The Extreme-Q Vaporizer

[oldiebutgoodie]

I've seen all this before. We're back to the same single casual and unverified claim in a press release about a study from 2001--which says nothing about "benzene, toluene, and naphthalene getting to about 80% (compared to combustion) as you get to 226C." Those are your words and you still haven't said where you got that information.

Sorry to have left this link out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporizer_(cannabis)

The numbers were obtained at this site.

A primary source for that wikipedia article is the 2004 study I linked above. The article's reference to the compounds benzene, toluene and naphthalene is drawn from the 2001 study that pakalolo cited (and is cited also in the later 2004 study). That 2001 study used the M-1 vaporizer and found that these hydrocarbons were not present in vaporization at 185C. That study did not provide any data on hydrocarbon release above 185C. The 2004 study would appear to be the most useful to date as it tested at 218C and found a "lack of significant quantities" of hydrocarbons; it also only found those compounds in relevant amounts when using combustion, as those hydrocarbons are primarily a product of "pyrolysis". As I mentioned above, there is a dead spot not measured, the temperature range between 218C and combustion, which the study assumed to be ~230C (but I didn't see verification for that temp).

Aside from the safety question, given that CBD's flash point is 206C and the particular THC/CBD blend in the material will yield different effects; and, that CBN's flashpoint is just slightly higher at 212C with its potential negative effects, it's not surprising that the boundaries between cerebral high vs body high vs stoney high vs couch lock are not all that far apart and therefore above ~200 the experience can vary substantially depending on the material and the vaporizer. I mention this in back-reference to @exmilkder's post that began this line of discussion one page back.

 

[pakalolo]

I've seen all this before. We're back to the same single casual and unverified claim in a press release about a study from 2001--which says nothing about "benzene, toluene, and naphthalene getting to about 80% (compared to combustion) as you get to 226C." Those are your words and you still haven't said where you got that information.

Sorry to have left this link out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporizer_(cannabis)

The numbers were obtained at this site.

Yes, I've seen that before too. It still all comes back to that one single offhand and unverified claim in a press release.

The numbers weren't obtained from that Wikipedia article because it doesn't contain the information you posted. The reason I am pressing you on this point is that people come to FC because it is supposed to be the most reliable place for vaporizer information. A claim such as yours without supporting evidence undermines that objective. Your statement might be correct but I have never seen any scientific evidence to support it. That's what I'm looking for.

It's "common knowledge" that benzene starts to appear at 210C as you vaporize. (There's no reference to toluene or napthalene.) It's common because everyone relies on that single unsupported press release claim from 2001. We don't know what the method was used to measure that or what data were obtained. They say "Significant amounts of benzene began to appear at temperatures of 200 C." In the context of a science paper, "significant" is a loaded word. It means proper statistical analysis was done and the p-value obtained from the results exceeded random chance. Nothing of the sort is given. That press release is simply not a reliable source--but everyone cites it.

There's a lot of shitty information out there. FC shouldn't be adding to it.

Edited because the p & o keys are too damned close together...

Edited again to add...

I just re-read the actual study (not the press release). The statement in the study itself is:

Significant amounts of benzene, toluene, and naphthalene were observed above 200C...

That's it. Nothing about method, data, or even what temperatures they mean. That's nothing. Nil. Naught. Nada. Zilch. Zero.

 

[oldiebutgoodie]

I just re-read the actual study (not the press release). The statement in the study itself is:

Significant amounts of benzene, toluene, and naphthalene were observed above 200C...

That's it. Nothing about method, data, or even what temperatures they mean. That's nothing. Nil. Naught. Nada. Zilch. Zero.

pakalolo, the 2004 study I cited above flatly contradicts this statement in the 2001 study, i.e., nothing significant found at 218C with the implication nothing significant to be found short of combustion (pyrolysis). If you haven't looked at the 2004 study yet, might want to do so - looks like they used good instrumentation and methodology.

 

[Calad]

Hi everyone, new Extreme Q owner for about a week here. Very satisfied with my purchase so far! That said, i do have a couple questions.

