is nothing not amazing about the craftsmanship of the Nomad 1, but those specific design improvements I mentioned, its cool for me too see how years later, he iterated slightly and improved logically on things it seems we both discovered over a long time of usage had room for improvement.
Take a look.
If you want too, heres my old Nomad album.
As far as review I'll keep it real short since it's mostly the same as the Nomad.
Design Improvements...
The Button sticks out and is more clicky. The recessed button on the Nomad 1 looks really sleek, but it means you sorta have to dig your finger in to get to it, it was also less clicky, and a bit more inconsistent. On either device you want to fully press the button all the way to the back plate, so not having to dig, or have walls in the way and being more clicky and responsive means performance and consistency are improved.
Magnetic bottom plate. This is great because on / off is a lot easier and safer vs the bridge mechanism on the nomad 1. There is no question, less work, no finicky middle stage (when you try and hang the bridge on the edge of the battery and heater for the off position) Also swaping or opening is easier because you lift a plate vs unscrew a screw. Also I believe the metal is changed and improved to require less cleaning (but I can never keep track of who has brass or bronze so I won't say)
I will say the bottom plate of the Nomad 1 is extremely steam punk and beautiful, I really really like it aesthetically, especially when you use the Nomad with no sleeve and can see the heater and battery held in by it. Also because the new inside plate is recessed it's a bit more of a dig to clean, vs the flat plate of the Nomad 1.
The new heater... It's really nice, gives bigger hits easier. Not much more to say about it honestly. I used the low heater for 2 years straight, so it has a massive special place in my heart, and I plan to continue to use it. I assume this is an improvement on the old high heater, but I never used or mastered it enough to feel I can say that confidently. That heater was like full power instantly which might sound attractive, but in my experience it was to much for the setting and gave 1 or 2 huge hits that felt too hot, and kinda ruined the rest of your session. But again it could probably be mastered.
The new heater is very nice especially for on demand usage. The low heater is amazing if you do the whole bowl at once and use the residual heat, great flavor, feeling, and large satisfying hits. However on this new heater it has the power to not need the residual heat so you can get really nice hits in an on demand not session environment.
Because of its power I do lightly feather the button during usage which I believe it was designed so you don't have to do that, but I noticed the herb getting darker than I wanted without doing that.
Of course in usage there are many more variables than the heater alone so don't take my words as anything more than they are, 1 persons opinion.
The Toad feels really amazing, its soft and smooth, the design is tight and quality, everything fits great. As someone with a Nomad 1 I can confidently see improvements In Dans crafting confidence. Which is hard to say because there is nothing not amazing about the craftsmanship of the Nomad 1, but those specific design improvements I mentioned, its cool for me too see how years later, he iterated slightly and improved logically on things it seems we both discovered over a long time of usage had room for improvement.
Wow! Amazing photos @namasteIII, thanks for sharing!!
seriousTone
Well-Known Member
NICE dude, now that's a review!
fangorn
Well-Known Member
@namasteIII great pictures !!!
