The most important vaporization discussion we need to have. (Your Vape Mail)

[Hippie Dickie]

i am kind of amazed by how perfectly timed this shipping ban is for my own efforts ... i know, poor me ... after i finally get production figured out it will be impossible to ship. i get it, tobacco bad, but so is sugar. where is the sugar ban?

the problem with mislabeling the vape product is, given human nature, one sour CS issue and it's off to jail. ATF don't fuck around - they be serious people.

maybe there can be a medical device exception ... anybody want to form a medical device certification agency???

it is probably easier to make, sell and ship weapons. And sugar, for sure.

 

[Vape_Or_Die420]

Im noticing some propaganga start to turn toward cannabis vapes in recent days. This story was also reported in other media outlets but i found this one intreguing. Look at the bottom paragraph of the article for who is pushing this info. Follow the money...

Also, if it is true there is some health concerns due to vape cartrages outside of vitamin e oil we should definitely look into it more.

I am worried though that basic single studies cherry picked like this one could be bad for the fight for mailing vapes.

Vaping Weed May Be Worse for Lungs Than Smoking, Study Shows

 

[invertedisdead]

I am worried though that basic single studies cherry picked like this one could be bad for the fight for mailing vapes.

Vaping Weed May Be Worse for Lungs Than Smoking, Study Shows

It’s not the studies that are bad for our community, what’s bad are the dramatic clickbait headlines from propaganda “news” outlets like the one above, and the misinformed viewers who corroborate such stories under the confident guise of “experts” and “fact checkers.”

I read the whole article.

I clicked on the link that says “findings” - the one associated with the University of Michigan. It takes you to a page on the Journal of Adolescent Health. Without paying to view the study, it shows essentially nothing.

That’s the source cited.

Now I can’t say for sure that the author of this article didn’t pay to read the full study........... but there’s absolutely nothing presented which would convince me otherwise, either........

The only quote in the entire article was an anecdote not even from the cited study, instead an opinion from one of the studies researchers.

“Without a doubt, cigarettes and e-cigarettes are unhealthy and not good for lungs,” Boyd said in a statement on the university’s website. “However, vaping marijuana appears even worse.”

My favorite part is the end of the article where they note the publication sources conflict of interest with the topic of discussion. And yes, my use of the word propaganda above is correct.

Propaganda - information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote or publicize a particular political cause or point of view.

Michael R. Bloomberg, founder and majority owner of Bloomberg News parent Bloomberg LP, has campaigned and given money in support of a U.S. ban on flavored e-cigarettes and tobacco.

 

[Farid]

It's no surprise to me that to a layperson "vaping cannabis" refers to prefilled cartridges.

Go to any smoke shop and ask the owner how many herb vapes they sell. Then ask about how many batteries for carts they sell.

My experience talking to store owners is that a large majority of their customers who vape cannabis are using carts. Last store owner I talked to mentioned it was ~90%. Granted that was in 2018 before the vape scare, so the number may be lower today. But ∆8 carts are still wildly popular, and those weren't around back then so who knows.

Then, considering that the tainted cart scare has been used (in conjunction with "think of the children") to unjustly push against nicotine vapes, many e-cig advocates have been pushing back by pointing out that it was THC carts not nic vapes that were tainted. So explaining that vaping cannabis flower is safe is going to be a very uphill battle.

That's why I advocate for giving up the nomenclature and adopting a new term for dry herb "vaping".

 

[VapePerson]

I'm sorry, but in my mind, this is a total nothingburger. Why would aromatherapy devices be under this ban? I mean, come on now, inhalation would be using the device inconsistently with its labeling and guides. Under no circumstances would one want to use tobacco or cannabis in these aromatherapy devices, no sir. And, most importantly, NEVER should one carefully apply any parts of these devices to their lips, and pull with the lungs. They, especially, would not want to hold in the resulting offgas inside their lungs for 3 seconds, and then breathe out. Again, this would be highly inconsistent with the product labeling, of course.

 

[Planck]

Follow the money...