I see a lot of mention of an "elbow pack" when discussing the EQ, is this where you pack into the screen that covers the attachment of what you insert into the cyclone bowl? Is this method preferred for both whip and/or bag? Should the temperature you use be higher if you pack the "elbow" (assuming my guess is correct) rather than the normal cyclone bowl?

I have only used the whip twice. It seems to be a lot of work on the lungs! Should i expect it to be this way and i will grow accustomed to it, or is there a certain technique to using the whip?

What temperature(s) do you find most effective? Does it vary between the bag and whip?

Lastly, and not exactly specific to the EQ, I have found that a large amount of residual smell is left behind is from grinding up the product. In effort of being a courteous neighbor, how much of an odor does the EQ itself produce, and what are some effective methods of preventing that. Some steps i have taken are grinding my product outside, and using a sploof on the exhale.

Thanks everyone!

 

[J.R.R.Tokin']

Hi Calad and welcome. To answer our questions:

1) Yes you are correct about the elbow pack - its filling the 'cup' gauze that's on the end of the whip end that inserts into the cyclone bowl.

2) You will get used to the slightly restricted draw, though it shouldn't be too noticeable. Make sure you are 'dropping' your herb in and not 'packing' it in. Also, don't forget the fan. You can use the fan when hitting the whip to make the draw easier.

3) Everyone has their own preference when it comes to temp. As a general rule-of-thumb the lower temps < 200c give you more of a 'high' and the higher temps > 200c more of a 'stone'. As to the variance between bag and whip - personally I use high temps generally so there isn't much difference for me. However, others on this thread that hit lower temps tend to use slightly higher temps for bags.

4) IME the grinding of the herb is a much much more smelly process then actually vaping the herb, so grinding outside and then putting into a sealed jar is a good start. Generally I find vaping leaves minimal smell that is easily cleared out by opening a window. If it is a real issue for you the are a few devices on the market to help with smells like the SmokeBuddy

Hope it helps

 

[exmilker]

Hey Calad, i too am new owner of the ExQ

i do the elbow pack method for everything from bag to whip to bong i find it to extract the herb a lot better, plus i dont have to open it and use the stir stick i just pull until im not getting any flavor or vapor.

i use to ONLY use a bong with a smokebuddy and i thought that was very effective but i had to be very careful of not letting any smoke escape or it would stink up the place, the ExQ itself while heating up with my herb inside i dont find any smell leaking from it at all, i have to be very stealthy of what i do and i use my ExQ with a spoof*sometimes* + ferbreeze spray after each session and i have not been caught yet

for smoother sativa like hits i go between 170-185c and for the lung busters indica couchlock hits i go 190-215c does not matter for bag or whip id say

 

[J.R.R.Tokin']

i do the elbow pack method for everything from bag to whip to bong i find it to extract the herb a lot better, plus i dont have to open it and use the stir stick i just pull until im not getting any flavor or vapor.

I would still stir occasionally exmilker for elbows. When you elbow pack the air current is reduced massively and is directed through the centre of the elbow load. If you look after a couple of good hits you will see a very visible 'hot-spot' ie. a much darker area right in the centre. I find stirring after ever couple of hits keeps it tasting better and browns the ABV much more evenly = better extraction imo.

 

[oldiebutgoodie]

@Calad,

Just to add a bit to the good replies you've already received . . .

Personally I don't use the elbow pack with the bag. Unless you're only doing a partial bag, you'll want more herb than fits in the elbow. Also, as J.R.R.Tokin' mentioned, there is a tendency to get a hot spot in the center of an elbow pack after 2 or 3 hits; with a bag you'll need to use Fan 3 and the cooking will not be even. IME much better to use the cyclone bowl. You'll blow the bag faster with Fan 3 but actually get a bit more dense vapor with Fan 2, stirring once or even twice.

And re the whip, yes with the elbow pack you have to pull quite a bit more. Fan 2 might help you there. Again as already said, if you pack too tight that will indeed require a really strong pull. There is also drag with that 36" whip. I only use about half that length and that helps some. And by the way, many if not most of us switch to silicone tubing, it's a lot easier to work with.

Welcome on board.

