Discontinued The Persei Vaporizer for herbs and concentrates.

[ataxian]

Yeah! I thought about trying a KISS cart with it that way I'll have more control over usage but I want to be able to fully enjoy all the flavor as well!

I could do a 2.4 but I need to buy more I want to get the most flavor out of this oil and have it last. Being able to exhale thick clouds is not a priority with this so much as taste and enjoyment

I suspect the K.I.S.S. cart could be the solution?

I'm going to trying every set up possible so I know in the future.

1. SR71
2. 2.4 cart
3. K.I.S.S. cart
4. DOUBLE CARTS

I don't think I can do all 4 trials in one session.

One test per day.

I need to pace myself!

This is already been done I'm sure.
It will be interesting anyway!

Load up 0.6 in a 1.5 cart in one and 0.25 in a SR71!

 

[Bleed4Me]

So I was lucky enough to be given a gram of some blonde rockbudder from Colorado (a rarity in louisiana) and I'm just tooooorn on how to best enjoy it. I don't think I'll be seeing anything of this quality for a while so i dont want to dab it. Should I load up a brand new 1.5ohm cart for it? Boil my SR-71 and load it onto a new, uncut oil coil? Should I buy a black rod and enjoy it with that? Are you guys still suggesting cutting the oil coils for more stable concentrates?

I have never cut my coils. But I think the bottom line on the coils is you have to have enough oil in the Herc to saturate the whole coil before you get big hits. I think some guys were putting an intital .5 grams in there and calling foul because there wasn't big hits. Gotta give a little to get a little...

If you have some good time with your Herc, I say put all that shit in the Herc. I just ordered a black rod this morning, so I don't have any runs with it yet, but if you feather the button on a white rod, you will get all flavor through that Herc. If you have the patience and feel comfortable, I would heat that budder up and whip it out. i like to get a glass dabber and load a fat dab and then run it off the dabber right onto the rod using a torch to make it drip. You have to have good aim to get it to fall inside the coil hole to the rod, but you'll get it. I had some UK cheese shatter that I didn't want to boil all at once in a cart or dab and thats how I did it' Tasted fucking awesome. GOOD LUCK!!!

 

[OF]

actually @OF
, as a nail user and you can ask many other nail users.
grade 5 isn't safe, grade 1-4 is, 2 being the safest.
this is well known in dab circles.

I get it it's popular culture, but nails are an entirely different application.

I understand that the reason there's so much grade 5 out there is it's rejects from medical parts? In that application it seems grade 5 is the best?

So, can someone show a health risk in this use for grade 5? Can someone even show that any maker is using grade 5? Since grades 1 to 4 are basically different forms of pure Ti and pretty soft (and cheaper than grade 5) to me it makes most sense that a maker would use one of those, doesn't it? Cheaper and easier to work are generally strong cards.

Looked at the other way, grade 5 and above (basically alloys) involve further refinement (read higher cost) to make the basically soft material more useful for making structural pieces. Without the very cheap rejects on the surplus to start with I bet nobody would use the harder to work alloys for nails.

Since the maker will have to cold form the coils (not machine knee joint parts) it makes most sense to buy wire suitable to that which means most likely two.....for cost and production reasons, not safety? Looking at the charts, it's what I'd pick anyway. Given the alloy wire (say grade 5 if you needed strength and were willing to pay extra for it) is drawn to size and would therefore need anneals between draws for work hardening (not needed in pure metal forms 1 to 4) I bet the cost is lots higher for that wire? You don't need much, but.....

So I think two things need to be shown: First competitors really are using more expensive, harder to work with, grade 5 for whatever reason and second there's a health risk in this application. The first is perhaps easy (Energy Dispersive X-ray, EDX, will do it easily if it's there), the second not so I'm thinking?

Otherwise I respectfully suggest we're talking about conjecture (that kind of defies logic really) and misplaced safety concerns?

OF

 

[Bob Loblaw]

this all may be so, but again, context.
i get these are questions you have. so go start a thread about it, but arguing with a manufacturer about his choice of materials when you are the only one with such concerns seems semantic and distracting at best. my two cents

 

[OF]

i get these are questions you have. so go start a thread about it, but arguing with a manufacturer about his choice of materials when you are the only one with such concerns seems semantic and distracting at best. my two cents

OK, I get your two cents, you don't want to deal with it here. But my two cents is I'm questioning claims made by the maker here, on this very forum. He brought the issues up, not me. I think the claims should be backed up here as well?

Throwing down the 'my product is better than everyone elses' gauntlet can inspire such things which is why, I think, it's in the Manufacturer Rules?