^^^ This right here!!! These restrictions have absolutely nothing to do with improving public health. Many State governments are as keen on destroying nicotine vapes as the tobacco industry. Nicotine vapes are reducing State revenue because vapes are very effective at reducing cigarette consumption. Additionally several states are in a bad spot because of poor investment of funds received from big tobacco under the Master Settlement Agreement

It’s not the studies that are bad for our community, what’s bad are the dramatic clickbait headlines from propaganda “news” outlets like the one above, and the misinformed viewers who corroborate such stories under the confident guise of “experts” and “fact checkers.”

^^^This right here!!! Sadly this propaganda based "news" and pop science is affecting almost every aspect of daily life now. To date there is not one legitimate peer reviewed study that has found any significant health risk from vaping nicotine. In Britain hospitals have vape shops in the building because their National Health Service has concluded the vaping is at least 95% safer than smoking tobacco.

I'm sorry, but in my mind, this is a total nothingburger.

It's odd that the thousands of people involved in the 13 billion plus dollar a year e-cig business missed your simple solution don't ya think. They are very worried, perhaps you need to do more research?

This effort to destroy e-cig vapes has been in play for years. Despite numerous warning THC and nicotine vapers continue to blame the other group for ruining it for them, not contributing to legal challenges. Lawmakers are ignorant about vaping and have no need to give a fuck. The majority of the population does not vape anything and are mostly confidante that vaping is dangerous and disgusting. Leaders can comfortablely remain ignorant and save the children.

Common attitude is who cares if some marijuana junkies die from smoking, world is a better place without them anyway. Same with cigarette smokers, vile disgusting pigs. Be responsible and only (ab)use prescription drugs.

 

[VapePerson]

"They are very worried, perhaps you need to do more research?"

It's odd that the thousands of people involved in the 13 billion plus dollar a year e-cig business missed your simple solution don't ya think. They are very worried, perhaps you need to do more research?

This effort to destroy e-cig vapes has been in play for years. Despite numerous warning THC and nicotine vapers continue to blame the other group for ruining it for them, not contributing to legal challenges. Lawmakers are ignorant about vaping and have no need to give a fuck. The majority of the population does not vape anything and are mostly confidante that vaping is dangerous and disgusting. Leaders can comfortablely remain ignorant and save the children.

Common attitude is who cares if some marijuana junkies die from smoking, world is a better place without them anyway. Same with cigarette smokers, vile disgusting pigs. Be responsible and only (ab)use prescription drugs.

"They are very worried, perhaps you need to do more research? "
Nah, I don't think I will. If you're young enough that this is your first product ban, I can see your response. I don't care what your authority X says. My attitude wouldn't surprise you if you're old enough to remember bongs being banned widespread and being sold as "art pieces," or dildos being sold as "massage devices" in Texas.

Famously, during prohibition, grape bricks were sold with instructions on what not to do to produce alcohol.

"This effort to destroy e-cig vapes has been in play for years."
Ok, and? This is a nothingburger to us.

"Lawmakers are ignorant about vaping and have no need to give a fuck."
Sir, I do not sell vapes. I sell MANUALLY-FED AROMATHERAPY DEVICES. It is inconsistent with this product's labeling to use it to vape, in the same way it is illegal to use my wonderful art pieces to pleasure yourself!

"The majority of the population does not vape anything and are mostly confidante that vaping is dangerous and disgusting. Leaders can comfortablely remain ignorant and save the children. "
Ok, and? That's not a refutation of the idea I presented.

"Common attitude is who cares if some marijuana junkies die from smoking, world is a better place without them anyway. Same with cigarette smokers, vile disgusting pigs. Be responsible and only (ab)use prescription drugs."
Please calm down the diatribe, sir.

 

[Farid]

The big difference is that the ATF was not involved in enforcing the banning of bongs or dildos. They're notorious for their rigid interpretation and implementation of the law.

To see how they will enforce this law all we have to do is look at how they enforced the PACT act prior to recent amendments adding vapes. Seeing how strongly they have cracked down on bootleg cigarettes, I dont think things will be too different in this case.

 

[howie105]

So even if they do drive the little guys out of business dedicated users will find a way. Same as it always was.

 

[Planck]

The big difference is that the ATF was not involved in enforcing the banning of bongs or dildos. They're notorious for their rigid interpretation and implementation of the law.

I agree, one other important difference is the vape/tobacco industry is a 10's of billions a year business. Bongs and dildos not even close.

