The Extreme-Q Vaporizer

[MadScientist625]

Can you put the TC on the heating element itself? I am curious as to what readings you would get there with your thermocouple since it's my understanding that the temperature shown on the Q's display were being read from the heating elelment itself. I could be wrong, though.

no, you are correct. The manual specifically states that the readout indicates "heater core temperature". The data are counter-intuitive [Edit: not anymore!].

 

[Shiz]

Very interesting results. Makes me want to try this test myself.

 

[Pappy]

Thanks, MS! You're a man after my own heart. Anyone who reads Playboy is my kinda guy.
The temp data is also very instructive!

 

[Pappy]

Thanks, MS! You're a man after my own heart. Anyone who reads Playboy is my kinda guy.
The temp data is also very instructive!

I didn't double post this

 

[MadScientist625]

Elbow versus cyclone data. Elbow is about 10-20C cooler over the temperature range 175-230C.

 

[Pappy]

Thinking about how to interpret. Empirically I always suspected the Q's readout was more valuable as a reference point than an accurate depiction of herb vaporization temperature. Personally I'd rather it be the latter but obviously Arizer doesn't have the technology to do it. That said interpreting the digital readout is integral in mastering the Q and this method works quite well. It's really no different than figuring out the sweet spot on a DBV. You don't gotta know the temp! I've highlighted the variances in the sweet spots on the same brands of vapes for quite some time.

So I keep my Q on @ 200 and ready to go. A few minutes before I do an elbow I set it to 230 and put on an empty Cyclone bowl. 2 or 3 minutes later I insert an elbow load and drop it to 200. What temp am I vaping the herb at? The data suggests I'm dropping the temp only to see it rapidly rise up in a succession of hotter and hotter temperatures.

 

[garruk]

How do you pack the Cycone bowl: do you put the weed in the side with the black rubber or the side with the frosted glass opening? Which of the sides (rubber or frosted) do you put over the heating element and which side do you put the elbow in? Thanks.

 

[Shiz]

Pappy, I figured you elbow guys were already compensating about 15-20C. If that data is accurate then I'm glad the display is lower than the actual temps rather than higher.

How do you pack the Cycone bowl: do you put the weed in the side with the black rubber or the side with the frosted glass opening? Which of the sides (rubber or frosted) do you put over the heating element and which side do you put the elbow in? Thanks.

The rubber end is to protect you from the hot glass when handling it, That side goes up.

 

[tdavie]

How do you pack the Cycone bowl: do you put the weed in the side with the black rubber or the side with the frosted glass opening? Which of the sides (rubber or frosted) do you put over the heating element and which side do you put the elbow in? Thanks.

Frosted glass side sits on the heater, and you load the bowl on the black side (the screen should be above the midpoint of the bowl). The elbow goes on top of the black rubber side of the bowl. BTW, the black is NOT latex rubber, a fact that I had to verify for allergic reasons for GF. The black area on the bowl is so that you don't stupidly burn yourself like me

Tom

 

[mysticlaker]

It looks like 170-200 is where you want to be for q. I never have really gone below 200, but I will be doing it now. Going over 200 seems like overkill for release of most of goods.

 

[Pappy]

It looks like 170-200 is where you want to be for q. I never have really gone below 200, but I will be doing it now. Going over 200 seems like overkill for release of most of goods.

On what data do you base that conclusion?

 

[mysticlaker]

MadScientist's last graph. Even with a setpoint of 180 you've reached 230 C where the majority of vaporization for the various cannaboids has occurred based on this post. Maybe I am reading the graph wrong, but that is what it looks like to me.

http://www.fuckcombustion.com/viewtopic.php?id=4135

 

[MadScientist625]

[Edit: Note that these charts have been changed to reflect a systematic error on my part; I was using the wrong thermocouple calibration JvsK]

Good morning FC, I have more data for you...

Here I was concerned with how the fan speed affects air temperature. The conditions were T,setpoint = 200C, full-warm up, and measuring the temperature in the center of the elbow where the would normally sit. The data was collected starting with a room temperture elblow. The elbow was allowed to sit on top of the unit for 2 min before turning the fan on.

Time-series temperature versus Fan speed

Max temperature versus fan speed

The main conclusion here is that there is a significant decrease in air temperature with fan speed. Basically the heater quickly cools off and is either incapable of keeping up at high fan speeds or the temperature controller is poorly tuned. This explains why bag hits are best at F1. At F2 and F3, the air temperature cools off quickly and you're not really vaping much anymore.

The fact that the heater temperature readout on the display never moves during these run is concerning. I am inclined to believe that the controller is programmed to lie to us or the temperature readout has nothing to do with temperature (maybe just correlated to heat duty or something; i.e. 200C = 70% heat duty).

If it weren't for the warranty, I'd be inclined to dig into the unit to see what's going on in there....

 

[MadScientist625]

Thinking about how to interpret. Empirically I always suspected the Q's readout was more valuable as a reference point than an accurate depiction of herb vaporization temperature. Personally I'd rather it be the latter but obviously Arizer doesn't have the technology to do it. That said interpreting the digital readout is integral in mastering the Q and this method works quite well. It's really no different than figuring out the sweet spot on a DBV. You don't gotta know the temp! I've highlighted the variances in the sweet spots on the same brands of vapes for quite some time.

Yep. Best thing to do is just do the experiment and observe how toasted the herb is getting with the setpoints you used and optimize from there. Hopefully this data will allow people more quickly find their optimum...

So I keep my Q on @ 200 and ready to go. A few minutes before I do an elbow I set it to 230 and put on an empty Cyclone bowl. 2 or 3 minutes later I insert an elbow load and drop it to 200. What temp am I vaping the herb at? The data suggests I'm dropping the temp only to see it rapidly rise up in a succession of hotter and hotter temperatures.

The percolation/pre-heat temperature in the cyclone or elbow doesn't really vary much once the setpoint is ~200C and higher; it's about 60C on the elbow and 100C on the cyclone bowl. 2min seems to be the perfect amount of time for pre-heating.

Increasing the setpoint to 230C and then decreasing it back to 200C just before you hit is probably giving you a slightly higher temperature max than if you just left it at 200C the whole time. Again, there is some hysteresis behavior with the unit which is not surprising.

 

[Pappy]

ncreasing the setpoint to 230C and then decreasing it back to 200C just before you hit is probably giving you a slightly higher temperature max than if you just left it at 200C the whole time. Again, there is some hysteresis behavior with the unit which is not surprising.

Interesting you say that because I sometimes do that after the Q has been running all day. I should also add one must still factor in the vapability of the herb and how it's cured. Excellent work, MasScientist!

 

[mysticlaker]

The fact that the heater temperature readout on the display never moves during these run is concerning. I am inclined to believe that the controller is programmed to lie to us or the temperature readout has nothing to do with temperature (maybe just correlated to heat duty or something; i.e. 200C = 70% heat duty).

It is definitely a heat duty indication. Once set to a temp, it never moves. I imagine during your Fan experiment the "heating" light was on pretty much the whole time after the temp drops occurred.

MadScientist, what are you going to vape at?

 

[MadScientist625]

MadScientist's last graph. Even with a setpoint of 180 you've reached 230 C where the majority of vaporization for the various cannaboids has occurred based on this post. Maybe I am reading the graph wrong, but that is what it looks like to me.

http://www.fuckcombustion.com/viewtopic.php?id=4135

The low flash point of some of those compounds (CBD for example) makes me think that the temperature program should start much lower (T,setpoint = 130-140C) so you maximize vaporization of THC and CBD and minimize combustion. However, I don't know how the flashpoint was determined (did they follow a ASTM method?). More than likely, because these compounds are more dilute in our vaporizer versus the flashpoint test and therefore the flash point temperature in the vaporizer is higher...

 

[MadScientist625]

The fact that the heater temperature readout on the display never moves during these run is concerning. I am inclined to believe that the controller is programmed to lie to us or the temperature readout has nothing to do with temperature (maybe just correlated to heat duty or something; i.e. 200C = 70% heat duty).

It is definitely a heat duty indication. Once set to a temp, it never moves. I imagine during your Fan experiment the "heating" light was on pretty much the whole time after the temp drops occurred.

If T,setpoint actually is indicating heat duty then the manufacturer is lying to us in the manual. If this is true, at least it doesn't ramp up the heat duty (heater voltage) immediately to the setpoint during warmup. That will prolong the life of the heating element.

I haven't been paying much attention to the blinking red "heating" light (shame on me). Have you seen it change its behavior while using it?

MadScientist, what are you going to vape at?

I was following everyone else's advice and vaping at 200C in the elbow, which is location I'll use it 90% of the time (vap alone mainly).

[Edit: updated values to reflect updated temperature data] Based on my temperature data and the b.p. and flashpoint data, I think that I'll try doing it at 170C and then increasing it to 190C after that and then finish at 220C. It may not be much different but some of the more delicate ( low b.p. and f.p.) molecules will have a better chance at surviving at low temps and this will probably have the best efficiency.


I suggest that people do their own experiments to see if their unit is any different from mine. you can pick up a digital multimeter with a thermocouple input for $20-30. The unit I used was a $500 8-channel Omega unit .

 

[Shiz]

MadScientist, what are you going to vape at?

Based on my temperature data and the b.p. and flashpoint data, I think that I'll try doing it at 140-150C and then increasing it to 180C after that and then finish at 200C. It may not be much different but some of the more delicate ( low b.p. and f.p.) molecules will have a better chance at surviving at low temps and this will probably have the best efficiency.

Another good post. I'll try going that low that to see if I notice much difference. I've been starting at higher temps lately, ignoring the actives at lower temps and going for the big bang. It'll be interesting to see if I can gauge the difference.

 

[MadScientist625]

MadScientist, what are you going to vape at?

Based on my temperature data and the b.p. and flashpoint data, I think that I'll try doing it at 140-150C and then increasing it to 180C after that and then finish at 200C. It may not be much different but some of the more delicate ( low b.p. and f.p.) molecules will have a better chance at surviving at low temps and this will probably have the best efficiency.

Another good post. I'll try going that low that to see if I notice much difference. I've been starting at higher temps lately, ignoring the actives at lower temps and going for the big bang. It'll be interesting to see if I can gauge the difference.

Yeah, I think that you're/we're not going to see much difference. If you want to avoid the sedative effects/chemicals, based on that info, I would go lower in temps. Remember that even if you're above the flash-point of your compound of interest, you still need an ignition source and the proper concentration range in air to combust the compound. Really, what we should be concerned with is the auto-ignition temperature (the temperature at which the fuel will burn without an ignition source). Without a flame present, I'm guessing it's going to be very hard to burn most of these molecules. For example, hydrogen has an extremely low flash-point (20 K, lower than the boiling point of oxygen) and ignition energy but will only auto-ignite in air above ~475C and above 4 vol%.

Having said that, molecules may decompose/break-down (pyrolyze) rather than burn so I would stay close to the boiling point as much as possible and increase temperature in stages.

 

[Shiz]

I'm surprised I can even follow that but makes perfect sense.

Edit: I understood it before you edited to reword it more clearly for us.

 

[Pappy]

suggest that people do their own experiments to see if their unit is any different from mine. you can pick up a digital multimeter with a thermocouple input for $20-30. The unit I used was a $500 8-channel Omega unit .

Thanks to you useful data and efforts people don't have to. I'll certainly start a little lower for the sake of experimentation.

 

[MadScientist625]

FC,

I feel like an idiot . I decided to double check my measurements today using a different thermocouple; I was suspicious that the temperatures were incorrect (too high). In the process, I determined that the setting on the thermocouple reader was incorrect for all the transient experiments. I was using a j-type thermocouple and it was set for K. The temperatures can be easily corrected (multiply by 0.72); they will go down significantly.

Stay tuned.

 

[Stu]

Well, that should explain a lot. I was wondering why those temps were so off. I'm anxious to see your new findings. Keep us posted!

 

[MadScientist625]

Well, that should explain a lot. I was wondering why those temps were so off. I'm anxious to see your new findings. Keep us posted!

The data has been updated to take into account my fuck up with the thermocouple calibration. The results are much better now in terms of how well the controller is calibrated. The same transient issues are still present but we can be confident that the unit is accurately giving us air at the temperature we are requesting; at least at F1! I'm actually happy that I was wrong; makes me feel better about my purchase!