"You can’t mention another company’s product unless it’s an informational post in response to a member question or incorrect statement, like “our design uses …, while the xyz design uses…”. Even there, you’d be better be absolutely certain that your statement about the other company’s design is 100% factual, and that your statement doesn’t imply in any way that your design is better."

Just before that it states:

"Even saying that you think your product is the best value, best performer, whatever, is likely to spark a response from someone and put you in a bad position, since it would be difficult to detail why your product is better without downgrading another brand/model. If you do so, fine, but don’t be surprised if you get a response that challenges your opinion and makes a good response from you out of bounds with the rules."

None the less, we're here. The claim has been made, I propose those two questions for the reasons I've given.

OF

 

[THC SCIENTIFIC]

@OF the name if the game is to use inert material when it comes to our essential oils. Not have other elements introduced.

You might be ok within iron chromium nickel being in your daily vaporizer most people arnt and want the purest heater available.

I for one would argue and win if titanium is used grade 2 is far more superior then grade 5 because of its purity.

So superior yes Because if what we use it for and I don't want aluminum or vanadium to interfere with my oils. Not all titanium is equal and in this case grade 2 is better.


Now back to your "marketing" claims in sorry that you feel this way but I have yet to see anyone question any manufacturer about what grade they are using. You say halo is using titanium that's great please let me know the grade they are using. If it's grade two then lets have it tested.

If anyone wants to claim grade 2 I'm gonna call bs once I just simply look at their heaters. There is only one way to use grade 2 Ti in heaters and the current availability in the market isn't it.

Proof will be shown when we have our Titanium heaters and showcase it to the world.

And if I can't back up my claims I will eat my words.

Currently there is no grade 2 Ti in the essential oil vaporizer market. Until we bring it out.

 

[nopartofme]

So superior yes Because if what we use it for and I don't want aluminum or vanadium to interfere with my oils. Not all titanium is equal and in this case grade 2 is better.

How do the other metals interfere in this application? I understand the gut feeling that purer is better, but I'm wondering what differences can be seen in usage. Not with a nail, but in this specific application.

New tech and materials that haven't been done before are always intriguing. I just want to know what it 'feels like' here. Is it a flavor thing and/or a health thing?

 

[Sleepin in CA]

So I was lucky enough to be given a gram of some blonde rockbudder from Colorado (a rarity in louisiana) and I'm just tooooorn on how to best enjoy it. I don't think I'll be seeing anything of this quality for a while so i dont want to dab it. Should I load up a brand new 1.5ohm cart for it? Boil my SR-71 and load it onto a new, uncut oil coil? Should I buy a black rod and enjoy it with that? Are you guys still suggesting cutting the oil coils for more stable concentrates?

I vote Hercules. Cut your coil, make sure there's a mm of ceramic rod above coil, load .5ish, choke yourself on clouds. Repeat.

 

[Bleed4Me]

I vote Hercules. Cut your coil, make sure there's a mm of ceramic rod above coil, load .5ish, choke yourself on clouds. Repeat.

That's what The Dude would have done...

The Dude abides!!!

 

[Sleepin in CA]

Ok so I have a question for the forum. I bought both rods with my hercules, but have only used the white 7.4v so far. When (and with what type, read why) should I use the 3.4v? Current waxes include blonde crumbles, shatters, regular crumbles. I know it's a tastier voltage, but are their other things I should know of before cleaning up and loading my 3.4 rod?

Thanks dudes

 

[kindbeats]

Ok so I have a question for the forum. I bought both rods with my hercules, but have only used the white 7.4v so far. When (and with what type, read why) should I use the 3.4v? Current waxes include blonde crumbles, shatters, regular crumbles. I know it's a tastier voltage, but are their other things I should know of before cleaning up and loading my 3.4 rod?

Thanks dudes

I may be mistaken but I was under the impression that the blue rod (3.7v I think?) was for use with flower. Don't quote me on that though.

 

[THC SCIENTIFIC]

How do the other metals interfere in this application? I understand the gut feeling that purer is better, but I'm wondering what differences can be seen in usage. Not with a nail, but in this specific application.

New tech and materials that haven't been done before are always intriguing. I just want to know what it 'feels like' here. Is it a flavor thing and/or a health thing?

Ok to help people understand.

A lot of people are using essential oils to better themselves. Many want to have the tools they are using not to interfere with their essential oils taste or possibly contaminate it. If you are using essential oils and want the purest concentrate available why would you go about introducing other elements into it? in this case aluminum and vanadium.