Tommy Chong went to prison for bongs.
Dildo's were banned in Texas? Good grief that is hilariously stupid.

 

[VapePerson]

The big difference is that the ATF was not involved in enforcing the banning of bongs or dildos. They're notorious for their rigid interpretation and implementation of the law.

To see how they will enforce this law all we have to do is look at how they enforced the PACT act prior to recent amendments adding vapes. Seeing how strongly they have cracked down on bootleg cigarettes, I dont think things will be too different in this case.

Texas police literally raided households and arrested people over dildos until they started claiming them as art pieces in defense. During raids dildos would also be used to increase the number of charges and then enforcement became spotty. The point is, that there's always a way around it, and the DEA isn't particularly lenient. In some states you could have bongs, so long as water had never been inside (that was considered the line between art and paraphernalia). Even if it was bone dry, it was the cop's choice to take it and get it tested for resin anyway, and cops were quite fond of that choice.

I agree, one other important difference is the vape/tobacco industry is a 10's of billions a year business. Bongs and dildos not even close.

Tommy Chong went to prison for bongs.
Dildo's were banned in Texas? Good grief that is hilariously stupid.

People went to prison over bongs and dildos, it really was insane! More hilariously, anal sex was also banned, although that was only because they wanted to ban 'a man's penis touching the rectum of another man' (or some other such phrasing) but during voting the speaker of the house (IIRC) was informed that it would not be legal due to the discriminatory nature of the law, so, outright all anal sex was banned. You could call up the police, if your enemy was gay, and accuse him of sodomy. Raids happened for real and lives were ruined.

The Tommy Chong DEA story is pretty funny.

As you can see from the wording, my aromatherapy devices are perfectly legal to ship. Upon consultation of the included literature, you will find:
1. Inhalation is a violation of the warranty, improper usage, and may cause device failure. The device should slowly leak therapeutic aromatherapy offgassing. Therefore, it does not fall under definition one, "any electronic device that... delivers nicotine, flavor, or any other substance to the user inhaling from that device."
2. Not a vaporizer, and therefore not subject to 'e-cig, hookah, cigar, pen, advanced refillable vaporizer, electronic pipe, or component, liquid, part, or accessory to any of the previously described objects
Therefore, I am acting consistently with all laws and regulations.

 

[Farid]

Different laws are written with different levels of detail. The paraphernalia laws could be skirted with a "for tobacco use only" label because the wording that defines something as paraphernalia are relatively vague.

The language of the PACT act amendment specifies it applies to:

"any electronic device that, through an aerosolized solution, delivers nicotine, flavor, or any other substance to the user inhaling from the device” and “any component, liquid, part, or accessory of a device…without regard to whether the component, liquid, part, or accessory is sold separately from the device.”

This doesn't level tons of room for loose interpretation, and it's particularly broad and overarching.

Sure we have had prohibitions in the past, but that doesn't change the fact that these changes will have a detrimental effect on this industry, and are quite serious.

DIY vaporizers will always exists, in the form of sticky brick style, logs, etc. But I fear the chilling effect this will have, dissuading new companies from introducing innovative products, and hurting the public perception of these products. After all who wants to release a product when you can't even properly advertise it.

 

[VapePerson]

This doesn't level tons of room for loose interpretation, and it's particularly broad and overarching.

DIY vaporizers will always exists, in the form of sticky brick style, logs, etc. But I fear the chilling effect this will have, dissuading new companies from introducing innovative products, and hurting the public perception of these products. After all who wants to release a product when you can't even properly advertise it.

If the law is so overreaching, would "real" aromatherapy devices be banned? Why/Why not?

 

[Farid]

No. I don't know of any aromatherapy devices that have the user "Inhaling from the device". Most of the aromatherapy devices I've seen involve devices which diffuse essential oils into the air.

Only way I can see a vaporizer qualifying as an aromatherapy device is if it doesn't come with any stem/mouthpiece. So if you buy a log or an arizer solo and all it comes with is the aromatherapy dish, and no way to use it to inhale. But according to the language of the PACT act those companies would not be able to sell stems separately: "without regard to whether the component, liquid, part, or accessory is sold separately from the device.”

So you'd need to go to another company for your arizer or log stems.

