Discontinued The Persei Vaporizer for herbs and concentrates.
- Thread starter THC SCIENTIFIC
- Start date
I believe i already addressed the seperate cartridges of the cera vs the one with the hercules but ill share my thoughts again for everyone...
The cera works great with herbs in the LL and works great with oil in the EO. But these are two sperate cartridges and to get the extra one you spend 100$. Is it worth it having both, Imo yes. But the EO is the real winner. No issues with the cera, a latching switch would be nice and there are some ideas out there but no actual latching switch and again thats only for LL the need of a latching switch. My only two complaints about the cera are in regards to the LL, the mouthpiece gets way too hot and nothavong a latching switch is a hinder. But if there was a latching switch then the mouthpiece would end up being unusable after a few minutes so there is no real solution as of now. Its still usable though and performs well.
The herc on the other hand...
White rod can do oils, or throw a screen on top and add some herbs.
Blue rod can do herbs (not well at the moment) or mix in some oil with the herbs and it really shines. There is no need to switch cartridges or clean in between. You just need to remove the coil when switching from the white to blue rod. But the white rod works so well both or just oil that i dont really see a need for the blue rod because its just too hard to use with just herbs.
As for what i prefer, they both have their merits. If your out and about the cera is awesome. I can just bring my EO and smoothflow and then just pack the LL with the mp on and have it as a spare or vice versa.
The hercules with the small parts is much harder to change on the go, but if you have the white rod you dont really need to change anything...just throw some herbs in.
At the moment, i would not recommend the hercules for just herbs. Its just too tricky and even when i get it working properly it still doesnt compare to the white rod with oil and herbs or the Cera LL. i think the iris top could change this though whenever its released.
And i think your spot on about the cera mini/lite it will most likely be the same length just a lighter material (carbon fiber last time i checked) and thumb switch.
yeah, i mean they are both fairly long and also bulky. You cant conceal either very easily with just a hand. And IMO that is not discreet. It might be a little more discreet in other places but where I am, if it doesnt look like a regular sized pen or ecig you will get stares.
Also like i mentioned previously, the cera EO and smoothflow mouthpiece looks more like an electric toothbrush than anything else. And id rather have people thinking its an electric toothbrush than an oversized ecig. But again these are just my opinions, whats portable for you might not be portable to me and whats discreet for you might not be for me etc... Etc...
Last edited:
for Herbs ill give the Cera the win thats given that thing is a beast.
For oils im gonna let you decide.
.9 ohms load 3.7v battery. 15 watts of power
One glows super red and produces hybrid vapor ( vapor with smoke ) because we know to get anything to glow is well beyond 500F.
Other does not glow and produces virtually no hybrid vapor. Cleaner taste from start to finish. Can use 18350's and 18650's.
One draws 4-5 amps constant
Other draws 4-5 amps on start up but requires 2-3 amps to keep it going.
One requires you to send it in if it goes down.
Other can service yourself.
One needs to be torched and 20/20/20 and some oven baking to be clean.
Other simple 10 minute process at max. Drys in seconds. 100% recoverable.
One air flow is really constricted ( keeps it from leaking oil to a degree )
Other air flow is wide open ( will empty coil, needs user technique to compensate )
One is plug and play easy to use
The other requires some NASA training
One can do lots of oils as long as they pass the foil test.
The other well lets just say it will vaporize any type of essential oil, water extract, or any type of extracted oil out there and can be 100% cleaned.
Now as for herbs the blue rods do herbs you just have to wait about 30 seconds for it to have chance to heat up the herbs. While heating up the herb dont forget to pulse every 8 seconds to heat evenly.
Vitolo has gotten massive clouds on the original Herc 3.7v its possible. Just needs some patients and practice.
The Hercules isnt for the timid or the inexperienced neither is a F1 Racing Machine, yet both need training and experience to accomplish their intended purpose.
If anyone is willing to learn and take the time the Hercules Sr 71 will out perform anything out there when it comes to oils as it is its main purpose. It was designed to accomplish pure taste from start to finish and remove all ecig technology from the oil industry. Vaping Herbs is secondary to the SR as its not the intended purpose or designed purpose. So is also herbs and oils, or oils and convection herbs, or using the herbs to do fractional distillation vaping. Just many many many side effects of Herc.
I think everyone knows my opinion by now, but nothing i own or have tried can beat the black rod for oils.
Also, great point about the oils. The cera is very picky when it comes to oils. If it doesnt pass the foil test you shouldnt use it or it will funk up real easily and eventually need cleaning or service to become workable.