For health reasons and in the essential oil market Titanium Grade 2 is superior then Grade 5 and Grade 23.
That is why Grade 2 Ti is used everywhere. Some people say grade 5 is medical grade no grade 23 is medical grade, yet the medical grade titanium isnt heated and cooled like the heaters in our vaporizers.


Our goal is to provide the best and we are doing it. I would suggest that people start asking questions and not just believing what they hear. I have yet to see a question about what grade the Ti is when used in heaters yet we question the Grades when it comes to Nails.

@kindbeats the Blue rod is discontinued the black rod can do oils and ok on the herbs. The black rod brings out the full flavor of the essential oil.

 

[Sleepin in CA]

Thanks for the info @kindbeats and @THC SCIENTIFIC . I'm gonna try my black rod later tonight!

 

[nopartofme]

A lot of people are using essential oils to better themselves. Many want to have the tools they are using not to interfere with their essential oils taste or possibly contaminate it. If you are using essential oils and want the purest concentrate available why would you go about introducing other elements into it? in this case aluminum and vanadium.

Well, we're also introducing the element titanium into the mix. If I could vaporize my medicine without any other elements between it and my lungs, that would be pretty neat!

Whether it's one element we're using or three, the question remains "is every involved element safe?" That's the answer I'm looking for in regards to the fears that you're raising toward aluminum and vanadium.

I'm not one to accept any more burden of fear on my back without good evidence for it. I have family members and loved ones who are afflicted with unsubstantiated fears on a daily basis in regards to their water supply, vaccinations, food... It's something I hate to watch happen. People don't need extra fear in their lives, so implications like you're making demand evidence in my opinion.

In this case raising unsubstantiated fears also amounts to an unfair attack on competitors.

For health reasons and in the essential oil market Titanium Grade 2 is superior then Grade 5 and Grade 23.
That is why Grade 2 Ti is used everywhere. Some people say grade 5 is medical grade no grade 23 is medical grade, yet in the medical grade titanium isnt heated and cooled like the heaters in our vaporizers.

The demands that are placed on materials in the essential oils market varies between vaporization methods, so I don't think it makes sense to generalize across that market in this case. It seems to me that it is possible for aluminum to be acceptable in a heating coil but not in a torched nail.

I'm wondering if there is evidence that other grades of titanium are not acceptable in this particular use, not in nails, and what exactly the health risks are.

I would suggest that people start asking questions and not just believing what they hear.

Right on, that's exactly what I'm doing here.

 

[Sleepin in CA]

My Percales when packed to go. One set of 18350's are in the Persei too. The tube contains extra coils and my black ceramic rod.

Rod and coils shown here unpacked.

Got the case from a friend's shop for $5 bucks. It was an eGO pen case. Works perfectly.

 

[THC SCIENTIFIC]

Well, we're also introducing the element titanium into the mix. If I could vaporize my medicine without any other elements between it and my lungs, that would be pretty neat!

Whether it's one element we're using or three, the question remains "is every involved element safe?" That's the answer I'm looking for in regards to the fears that you're raising toward aluminum and vanadium.

I'm not one to accept any more burden of fear on my back without good evidence for it. I have family members and loved ones who are afflicted with unsubstantiated fears on a daily basis in regards to their water supply, vaccinations, food... It's something I hate to watch happen. People don't need extra fear in their lives, so implications like you're making demand evidence in my opinion.

In this case raising unsubstantiated fears also amounts to an unfair attack on competitors.

The demands that are placed on materials in the essential oils market varies between vaporization methods, so I don't think it makes sense to generalize across that market in this case. It seems to me that it is possible for aluminum to be acceptable in a heating coil but not in a torched nail.

I'm wondering if there is evidence that other grades of titanium are not acceptable in this particular use, not in nails, and what exactly the health risks are.

Right on, that's exactly what I'm doing here.

No one is trying to scare anyone here.

Just pointing out that Grade 2 is much safer then grade 5, because of lack of aluminum and vanadium. Yes You are still introducing Titanium to your system but i rather it be the purest one then also introduce aluminum and vanadium with it. The whole idea is safest as possible. That is why your units are made from Ceramic materials and titanium in most cases. Yet the heating wire isnt because it cant be done until now.

The idea is to make it safest as possible we are against introducing elements into our customers lungs that we would not use in ours.

And your right ask the questions but not only to us, ask everyone that uses it, wonder why people dont grade their titanium heaters. Wonder why it does not have a grade on it, ask why they think grade 5 is better then grade 2, ask them if they have a chance would they make grade 2 heaters? In fact i would ask all manufacturers who use heating wires get everyones opinions and proof.


Our proof is this.