 

[Endless Interim]

No. I don't know of any aromatherapy devices that have the user "Inhaling from the device". Most of the aromatherapy devices I've seen involve devices which diffuse essential oils into the air.

Only way I can see a vaporizer qualifying as an aromatherapy device is if it doesn't come with any stem/mouthpiece. So if you buy a log or an arizer solo and all it comes with is the aromatherapy dish, and no way to use it to inhale. But according to the language of the PACT act those companies would not be able to sell stems separately. So you'd need to go to another company for your arizer or log stems.

That's what a lot of places did that sold other items like switchblade knives.They would send you the knife in kit form and you had to put it together.Then once put together it was considered a knife until then it was considered ''machine parts.''

 

[VapePerson]

No. I don't know of any aromatherapy devices that have the user "Inhaling from the device". Most of the aromatherapy devices I've seen involve devices which diffuse essential oils into the air.

Only way I can see a vaporizer qualifying as an aromatherapy device is if it doesn't come with any stem/mouthpiece. So if you buy a log or an arizer solo and all it comes with is the aromatherapy dish, and no way to use it to inhale. But according to the language of the PACT act those companies would not be able to sell stems separately: "without regard to whether the component, liquid, part, or accessory is sold separately from the device.”

So you'd need to go to another company for your arizer or log stems.

1. Please read what I said. You should NOT inhale from my aromatherapy device. You should allow the device to slowly cook your aromatherapy material and offgas without putting your mouth on/near any part of the device. Modification of the device + direct inhalation of aromatherapy materials inconsistent with product labeling could be unsafe!
2. Shell companies used to hide shady behavior are a common tactic in the business world. No reason companies couldn't work with other companies/the community to sell bougie metal/wooden/plastic "straws" to be used for your 'drinks,' or silicone tubing (which has a variety of uses) that is absolutely not meant to be connected to any vaporizer product. Yes, it sucks not b
3. I think products like log vapes, or the terp torch, would be safe in any event because no sane person could suggest putting your mouthes on those. Dynavap stems like the tectonic would be fine, so long as the bowl is sold separately and from a different company. The SSV unit would be fine (don't put your mouth on that!); the bowls might be fine as artistic pieces (glassblowing is an art, after all). If any vape type could make a legitimate claim to being an aromatherapy unit, it'd be the volcano.

 

[RustyOldNail]

While many products may qualify as “aromatherapy”, you have to remember, there is a legal path that manufacturers must follow, for that official designation. The licensing and paperwork cost MONEY, big companies can absorb.

As mentioned in posts above, the vape opposition has been pounding away on this for many years now, non ECig users may not be too aware of all these anti-vaping strategies. While we ALL hope this new tactic is a NOTHING-BURGER, the shipping ban is a MAJOR offensive move, cutting off the supply line. So simple, folks can make stuff, folks can buy stuff.... just how do I obtain it? I’m not even going to speculate on “work around” etc., I’d be willing to bet, no matter how this BAN shakes out, GUARANTEED.... we the consumers, assuming product availability, will be: PAYING MORE... potentially a lot more.

Enforcement efficiency is always an issue, but like the IRS, the penalties besides jail, are HUGE fines. So while some may take the risk, disguising shipments etc., many may not want to be the EXAMPLE, if caught. Fear works well when you could never examine or open every shipped package.

 

[VapePerson]

While many products may qualify as “aromatherapy”, you have to remember, there is a legal path that manufacturers must follow, for that official designation. The licensing and paperwork cost MONEY, big companies can absorb.

As mentioned in posts above, the vape opposition has been pounding away on this for many years now, non ECig users may not be too aware of all these anti-vaping strategies. While we ALL hope this new tactic is a NOTHING-BURGER, the shipping ban is a MAJOR offensive move, cutting off the supply line. So simple, folks can make stuff, folks can buy stuff.... just how do I obtain it? I’m not even going to speculate on “work around” etc., I’d be willing to bet, no matter how this BAN shakes out, GUARANTEED.... we the consumers, assuming product availability, will be: PAYING MORE... potentially a lot more.

Enforcement efficiency is always an issue, but like the IRS, the penalties besides jail, are HUGE fines. So while some may take the risk, disguising shipments etc., many may not want to be the EXAMPLE, if caught. Fear works well when you could never examine or open every shipped package.

"The licensing and paperwork cost MONEY, big companies can absorb."
Now THAT is an argument against what I was saying. Finally. There's always a way around it; a good example comes in Keith Raniere case. He was convicted of running a ponzi scheme. What did he do after being punished? Started another scheme under the guise of religion. There's always an exception, or a way into some sort of unregulated market, such as the "machined parts" knife example, and the community has 2 choices:
1. Cuck themselves
2. Act fast and look for some legal loophole.
"As mentioned in posts above, the vape opposition has been pounding away on this for many years now"
As mentioned above: that is effectively meaningless. How long has the war on drugs been fought? Everything pounds away for years, that's how culture shifts. Look at the switchblade example, the bong example (DEA doesn't fuck around).
"Enforcement efficiency is always an issue, but like the IRS, the penalties besides jail, are HUGE fines."
As someone who's got complicated taxes to deal with due to numerous investments of all shapes and colors and sizes, I know that feel. You get into the trap of paying for your taxes with an accountant so you don't pay extra for your taxes because you screw up.

Spoiler

IRS: "Please guess how much you owe."
Me: "This much?"
IRS: "No. "

"So while some may take the risk, disguising shipments etc., many may not want to be the EXAMPLE, if caught. Fear works well when you could never examine or open every shipped package."
Piecing things out like a flowerpot / kits could be a great idea. I don't know, IANAL. You could open that, inspect it, and still not tell it's a vape, especially if it's not sold with power.

 

[RustyOldNail]

We can speculate forever.
But since I’m a bit of a pessimist, I still wonder whatever became of the Juul “Mango” flavor......

 

[Deecee]

We can speculate forever.
But since I’m a bit of a pessimist, I still wonder whatever became of the Juul “Mango” flavor......

They voluntarily removed flavors, vapers think it was because they were hoping it would set a precedent and destroy eliquid manufacturers.

Now thats just a theory, but they are owned by a giant tobacco company so there could be truth to it. If the big cannabis players would invest some money in lobbyists then we would have a better chance. Whats even worse is someday the FDA is going to set its sights on our industry because its under their purview.

When that day comes we will all be fuct because the FDA is a crooked animal and applying for product compliance could be a million dollar process per SKU. Basically all small business gets pushed out and only corpos stay in cause they can afford it.

They did the same thing to the craft soap industry, I'm fine with regulations but the cost of getting products approved are too much for the small business guy coming up.

 

[VapePerson]

We can speculate forever.

Yes, we could, and I intend to speculate until I see what happens with my own eyes.

They did the same thing to the craft soap industry, I'm fine with regulations but the cost of getting products approved are too much for the small business guy coming up.

Due to my hair I have to buy small batch soap from a family owned company in BFE, Ohio. I haven't looked outside of them in 5+ years, did something happen to soaps?

 

[Deecee]

I'm not sure, I just remember there being a crackdown on small soap makers around the time the aug 8th ecig deadline happened.

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[invertedisdead]

That's what a lot of places did that sold other items like switchblade knives.They would send you the knife in kit form and you had to put it together.Then once put together it was considered a knife until then it was considered ''machine parts.''

I mentioned this in the Fluxer thread, just like a "80% lower"

 

[MinnBobber]

The scary part is that we do not know how intense the enforcement will be. Yes, you can try and hide by calling devices aromatherapy devices etc, but if they really dig down at all this may not work.
Compare this to the US alcohol prohibition.Johnny Walker Scotch could say it is selling hand sanitizer but that might not work for very long.
It is just nasty as it could have a huge impact???

 

[florduh]

The sick part about all of this is, we're all just collateral damage. Our rulers do not really give a fuck about dry herb vaping or dabbing. I doubt they even know they're a thing. This is all about nicotine vaping. And no, it's not about saving THE CHILDREN from getting hooked on Juul's. It's about ensuring that anyone who buys an e-cig does so at a 7/11, where the proper tobacco tax can be collected. That's it. That's the big "why" here.

On the long list of tax cheats in this dumb-dumb country, people trying not to die of lung cancer rank somewhere near the very bottom. These people have brain worms.