 

[exmilker]

damn i just broke my cyclone bowl and im pretty cheesed about that

just ordered a tuff bowl, silicon tubing and a elbow joint... i got the 3/16"IDx5/16OD silicon tubing from planet vape and was wondering if that was the right size?

im also looking for a water adapter for my extreme does anyone have any suggestions ?

 

[oldiebutgoodie]

damn i just broke my cyclone bowl and im pretty cheesed about that

just ordered a tuff bowl, silicon tubing and a elbow joint... i got the 3/16"IDx5/16OD silicon tubing from planet vape and was wondering if that was the right size?

im also looking for a water adapter for my extreme does anyone have any suggestions ?

You may have a problem with that tubing; it will have to be highly elastic to work at all. The stock pvc tubing is 5/16" ID x 7/16" OD. I use a silicone tubing (from Amazon, ~$30 for 25') that is the same size, and it works very well. Some here use silicone tubing which is 3/8" ID, such as SSV's.

As far as a glass water adapter, can you be more specific? What are you connecting, and what to?

 

[exmilker]

i want something like the vertigo glass hydratree, something that goes on top of the extreme preferably but i would be willing to do bubbler or bong if nothing good pops up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoBdp_xNNKI&feature=player_embedded

i love that vertigo glass hydratree and ive seen the little percs that u and add on top of ur extreme but it seems a little over priced? it cost more than what i paid for the extreme q and i defiantly do not think that simple looking glass piece is worth more than my extreme, but if theres a cool looking glass piece out there that is the same price or under the extreme i would be more than willing to add it to the set up

http://www.aqualabtechnologies.com/vaporizers/vape-accessories.html

 

[oldiebutgoodie]

i want something like the vertigo glass hydratree, something that goes on top of the extreme preferably but i would be willing to do bubbler or bong if nothing good pops up

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoBdp_xNNKI&feature=player_embedded

i love that vertigo glass hydratree and ive seen the little percs that u and add on top of ur extreme but it seems a little over priced? it cost more than what i paid for the extreme q and i defiantly do not think that simple looking glass piece is worth more than my extreme, but if theres a cool looking glass piece out there that is the same price or under the extreme i would be more than willing to add it to the set up

http://www.aqualabtechnologies.com/vaporizers/vape-accessories.html

Hmmm . . . well, to start with, with a hydratree you would need a 18/19mm male to 18/19mm male adapter because both tree's use a female joint as does the Q. And, the HT's are designed to have the intake from the bottom. I'm far from expert in the glass dept, but I don't recall having seen glass with that design elsewhere. Can you post a link to the glass you saw on top of the Q? Of course with a typical glass piece the joint is up/water down so it would have to be inverted to attach to the Q which probably wouldn't work, or you would have to turn the Q upside down with an adapter to fit to the glass (IIRC I have seen this done but can't remember where).

I think most people attach to a bubbler or bong downstem using a short whip, usually with a GonG adapter or sometimes just by pushing the end of the tubing into the downstem or in place of the downstem. That second link is a tubing adapter, so I presume you had something like this in mind. I use a Headford 11-slit inline bubbler with a small water chamber that also has a donut splash guard; very easy pull and great diffusion. And I don't use that 90 degree adapter because if you use silicone tubing it will likely droop and kink unless you support it with your hand (the stock pvc won't do that because it's pretty stiff). So I use a Q elbow on the end, adds a teeny amount of drag but solves the problem nicely. Anyway, I love the Headford, and it's much less expensive (but $50 more than when I bought it) than most nice glass. It's here:

http://www.aqualabtechnologies.com/...ord-glass-inline-triple-doughnut-bubbler.html

Send that link of glass on top of the Q, and we'll take a look at it.

 

[pakalolo]

damn i just broke my cyclone bowl and im pretty cheesed about that

just ordered a tuff bowl, silicon tubing and a elbow joint... i got the 3/16"IDx5/16OD silicon tubing from planet vape and was wondering if that was the right size?

im also looking for a water adapter for my extreme does anyone have any suggestions ?