The hercules can do any and all oils ive tried. I would never throw reclaim into the cera which is why i never reclaimed with the cera. The hercules works perfectly with reclaim. And even the reclaim tastes great with the black rod.
As for airflow, i haventreally noticed that much of a difference between the cera and the hercules but others have...
The blue rod definitely works, i just wouldnt recommend it to someone using strictly herbs at the moment. Like you said, it requires patience and practice to get good results and thats something a lot of people on here do not have. Also it works much better if you mix in some oil so there isnt much advantage over the white rod. Except no coil needed, more herb and less oil nedeed so less costly, and 18650 vs 2-18350s. Oh and better taste with less control.
The other great point you mentioned is about service. Even the smallest issue such as a loose screw would require you to send the cera in for service. Or risk voiding warranty to try and fix yourself. And both times i had issues with my thermovape products were on a Friday. And both times i didnt get a response til monday.
The one time i had an issue with my herc when i first got it on a saturday i sent a pm to @THC SCIENTIFIC and @BLAZING OG. They both responded within an hour. And G spent the entire afternoon pming trying to get the issue resolved. Then started skyping with me once i got home 8 hours later and eventually got my hercules working around 2am est time. No other employee or company would do that.
Also, great point about the oils. The cera is very picky when it comes to oils. If it doesnt pass the foil test you shouldnt use it or it will funk up real easily and eventually need cleaning or service to become workable.
The hercules can do any and all oils ive tried. I would never throw reclaim into the cera which is why i never reclaimed with the cera. The hercules works perfectly with reclaim. And even the reclaim tastes great with the black rod.
As for airflow, i haventreally noticed that much of a difference between the cera and the hercules but others have...
The blue rod definitely works, i just wouldnt recommend it to someone using strictly herbs at the moment. Like you said, it requires patience and practice to get good results and thats something a lot of people on here do not have. Also it works much better if you mix in some oil so there isnt much advantage over the white rod. Except no coil needed, more herb and less oil nedeed so less costly, and 18650 vs 2-18350s. Oh and better taste with less control.
The other great point you mentioned is about service. Even the smallest issue such as a loose screw would require you to send the cera in for service. Or risk voiding warranty to try and fix yourself. And both times i had issues with my thermovape products were on a Friday. And both times i didnt get a response til monday.
The one time i had an issue with my herc when i first got it on a saturday i sent a pm to @THC SCIENTIFIC and @BLAZING OG. They both responded within an hour. And G spent the entire afternoon pming trying to get the issue resolved. Then started skyping with me once i got home 8 hours later and eventually got my hercules working around 2am est time. No other employee or company would do that.
Last edited:
Atomsk
Floating In My Tin Can
It was my understanding that the Cera cores are different prices between the stainless or titanium? About a hundred bucks, if I'm remembering right, so $99 stainless, $199 titanium.
In any case, the reason why I brought up that the Cera might have some moving pieces that aren't yet refined was to illustrate that the full potential of each product may not have been reached. Sounds like the Cera is, as of now, performing all it states at full potential. Whereas the Hercules, while performing as stated, still has some refinement in the works and may be able to change a comparison completely.
So I'm sure we'll be seeing some new techniques / pieces to vape herb or oil especially; whether it's in the new coil designs, or whatever way G comes up to heat herb in the Herc. Hopefully at that point, the Herc will be fully up to snuff.
Now, do you mean that I can put a drop of ejuice every other hit with a fresh coil, or do you mean that I can add a drop of ejuice to my wax-coil?
You can do a few drops on a clean coil, or on top of your oil.
Who's to stop you from trying to experiment?
OF
Well-Known Member
IMO while lots of that post is subjective, the above part is just wrong. That's not how thermodynamics works. It's not the source temperature that matters. The source is always hotter. What you're saying is 'using a 1300 degree torch to melt the oil in loading an Omicron cart proves the oil is heated past 500F'.
Or the glowing nail in the Bender means there's combustion going on?
OF
Your right OF but im not constantly using 1300F to heat the oil to melt. Using fraction of that. Like half a second so the oil only reaches around 120-160F.
Example I use a half a second with the Torch to heat the funnel.
Now if I held that 1300f torch to the oil not only will it vaporize it will also bring the oil to the point of combustion.
Way more then needed.
Now lets say if Cera used a cartridge that does not glow. Would it produce vapor as it does now?
Meaning if it used fraction of its 1300F like how I used 10% of the torch to melt the oil into the omicron cartridge.
Also the bender does combust if you press and hold on.
See thermodynamics is a two way street.