Ti Grade 2 that is 99% CP is far better then Ti Grade 5 that is 90% pure. The fact that i am going to substitute nichrome wire for grade 5 which we know is inferior just pointless. Its like escaping the thunder and lightning and the floods by climbing a tree.



In other words if other could do it they would but they cant so they wont.

 

[thevaf]

Not sure if it means anything or adds to the convo, but Grade 5 Ti is usually used up to 400 deg C (750 deg F).

"This alpha-beta alloy is the workhorse alloy of the titanium industry. The alloy is fully heat treatable in section sizes up to 15mm and is used up to approximately 400°C (750°F)." -LINK

So it would not be appropiate with a nail or white rod that exceeds that temp.


(i like sources with my statements)

 

[nopartofme]

Thanks for the link vaf.

G, I heard you the first time in your judgement regarding aluminum and vanadium. I'm asking for the evidence and I'm not just believing what I hear, like you advised.

Whether or not you're trying to, raising health concerns about common materials does create fear and that is something you should be mindful of.

I'm looking for scientific evidence to back up the idea that aluminum and vanadium aren't safe in this application, not just statements about what you believe.

Just pointing out that Grade 2 is much safer then grade 5, because of lack of aluminum and vanadium.

[...]

Our proof is this.

Ti Grade 2 that is 99% CP is far better then Ti Grade 5 that is 90% pure.

A qualitative statement without evidence does not constitute proof, and I think it's disingenuous to suggest otherwise...

The fact that i am going to substitute nichrome wire for grade 5 which we know is inferior just pointless.

This is exactly what we don't know, not without evidence.

 

[Mynameismud]

I have never cut my coils. But I think the bottom line on the coils is you have to have enough oil in the Herc to saturate the whole coil before you get big hits. I think some guys were putting an intital .5 grams in there and calling foul because there wasn't big hits. Gotta give a little to get a little...

If you have some good time with your Herc, I say put all that shit in the Herc. I just ordered a black rod this morning, so I don't have any runs with it yet, but if you feather the button on a white rod, you will get all flavor through that Herc. If you have the patience and feel comfortable, I would heat that budder up and whip it out. i like to get a glass dabber and load a fat dab and then run it off the dabber right onto the rod using a torch to make it drip. You have to have good aim to get it to fall inside the coil hole to the rod, but you'll get it. I had some UK cheese shatter that I didn't want to boil all at once in a cart or dab and thats how I did it' Tasted fucking awesome. GOOD LUCK!!!

Gotta disagree with you here. With my original coil and white rod, i would load a 0.5 buffer, followed by another 0.5. This was a stable shatter, and i could only get whispy hits at best....cut the coil down and immediately got much better results...

Also, yes you can get amazing taste witht he white rod and feathering the button, but you can get amazing tastes and rock the button all day with the black rod. And the taste is possibly even a little better then the white and feathering...

As for your loading, i tend to place the oil right over the rod like you were saying, but only with the black rod. It is much easier to have the oil leak out the bottom when its all in the center, especially witht he white rod

 

[itschad]

Do you guys that have nibbler XL's just fucking LOVE them?

Debating between getting that and just a whole new rig

 

[THC SCIENTIFIC]

Thanks for the link vaf. G, I heard you the first time in your judgement regarding aluminum and vanadium. I'm asking for the evidence and I'm not just believing what I hear, like you advised.

Whether or not you're trying to, raising health concerns about common materials does create fear. I'm looking for scientific evidence to back up the idea that aluminum and vanadium aren't safe in this application, not just statements about what you believe.

A qualitative statement without evidence does not constitute proof, and I think it's disingenuous to suggest otherwise...

Side effects of vanadium, now if this is possible in regular day to day use and consumption, adding more vanadium in an air path while introducing heating and cooling process continually is not something anyone would take a chance on if given the knowledge and chance.

http://www.webmd.com/vitamins-suppl...ngredientId=749&activeIngredientName=VANADIUM

"Vanadium is LIKELY SAFE in adults, if less than 1.8 mg per day is taken. At higher doses, such as those used to treat diabetes, vanadium frequently causes unwanted side effects including abdominal discomfort, diarrhea, nausea, and gas. It can also cause a greenish tongue, loss of energy, and problems with the nervous system.

Vanadium is UNSAFE when used in large amounts and for a long time. This increases the risk of serious side effects including kidney damage. <-------------- Here

Vanadium might lower blood sugar. People with diabetes should check their blood sugar carefully and watch for signs of low blood sugar (hypoglycemia).

Vanadium is LIKELY SAFE in children when taken in amounts found in foods. Don’t give children supplements. Not enough is known about the safety of these larger doses in children.

Special Precautions & Warnings:
Pregnancy and breast-feeding: If you are pregnant or breast-feeding, limit your intake of vanadium to the amount found in food. Not enough is known about the safety of taking larger doses.

Diabetes: The vanadyl sulfate form of vanadium might lower blood sugar in people with type 2 diabetes. Monitor your blood sugar carefully.

Kidney problems: There is developing evidence that vanadium might harm the kidneys. If you have kidney disease, don’t use vanadium supplements. <---------- Here"


When vanadium can cause or is a suspect of causing we are going to listen to the qualified doctors until its proven safe. Until then its not something i want introduce to people who might actually be hurt more then what we are trying to do. That is to make peoples lives better. So yes more elements means more health risks. Less is better in this case.

@nopartofme knowing that vanadium can cause problems are you willing to use it now or take the chance in using it?

 

[nopartofme]

All of that involves actually consuming vanadium. The evidence that is needed now is whether the use of grade 5 titanium in this application would cause vanadium to actually show up in the airstream, which seems unlikely, given vanadium is present in stainless steel.

One shouldn't make the jump from seeing that eating a metal is bad for you to thinking that it's going to leech into you when heated.

It's a bit like the people who see evidence that aluminum is present in post-mortem brain autopsies of individuals with alzheimer's and make the assumption that it is unsafe to cook with aluminum. There is no evidence to support that idea.

 

[THC SCIENTIFIC]

All of that involves actually consuming vanadium. The evidence that is needed now is whether the use of grade 5 titanium in this application would cause vanadium to actually show up in the airstream, which seems unlikely.

One shouldn't make the jump from seeing that eating a metal is bad for you to thinking that it's going to leech into you when heated.

It's a bit like the people who see evidence that aluminum is present in post-mortem brain autopsies of individuals with alzheimer's and make the assumption that it is unsafe to cook with aluminum. There is no evidence to support that idea.

The equal part is there is no evidence that states that vanadium is safe for you in this application. In fact none can be had without extensive research and costs of millions of dollars.


The other thing that i would do is take out the possibility of Vanadium ever causing issues. So in this case removing vanadium makes it safer because now we dont have the X factor. Not removing it will keep that X factor in the equation because we dont know weather its safe or or not. Look at it like this Vanadium ingested can cause issues, vanadium heated up causes none? Introduced in the air stream causes none?


My next question is this.

Given the Chance what would you use Grade 2 without vanadium or Grade 5 with vanadium?

If you would prefer Grade 5.

Why would you want to take the risk on non pure heating wire?



Ill repeat my self the idea is being as pure as possible. That is the only road down this industry, last few weeks we had a discussion on chromium and seemed that Titanium was the best choice, now we are doing the same thing and it seams vanadium is the best choice. People need to make up their mind.


I dont care what anyone says Ti Grade 2 is safer for one reason only lack of other elements.

 

[odogg]

Don't worry about the noise in the background. Do your thing G.

 

[thevaf]

The equal part is there is no evidence that states that vanadium is safe for you in this application. In fact none can be had without extensive research and costs of millions of dollars.


The other thing that i would do is take out the possibility of Vanadium ever causing issues. So in this case removing vanadium makes it safer because now we dont have the X factor. Not removing it will keep that X factor in the equation because we dont know weather its safe or or not. Look at it like this Vanadium ingested can cause issues, vanadium heated up causes none? Introduced in the air stream causes none?


My next question is this.

Given the Chance what would you use Grade 2 without vanadium or Grade 5 with vanadium?

If you would prefer Grade 5.

Why would you want to take the risk on non pure heating wire?



Ill repeat my self the idea is being as pure as possible. That is the only road down this industry, last few weeks we had a discussion on chromium and seemed that Titanium was the best choice, now we are doing the same thing and it seams vanadium is the best choice. People need to make up their mind.


I dont care what anyone says Ti Grade 2 is safer for one reason only lack of other elements.

I agree and as a consumer would like to reduce the number of materials in use at any given time.
I have no experience in materials science, but from what I've researched as a result of this discussion I would choose grade 2 over grade 5 based on reducing the variables, as G is stating.

The question I would ask is this:

Ti Coil (Grade 5) = $5
Ti Coil (Grade 2) = $15
Which would you buy?

Given what I know, I would pay extra. Call it what you want (parinoid, crazy), I would rather know that my material is made up of X alloy instead of XY alloy and Y being "not enough evidence of safety."


MSDS Here in case anyone wants to interpret it. Section V is what we are interested in.