I've broken two cyclone bowls. I had an elbow freeze inside one and both broke trying to get them apart. The other one I broke just by dropping it. The interesting thing is that it was a tuff bowl.

Two things about tuff bowls: one, they look uglier than sin, and two, the silicon dries out from the heat and will eventually start to crack. Pieces start to fall off and it looks even uglier, although you wouldn't think that's possible.

 

[exmilker]

went out and got a 4 arm tree prec bubbler today and connected it to my extreme, freaking awsome!! was just wondering what temp do u guys set it at with a bubbler attached? and are u guys able to achieve an almost milk out of it? i have seen some videos and dont seem to be able to get the same dense vapor as some others, im currently using the elbow pack method with the whip attached to the bag elbow at 190c.

while i was out i was able to check out the tuff bowl for the extreme q and i was a little disappointed, it was like a loosely fitted silicon sleeve over the the original cyclone bowl, if i do end up breaking this "tuff" bowl i dont think im going to be getting another one but we'll see how "tuff" it really is so hopefully it break on me.

 

[J.R.R.Tokin']

I can definitely white-out with the EQ using an elbow pack at 200c (not sure about 190c but am pretty sure but not at home to test). A few things maybe to consider are: Up your temp a bit to 200c, make sure your herb is very dry, that it is good quality and make sure you are packing the elbow lightly. It should be very dry if you want to maximise vapor, so maybe try leaving it out overnight Oh, and don't forget to stir every few hits.

 

[oldiebutgoodie]

went out and got a 4 arm tree prec bubbler today and connected it to my extreme, freaking awsome!! was just wondering what temp do u guys set it at with a bubbler attached? and are u guys able to achieve an almost milk out of it? i have seen some videos and dont seem to be able to get the same dense vapor as some others, im currently using the elbow pack method with the whip attached to the bag elbow at 190c.

+1 on J.R.R.Tokin's reply. I first heat the cyclone for at least 20 minutes with the elbow attached so that heat has totally permeated all the glass. I also grind about a gram at a time and keep it in a Space Case. You want it completely dry but not dried out. A shorter whip can help with the pull. And don't put any more water in the bubbler than is required for diffusion. Depending on the glass, sometimes you need to take a couple of short pulls first - sort of like puffing on a cigar - to work the vapor up through the whip and into the chamber, and then you can go for your big pull. I don't use the elbow pack, and I still get dense vapor. Since there are differences in herb, you might try 200C but first I suggest you get your routine down. Practice makes perfect.

Glad you're enjoying your Q.

 

[exmilker]

awesome im loving it, the only downfall to the Q is that it takes little long to heat up, but after that everything is good thanks for the tip about "don't put any more water in the bubbler than is required for diffusion" i had a little too much water in there *first bubbler* and had a hard time trying to fill it with vapor lol and 200C works great that seems to be the temp to use if a water device is attached.

i like the elbow pack method a lot because its clean, i hear you guys saying to stir it up after a hit or two but i find it hard to stir after even one hit as it wont stay packed in the elbow as easily and fall out. i don't mind filling the cyclone bowl, i just find small little burnt bits on the ceramic and a lot of resin stick to the screen after so often do u guys usually clean your cyclone bowl? if that is your main way of using your Q?

 

[oldiebutgoodie]

awesome im loving it, the only downfall to the Q is that it takes little long to heat up, but after that everything is good thanks for the tip about "don't put any more water in the bubbler than is required for diffusion" i had a little too much water in there *first bubbler* and had a hard time trying to fill it with vapor lol and 200C works great that seems to be the temp to use if a water device is attached.

i like the elbow pack method a lot because its clean, i hear you guys saying to stir it up after a hit or two but i find it hard to stir after even one hit as it wont stay packed in the elbow as easily and fall out. i don't mind filling the cyclone bowl, i just find small little burnt bits on the ceramic and a lot of resin stick to the screen after so often do u guys usually clean your cyclone bowl? if that is your main way of using your Q?

Sounds like you're making progress.

Probably the primary reason I don't use the elbow pack is that it's more work than I want. It can't be packed too tightly. And there is a tendency to get a hot spot, therefore the advice to stir it. Which essentially means some of the materials will probably fall out of the elbow and needs to be tapped back in. IIRC there are users who put some herb in the cyclone bowl along with doing the elbow pack. I tried that and it did seem to diffuse the air flow a bit better and allow for a smaller elbow pack/less stirring, but for me it just wasn't worth all the work. Now here's a point that J.R.R.Tokin' made previously that might be good to re-emphasize: Good quality material. I would probably say, very good quality. If your session can be done in 4 hits because of your herb's potency, then the extra work for the elbow pack may be worth it. I don't live in SF anymore; I don't have access to really high quality or different strains. I just have basically good stuff. So I just use the cyclone. This is an important factor.

So about the leavings from the cyclone bowl . . . try this: Shape the screen concave (like a dome), push it sideways into the cyclone (I use tweezers), and then position it dome side up (i.e., edges down) with the stir stick. It will take a few tries to get the shape just right, but when you get there you'll have a nice snug fit of the screen. (You'll also elevate the herb a bit, which adds to the air circulation). This method prevents material from getting around the screen down to the element. I do get a very small amount of very small bits of material that get through the screen and remain only on top of the element after a session. All that's necessary is to lift the bowl, till the Q a little, and blow the tiny remnants off. Or, use a can of compressed air; that's what I do, just a quick blast. One can lasts forever. If you make the screen adjustment and are getting material remnants down into the unit around the element, then you are possibly grinding too fine. As far as resin in the screen, I've never seen that. Maybe just the nature of your material vs the nature of mine. Just for good housekeeping every week I pull the screen out with my tweezers and blow it out with the compressed air, although I rarely see anything in it. And occasionally I'll toss the screen into the little ISO bath I use for cleaning the elbows, again just for cleanliness sake but I don't see noticeable resin. If it's the nature of your material then I would expect resin to be quickly forming in the glass elbow and in the tubing.

 

[J.R.R.Tokin']

Nice to see you got the water working exmilker.

On the elbow pack. My main reason for elbows is that it takes less herb to fill an elbow then the cyclone (of course you don't have to fill the cyclone). It's a set size so I know what my consumption is based on the number of elbows I do. Plus the concentration of the air makes for 'richer' hits imo.

To stir the elbow: I use a thin metal rod, not the glass stir tool provided as I find it too fat for the elbow, though perfect for the cyclone. I let the elbow cool till I can hold it in my palm - about 15 seconds - holding it in my palm, with the tube running along my ring finger, I make a small 'eye' shape with my thumb and index finger. The 'eye' is over the herbs basically extending the cup-gauze walls. Then I stick in the rod and have a quick stir and repack with a light tamp. The 'eye' wall prevents any spillage and waste. If that didn't make sense tell me and I'll draw a diagram or something )

About cleaning your equipment. Once your comfortable with vaping, have adjusted to the new levels of thc cbd/n intake and have the feel of your machine I think taste will become a more important factor for you, it was for me. Clean equipment = clean taste. My bong gets cleaned daily. Elbows, screens, cyclone weekly. Like OBG I use ISO soaks and then I give an extra wash with normal washing up liquid followed by a good rinse.

You'll find what works for you though and it's a fun ride working it out

 

[exmilker]

great tips guys thanks a lot hahaha its been sure fun experimenting with my Q.

no need for a diagram J.R.R.tokin' you explained it perfectly it was the next best thing to watching a video LOL as for adjusting to new levels of thc/cbd, is that why i feel like i have more energy than usual from what i did before? lol before i would take couple bong rips and just sit down for a movie now i take a couple vapor shots and im hitting the gym or cleaning my room after? LOL is that just the vapors way of getting u medicated... as in it will never be the same as a bong rip ever again..?

when cleaning your whips is there a way to reclaim the oils trapped inside ? is it just as simple as dissolving the oil in the ISO and then leaving it out for the ISO to evaporate?

 

[Seek]

exmilker: I have done some extractions from the elbow already. This is what I do:

1) Take out the dome screen (and the pvc tube optional)
2) Fill the elbow with a bit of iso (approx cm^3 of it) and let it dissolve. Because of it's hape, you can keep enough ammount of iso it it and even shake it a little. Also stirring the oils helps to dissolve faster.
3) Dump the browned iso into oil container and let it evaporate for a few days. Warm helps.
4) If the elbow still has oil in it, repeat from 2)
5) Run hot water through it to make is clean as new after extraction is complete.

I think with this method i use minimal ammount of iso. I don't reclaim from cyclone bowl as the only part of it where some oils condensate (herb chamber) is not pure. So i clean this only by finger.

 

[oldiebutgoodie]

. . . as for adjusting to new levels of thc/cbd, is that why i feel like i have more energy than usual from what i did before? lol before i would take couple bong rips and just sit down for a movie now i take a couple vapor shots and im hitting the gym or cleaning my room after? LOL is that just the vapors way of getting u medicated... as in it will never be the same as a bong rip ever again..?

Short answer: Yes.

Long answer: One different thing is definitely happening, and probably two. The definite thing is that with combustion, all of the canniboids are instantly and simultaneously consumed, so along with the THC you are hit with the full combined effects of the CBD and CBN. It varies by strain of course, but that is what brings on not just the stoned but even messed up feeling. Additionally, combustion produces a process called pyrolysis which converts the solids into a wide variety of compounds such as benzenes. These chemicals also influence the experience.

The probable thing is in ref to what was discussed a couple pages back. In the context of just vaporizing, the temperature will influence the experience. CBD vaporizes at ~205C and CBN at ~215C. Generally speaking when you transition from the THC range into the CBD range you are transitioning from head high to body high. Increasing the temperature through the CBN range takes one into getting heavily stoned if not totally ripped off your butt. It's for these reasons that experienced vape users find their temperature "sweet spot" and often use several different temps depending on what they want to do, e.g., a quick get-up-and-go lift vs a have-a-relaxed-evening feel vs a help-me-go-to-sleep effect. The temp a vaporizer displays is not a precisely accurate reading of the actual air temp moving through the herb, so it takes some experimentation to dial in to exactly where you want to be.

You can get very close to the same effect as combustion with a bong if you take the temp up to ~215-230C and use a concentrated method like the elbow pack. It won't be exactly the same though, because all those compounds created by pyrolysis won't be there - which is very good, assuming you don't like carcinogens.

 

[exmilker]

Short answer: Yes.

CBD vaporizes at ~205C and CBN at ~215C. Generally speaking when you transition from the THC range into the CBD range you are transitioning from head high to body high. Increasing the temperature through the CBN range takes one into getting heavily stoned if not totally ripped off your butt. It's for these reasons that experienced vape users find their temperature "sweet spot" and often use several different temps depending on what they want to do, e.g., a quick get-up-and-go lift vs a have-a-relaxed-evening feel vs a help-me-go-to-sleep effect. The temp a vaporizer displays is not a precisely accurate reading of the actual air temp moving through the herb, so it takes some experimentation to dial in to exactly where you want to be.

Thanks for the great tips OBG ive been vaporing @ under 200C, so now im going to experiment at higher levels to see if i can find my "sweet spot" lol

You may have a problem with that tubing; it will have to be highly elastic to work at all.

i can confirm that the 3/16"IDx5/16OD silicon tubing from planet vape will fit on your elbow... its a really snug fit but hey it fits wonder if the thinner tube will affect how it hits will keep you updated

 

[pakalolo]

The definite thing is that with combustion, all of the canniboids are instantly and simultaneously consumed, so along with the THC you are hit with the full combined effects of the CBD and CBN.

That was a thorough and useful post, but I will be pedantic on the point quoted above: not all of the compounds are instantly and simultaneously consumed, because combustion destroys some of them.

 

[WatTyler]

how do you define all? of which cannabinoids?

I think the OP holds true in that the full spectrum that is consumed is consumed simultaneously.
It's surely arguable that all which are released are consumed instantly and simultaneously, which is independent of how many got destroyed during the method of release from the plant. On the other hand, the spectrum of vapeables consumed is a lot more variable and much less simultaneous throughout the vaping of the bowl. Just to be equally pedantic.