Example I use a half a second with the Torch to heat the funnel.
Now if I held that 1300f torch to the oil not only will it vaporize it will also bring the oil to the point of combustion.
Way more then needed.
Now lets say if Cera used a cartridge that does not glow. Would it produce vapor as it does now?
Meaning if it used fraction of its 1300F like how I used 10% of the torch to melt the oil into the omicron cartridge.
Also the bender does combust if you press and hold on.
See thermodynamics is a two way street.
Krazzykid
Well-Known Member
G, so you are saying the rod in the SR doesn't glow? At what, 1200F if I remember correctly?
The Cera doesn't reach anywhere near 1300F in operation, just like the SR won't reach 1200F in correct operation. The Cera only needs power for a few seconds to make vapor(EO cart), not smoke and vapor as you claim it does, you then power on and off as you need a hit.
The Cera with LL cart also WILL NOT combust if just hold the power on, in fact it is very hard to achieve combustion in the Cera and takes a combo of too fine grind and certain inhaling technique.
I'm sorry but the claims you are making against the Cera are just plain wrong, and this is not the first time I have seen you spreading misinformation on Thermovape products either.
Edit, and the Cera will do all extracts as well as long as you have them in the correct cart.
I can take a Cera LL cart and do oil and herb at the same time as well too(and it does a wonderful job at it with no problem), or do straight bubble in the LL cart, or kief, or any mixture of all the above. That is all in one cart.
Also as was pointed out, a Cera in it's 18650 mode(the only mode currently) is right around the same size as a Persei with SR in it's shortest (18350) mode.
So if the Cera is ever given a body to run a single 18350 battery(which one can easily make themselves) it will be far smaller and stealthier than a Persei with SR
Last edited:
Ok not only talking about the Cera im talking about all heating wire vapes for oils.
Let me answer your rebuttal one at a time.
OF does not deny the Cera's wire temps being around 1300F. In Fact OF is the one that said anything about Cera reaching 1300F when he compared it to the Bender at 1200F.
The SR has the capability to run at 1200F thats given because its designed to vape anything and everything. But you can also use the white rods at 6.0v and vape oils, doubt you can use a 3v battery to vape oils on the heating wire vapes.
Cera can do all the oils sure. Im not saying it wont. But will you do scissor hash in your EO cart?
Now you claim the Cera needs a few seconds to make vapor, sure thats a good thing, now if your going for that 10 second or even yet 20 second hit when the heater reaches 1300 F is that good for your oil?
New i understand the Cera and the Darts used the same heater but the ceramic is different.
Last time i checked .9 ohms at 3.7v gives you around 15 watts and with a wire that thin the surface area that small that things gonna glow like a glow stick. Hell even a 2.4 ohm cartridge glows.
I am using this image because i cant find a EO core but this glows and it uses less power then a Cera.
When you have that glow your around 1200F+
That is no good for oils. Remember we have this in our cartridge system we know a thing about wire heaters. The Reason why the Hercules SR 71 is made.
What im saying is that glow gets your oil past vaporization point.
These are ecigs off google search and none at .9 ohms. Imagine what glow it will produce when its .9 ohms and 15 watts of power instead of 5 in these images.
Last edited:
Krazzykid
Well-Known Member
Yes the Cera's wire can reach 1300F when completely empty, but not possible when it is loaded! The laws of thermodynamics won't allow it to!
The oil surrounding it keeps it from reaching above the temps needed to vaporize the oil.
If the scissor hash melted freely and passed a foil test yes I would put it in the EO cart, otherwise I would use it in a LL cart.
Again even a 10 or 15second or 1 minute hit with a properly loaded EO cart the wire will never reach 1300F. It's not possible. I have ran mine through almost a full gram with never letting off the button and inhaling constantly and never so much as a single burnt taste.
The Ceramics in the EO and dart are exactly the same as I recall, just more of it in the EO.
Yes the 0.9 ohm at 3.7v in the Cera is a little over 15 watts, but what about 1.5 ohm at 7.4v in SR that's 36.5 watts in the Sr71. So what's your point? You are more than double the number of watts so by that thinking the SR71 would be far more likely to combust oil. Wire or rod, it doesn't matter.
Again as I said the laws of thermodynamics aren't as straight forward as watts.
Last edited:
OF
Well-Known Member
Thanks. I didn't invent the rules of course, just repeating them. In each case a fraction of the available energy is used to make vapor. Much of it goes to heating stuff up we don't really benefit from.
And Thermodynamics is definitely a one way street, that's one of the concepts guys have trouble with. Heat only flows from hot to cold. And it's the flow that matters (hence the 'dynamics' part), most guys try to use static thinking which doesn't work. Heat enters the oil from the (hotter) source while at the same time it leaves the hot oil for colder surroundings. The rates determine what happens (along with some 'K factors' related to the materials). In a way it's like a pond where water enters by a stream and leaves by spilling over the dam, leaking into the soil, evaporation and so on. With the exception of evaporation always moving downhill. The water level (actual heat in the oil) is determined by those rates.
There's noting to deny, it's the way it works. You're still making it sound like proof oil is being overheated. But it's not. You should try it, then you'll understand why guys like the fresh taste and don't complain about eventually tasting burnt like Omicron carts (where conduction guarantees overheating). It gets back to that 'only part of the heat is used' bit.
No, the ceramic in both DART and Cera is exactly the same (out of the same boxes) as is the wire (same alloy, different gauge). By making the heater assembly bigger 'hot spots' are lessened making it easier to get it making vapor properly.
As to the last bit, no, the rules of physics say that in general the temperature of the vapor doesn't go up until all the non evaporated THC is exhausted.....same as a pan of water on your stove does.
It's also worth noting that raw power doesn't tell the whole story. My soldering iron is over 30 Watts and doesn't glow........the losses are too great for that. Thermodynamics again.
Exactly so on all counts IMO. We must have gone to the same schools........
We have the added advantage here, I think, of knowing that Cera is not burning the oils when correctly used. That simple observation trumps a lot of speculation IMO. Reality beats theory?
Thanks. IMO very well put, I wish I'd said that.....
OF
If i took a 1 minute hit off my cera EO i think my throat would be ruined for at least a few hours. I can barely hit it for 20-30 seconds without hacking up a lung.
As far as glowing, the white rod in the SR71 will definitely glow as its supposed to. The black rod, i can hold and hold and i have yet to see it glow. But produces great tasty vapor nonetheless
Last edited:
Krazzykid
Well-Known Member
I didn't mean actually inhaling for a minute straight but rather holding the power on for a minute and inhaling over and over(You can see Noah going through PG this way in one of the early demonstrations).
Don't take any of my posts to be bashing on W9 products, I do own and use them as well, but rather disagreeing with misinformation about the Cera.
I'm still a young buck, 25, but I am mostly self taught. I am in school for mechanical engineering and have a basic understanding of many things. Thanks for the kind words though!
Ok so lets put thermodynamics to the test here.
20 Watts vs 20 Watts.
Hercules Black Rod 18650 AW IMR 25 seconds burn time ( really about 30-35 )
This pic is taken by a member he will post it if he wants to.
Next Pic 15 watts Cera EO 18650 Cell not sure witch one. Burn Time not sure. Im guessing you will reach that in 10 seconds flat.
Does look like its glowing.
Please just dont say that there is oil there and the heat will transfer out. Im sure it will and it does. But that thing reaches 1300F thats not gonna transfer heat out fast enough and stay cool. Just like boiling water. It wont boil within the first few minutes but it will eventually with the right amount of heat. As for you not tasting the burnt oil i would disagree as we have more then 20 people who have both vapes telling us how they like the SR better then the others not just the Cera. You have to understand the Heating wire designs are obsolete.
You dont need to reach 1300 degrees to heat the oil.
Think for a second.
Small thin wire. half gram oil Yes it would need that power, in fact without that power it wont work.
Now think smart and introduce big ceramic rod. Bigger surface area less heat is now needed to do same thing that tiny wire.
The old saying goes no replacement for displacement.
Last edited:
Thats my persei/black rod for whoever cares. Also just wanted to mention that is more like a 30 second heat time. Counted to 10 released the button, then immediately held for another 20 seconds and snapped the picture. No real noticeable glow, but it sure does produce some great tasty vapor.Ok so lets put thermodynamics to the test here.
20 Watts vs 20 Watts.
Hercules Black Rod 18650 AW IMR 25 seconds burn time ( really about )
This pic is taken by a member he will post it if he wants to.
.
Im not taking anything as bashing. I love both products, but for oils imo the black rod definitely trumps the cera EO. And im not quite sure what you mean by holding for a minute and inhaling over and over with the cera. I can usually only hold mine for about 15-20 seconds tops and even after that i have to take a few more puffs without power to get rid of the remaining vapor. So even if i held it for a minute and inhaled/exhaled/inhaled/exhaled etc... The vapor would be way too hot and harsh for me. But with the black rod, i can hold the button for well over a minute and its still smooth and tasty...
Last edited:
No Of im gonna disagree. Just does not add up.
I have wire and silica wick running 2.4 ohms at 3.7v producing around 5 watts, and i can burn oil in a omicron cart,
But i have .9 ohm carts at 3.7v running around 15-20 watts, thats three times the power of a Omicron Cart and i cant burn oil?
Hmm seems like Thermodynamic rules has been changed and many people have not been notified.
Edit. Now 1300F --> into oil, heats up oil, escapes, into cartridge, then body and heats up the body right?
Now please tell me how hot that oil gets when that heater is glowing red.
PhotoRider
Diagnosed with level 11 G.A.S.
the rod changes as it heats. it initially starts at 36w, then quickly drops to about 18w. so the power is the same.
however isnt the heating material difference and will react differently with the same power. the wire heater does have a higher variance on temp.
its not apples to apples on the numbers in my opinion
however isnt the heating material difference and will react differently with the same power. the wire heater does have a higher variance on temp.
its not apples to apples on the numbers in my opinion
Ahhh i want an Iris! Do you have a blue rod by any chance? Thats what im more interested in the iris for...
OF
Well-Known Member
Sorry, not a valid "test" IMO. Apples and Oranges.
OK, I won't say it. No need to, it's the way things are. But the second part is definitely wrong. The whole idea of equilibrium is based on that very balance. You've missed the point in the pan of water example I think, the water doesn't get any hotter, it stays at 212F, the only thing that changes is the rate of boil off.
I'm glad you've got happy customers who prefer your new product but that doesn't change the widespread experience that Ceras don't burn the oil as you imply. You don't have guys objecting until the carts are very badly fouled. It's the way it is.
There are posts in this Forum in the last few days that put the two units basically on par I think? Do you contest those evaluations?
I also get that 'exposed heaters are dead end technology' is a great marketing statement, but I suggest not everyone agrees. Lots of guys are mighty happy with DART, Revolution and Cera you know.
As Skeeter Skelton once said, "your doctor might tell you Bourbon has no nutritional value but there's an awful lot of independent experimenters out there that disagree".
OF
Krazzykid
Well-Known Member
G, what determines weather or not the oil will burn has a lot to do with how quickly new oil surrounds the heating element as the old oil is vaped away.
The omicron carts use silica to carry the oil to the heating element, and oil does not travel through silica the best. That is probably the most determining factor on burnt taste in this application. Am I saying the Cera can't burn oil, no I'm not saying that at all. The Sr71 can burn oil just as easy as well. Under proper use though(with the proper material) neither should.
Now to that picture you showed of the DISASSEMBLED EO core, that is not a complete core and it also doesn't have any oil in it at all. So that proves nothing to weather or not it would glow when loaded, nor does it speak to the thermodynamics of the core at all.
So when you said "lets put thermodynamics to the test here" that means nothing.
Yes the rod drops in watts after it heats up, but so does heating wire.
Edit. What I really meant is as it heats up the resistance of the rod or wire changes, which in turn changes the watts delivered
Last edited:
OF
Well-Known Member
Fine by me, I'm not sure I need your agreement to continue to believe in the rules I've been taught and have found to work. Joke if you want, the rules haven't been changed. If they don't fit the specific case you're looking at I suggest you question the case, not the rules.
Yes, heat is flowing from the heater to the rest of the vape though various means....it gets hot.
The oil gets to about 400F and evaporates same as in most cases. Past that point more heat makes more vapor, not hotter vapor for the most part. How hot is the herb in Bender when the rod is glowing? Same deal there you know......
OF
i think he was trying to proove that the EO core can and will glow (similar to the white rod)
Where the black rod in the hercules, will get hot, but pretty much never glows as shown from my picture.
I dont know what that proves, or if it is actually what he was comparing though. But both my pic and the one of the cera were both heated with no oil. Cera glows, black rod doesnt...
Ive never experienced a burn or burnt taste with the cera, but its definitely a lot harsher than the black rod. I have yet to get a harsh taste out of the black rod no matter how long i hold down the button.
I am one of the people to say that are basically on par with eachother. At least the white rod and cera EO. Pretty similar results and same taste. You can get better taste with both cera and white hercules by pulsing the heat on each. But that requires more finese and technique.
the black rod, imo, beats the cera hands down. Theres just no comparison
You really cant go wrong either way. I love the cera and i also love the persei.
These are just my opinions. Im sorry if i stirred up a fight here with my comparisons. I just thought i would compare the two seeing that they are the two top dogs in the oil game.
Ill leave the facts and statistics to you guys though...
Last edited: