Ricardo
Well-Known Member
OutChinesing the Chinese
Reckon you can outprice them?
The Chinese SJK Induction Heater and The VapCap
- Thread starter Hackerman
- Start date
Reckon you can outprice them?IDK enough about it but @Hackerman posted a relevant page here:
http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/t...ater-and-the-vapcap.29630/page-2#post-1280050
You need an apprentice, they are good for jobs like that.
Hackerman
User
My second one will be here Monday. It's funny, I noticed on the picture of the one I ordered says, SJK TECHNIC USA" instead of "SJK TECHNIC CHINA". I'm sure it's still made in China. Probably a way to signify it as 110v vs the 220v for the rest of the world.
Either way, it will be inside out by Monday night. LOL
Either way, it will be inside out by Monday night. LOL
-dab8-
Dyna-saur
Excited to hear your report! Mine will probably be a while. Ordered off eBay and shipping from China. $44.50 though. Wish I could find a similar price locally.
Hackerman
User
I bought mine on Amazon and it was $60 so it boils down that I paid 15 bux for Prime delivery. I was going to order from Chine but I am so 'high impulse' that I could never wait that long. LOL I do order stuff from China sometimes. As long as it's something I don't really want and I usually forget about it and it ends up being a nice surprise when it arrives. LOL
I saw cases of 24 pretty cheap. LOL Not sure my OCD is bad enough to buy 24 of them. LOL
I saw cases of 24 pretty cheap. LOL Not sure my OCD is bad enough to buy 24 of them. LOL
@Hackerman Please also let us know if the internals of the "USA" version are different from the "CHINA" version, as well as how the power cable is terminated. I got mine on Amazon, says CHINA, and the power cable is non-american, no ground, and included a very loose-fitting international adapter. It works fine but it's definitely not legal or safe.
Hackerman
User
Just tossing this out, FYI.
All my tips are Ti except for the one that came on my M18 so the one I use 99% with this induction heater is also Ti. Tonight, I thought I would test the stainless steel tip that came with my M18 and see how well it works with this heater.
I wanted to get the tests as close to the Ti tests and I wanted another glass want so the tests would be more close to equal. Darn, DDave is out of the long water wands. Well, looked though my drawers and found these one hitters that fit the VapCap tip perfectly. So, I popped the stainless tip off my M18 and put it into this glass mouthpiece.
On a side note, these are 6 for $8 on eBay and Amazon.
I found the stainless tip to heat a little slower in the induction heater than the Ti tip. I believe that is also true when heating with a torch. When heated from a cold cap to the second click, the vapor was weak and very pinene tasting. A nice hit but not the blast you usually get from a VapCap. From a cold cap, heating it a second or so after the click gives a full hit.
The hits were a little 'smoother' than with the Ti tip.
The tip seemed to cool faster as I only got 1 or 2 hits per heating session vs 2 or 3 with the TI. Even when the Stainless was heated a little tiny bit past the click to reach full heat, it still seemed to cool faster than the Ti, which, I believe, is contrary to the torch.
Once the cap was warm, the heater had no problem bring it to second click well before it timed out.
When I do the second heating with my Ti tip, I don't wait for the cool down click. I insert the tip for about a second and that's usually enough for 2 more hits. Then, back in for a second and 2 more hits. With the stainless tip, the second heating was closer to 2 seconds. Maybe even 2.x seconds. Not 3. Still, obviously longer than the Ti.
So, in conclusion, the Ti tip seems to work better in this induction heater than the stainless tip, although both of them work just fine.
All my tips are Ti except for the one that came on my M18 so the one I use 99% with this induction heater is also Ti. Tonight, I thought I would test the stainless steel tip that came with my M18 and see how well it works with this heater.
I wanted to get the tests as close to the Ti tests and I wanted another glass want so the tests would be more close to equal. Darn, DDave is out of the long water wands. Well, looked though my drawers and found these one hitters that fit the VapCap tip perfectly. So, I popped the stainless tip off my M18 and put it into this glass mouthpiece.
On a side note, these are 6 for $8 on eBay and Amazon.
I found the stainless tip to heat a little slower in the induction heater than the Ti tip. I believe that is also true when heating with a torch. When heated from a cold cap to the second click, the vapor was weak and very pinene tasting. A nice hit but not the blast you usually get from a VapCap. From a cold cap, heating it a second or so after the click gives a full hit.
The hits were a little 'smoother' than with the Ti tip.
The tip seemed to cool faster as I only got 1 or 2 hits per heating session vs 2 or 3 with the TI. Even when the Stainless was heated a little tiny bit past the click to reach full heat, it still seemed to cool faster than the Ti, which, I believe, is contrary to the torch.
Once the cap was warm, the heater had no problem bring it to second click well before it timed out.
When I do the second heating with my Ti tip, I don't wait for the cool down click. I insert the tip for about a second and that's usually enough for 2 more hits. Then, back in for a second and 2 more hits. With the stainless tip, the second heating was closer to 2 seconds. Maybe even 2.x seconds. Not 3. Still, obviously longer than the Ti.
So, in conclusion, the Ti tip seems to work better in this induction heater than the stainless tip, although both of them work just fine.
Andreaerdna
If God is the answer, then the question is wrong
Some considerations about induction heater and vapcap (after using the same module Pipes shared in DIY for many months)
The cap is the same for every models and it is magnetic steel. I believe it is the part that get most of the heat from induction. It then transfers heat to the tip (kind of like with torch)
Tip without cap get directly heated by induction, but in a much slower rate (both Ti and SS), not even close to vaping temp (i tryied and IIRC just warm/hot, not burning hot)
stainless tip has remarcable bigger mass. IME it reaches lower temperatures than TI (it always needs more cycles to vape the load) even with a second more than Ti
Also (besides difference in mass) TI heat conduction is better than SS so it should heat up the load (and cold it down) faster
Thank you for this discovery @Hackerman this china model seems more travel friendly in a non legalized environment than my DIY one wich screams for attention and I will never bring it wit me on a plane
The cap is the same for every models and it is magnetic steel. I believe it is the part that get most of the heat from induction. It then transfers heat to the tip (kind of like with torch)
Tip without cap get directly heated by induction, but in a much slower rate (both Ti and SS), not even close to vaping temp (i tryied and IIRC just warm/hot, not burning hot)
stainless tip has remarcable bigger mass. IME it reaches lower temperatures than TI (it always needs more cycles to vape the load) even with a second more than Ti
Also (besides difference in mass) TI heat conduction is better than SS so it should heat up the load (and cold it down) faster
Thank you for this discovery @Hackerman this china model seems more travel friendly in a non legalized environment than my DIY one wich screams for attention and I will never bring it wit me on a plane
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Diggy Smalls
Notorious
It almost sounds like it's heating the tip through the cap? What do I know, but I found this thread fascinating to catch up on.
Carry on,
Carry on,
Andreaerdna
If God is the answer, then the question is wrong
I believe you are correct, at least from my very superficial POV (no temp probe involved)It almost sounds like it's heating the tip through the cap? What do I know, but I found this thread fascinating to catch up on.
Carry on,
Hackerman
User
Guys, I have said this a million times.... heat the tip WITHOUT the cap and you will see they get too hot to touch in just seconds. It's not just the cap that's heating. It's the entire tip.
Try it and see.
This is the exact same technology that Pipes uses and no one seems to think his just heats the cap?????
Don't mean to keep pounding on this but it seems like no one sees my posts about this. LOL
Here is the guy I bought mine from but it looks like he is out of stock... https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Pcs-TM-G...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
A search of "glass chillum" will provide hundreds of results.
Try it and see.
This is the exact same technology that Pipes uses and no one seems to think his just heats the cap?????
Don't mean to keep pounding on this but it seems like no one sees my posts about this. LOL
Here is the guy I bought mine from but it looks like he is out of stock... https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Pcs-TM-G...e=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
A search of "glass chillum" will provide hundreds of results.
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Andreaerdna
If God is the answer, then the question is wrong
@Hackerman i stand corrected: i just tryied to heat as long as to make the cap click (12 secs in my configuration) and the stainless tip gets very hot indeed (have only a M under hand)
Touching the cap or the tip alone with wet hands makes water on fingers evaporates instantly (ptshhh sound )
This being said i would like to see actual probe temperature readings as in theory magnetic steel should be more reactive to induction than titanium or non magnetic stainless steel but my memories are fading on this matter and i could be wrong (again)
Have you a guess why Ti transfers more heat to the load than SS tip?
Touching the cap or the tip alone with wet hands makes water on fingers evaporates instantly (ptshhh sound
)This being said i would like to see actual probe temperature readings as in theory magnetic steel should be more reactive to induction than titanium or non magnetic stainless steel but my memories are fading on this matter and i could be wrong (again)
Have you a guess why Ti transfers more heat to the load than SS tip?
Hackerman
User
I believe it's been said in the VapCap thread that Ti heats faster and cools faster than Stainless even with a torch.
As to how and why the induction heater reacts with different metals is yet to be learned (by me). I'm sure there's some reading on it. I'll find it and read it.
I got my new heater today and started taking it apart.
Here are a couple shots to help reverse the circuit. First is the top and bottom. I flipped the circuit boat pic so it's actual, not reversed, of the picture of the top. You'll see that easily at the chips and the diodes for the incoming power.
The second shot is against a backlight so you can see some of the circuits.
First goal with this heater is to see if it's an easy task to convert it from 110v to 12v. If so, I have my car unit.
Enjoy....
As to how and why the induction heater reacts with different metals is yet to be learned (by me). I'm sure there's some reading on it. I'll find it and read it.
I got my new heater today and started taking it apart.
Here are a couple shots to help reverse the circuit. First is the top and bottom. I flipped the circuit boat pic so it's actual, not reversed, of the picture of the top. You'll see that easily at the chips and the diodes for the incoming power.
The second shot is against a backlight so you can see some of the circuits.
First goal with this heater is to see if it's an easy task to convert it from 110v to 12v. If so, I have my car unit.
Enjoy....
Egzoset
Banned
Salutations Hackerman,
That's a familiar feeling to me, since 2010.
Easy perhaps, but that would be inefficient use of mobile energy.
The mains A.C. 115 Volts power is being directly "rectified" to implement a D.C. High-Voltage supply for some inexpensive power stage - hence lets confirm large capacitor voltage rating to get an idea how dangerous this can be!...
There's a secondary power rectifier stage apparently driving low-voltage electronics, via a 3-pin regulator chip, so maybe part of it can be re-used in a mobile application, just not the power stage unless you won't mind for lossy daisy-chaining of ready-made solutions.
As a table unit this device may conveniently inject sufficient IH drive, for example 135 W x 85 % ~ 115 W, which should manage to rise the temperature of a 0.75 g susceptor by 150 degrees Celcius within a second.
Too bad alloys can't be evaluated as a function of frequency. Enjoy having fun LEGO style anyway!
...
Good day, have fun!!
That's a familiar feeling to me, since 2010.
Easy perhaps, but that would be inefficient use of mobile energy.
The mains A.C. 115 Volts power is being directly "rectified" to implement a D.C. High-Voltage supply for some inexpensive power stage - hence lets confirm large capacitor voltage rating to get an idea how dangerous this can be!...
There's a secondary power rectifier stage apparently driving low-voltage electronics, via a 3-pin regulator chip, so maybe part of it can be re-used in a mobile application, just not the power stage unless you won't mind for lossy daisy-chaining of ready-made solutions.
As a table unit this device may conveniently inject sufficient IH drive, for example 135 W x 85 % ~ 115 W, which should manage to rise the temperature of a 0.75 g susceptor by 150 degrees Celcius within a second.
Too bad alloys can't be evaluated as a function of frequency. Enjoy having fun LEGO style anyway!
...
Good day, have fun!!
Hackerman
User
Datasheet for the switches... https://img.ozdisan.com/ETicaret_Dosya/445413_4369639.pdf
@Egzoset I can't find a manufacturer on that 14 pin chip next to the induction circuit. The logo, if you can't see it, is the letter K with an ellipse around it. I can't find that manufacturer anywhere (and, therefore no chip ID). I'll see if I can get a shot of the logo.
@Egzoset I can't find a manufacturer on that 14 pin chip next to the induction circuit. The logo, if you can't see it, is the letter K with an ellipse around it. I can't find that manufacturer anywhere (and, therefore no chip ID). I'll see if I can get a shot of the logo.
-dab8-
Dyna-saur
You have made a believer out of me. A confused believer, but a believer.
Egzoset
Banned
Hi again Hackerman,
Actually the high-voltage capacitor is marked 450 Volts and this is from your initial post, HackerMan.
Well ain't it starting to sound redundant after multiple hints have been provided which still fail to evoke any rational echo somehow??
Here's one more. Some manufacturers will manage to carve an image for their future product even before everything can be made ready to fit inside - even after a 4-yr wait rewarded by some pizza selfie in Italy...
Too little too late, meanwhile i developed my own fully functional "Plan-B" design and its 17-Holes metal Disc practically doubles as a susceptor candidate for concurrent IH-driven mode. But i'd have to explain "Micro-Bursting" and this might manage to delay duplication + peer reviews until 2026 and beyond...
One basic fact is that the SiC/SS/SiC Hybrid Core dimensions for a (11.7 ~ 13.6 mm dia.) VG path are 3.0 ~ 3.1 mm thick, 1.0 mm thick, 2.4 ~ 2.5 mm thick; take note i'd recommend dropping the Brass Screen during preliminary IH tests. In any case the "Sweet Spot" layout was found through patient trial & error while acquiring necessary operator skills in the process, which was an experiment started in 2013.
No need for NASA rocket science, time worked for me as my customized VG pipe did allow evaluation of an eventual sceptor weight nonetheless:
Not a single book to open. All served in a silver spoon...
That's an inverse strategy focused on core issues 1st, literally. Which is why power budget should rank high on top of any serious portable planning in order to avoid non-realistic fishy mirages that started and concluded as a fancy/expensive e-Cig venture, for example.
My LAVA concept is a KILLER "shortest path of lesser transformation" solution to many aspects which seem to inspire rejection by people who never experienced it (or were instructed Not To by a same set of brave obstructors determined to generate "noise", including via Private Messages).
Too bad there's no handheld USB microscope around! Lets admit i often depend on photographic captures myself in order to assist a weakening vision...
No joy there but why bother anyway, as i'd simply suggest to refurbish the casing so it can house Pipe's solution and run off a car's 12 Volts D.C. plug instead. It does come with Litz wire and even a secondary coil with its well-documented (and DiP-socketed!...) inductive presence detector, apparently. Why not just find out the operating frequency those are tuned to then see how it can be stuffed with a low-voltage equivalent. Then SkunkPort may eventually come to feel as if a power budget ain't such a bad idea when contemplating the use of batteries after all.
Good day, have fun!!
Actually the high-voltage capacitor is marked 450 Volts and this is from your initial post, HackerMan.
Well ain't it starting to sound redundant after multiple hints have been provided which still fail to evoke any rational echo somehow??
Here's one more. Some manufacturers will manage to carve an image for their future product even before everything can be made ready to fit inside - even after a 4-yr wait rewarded by some pizza selfie in Italy...
Too little too late, meanwhile i developed my own fully functional "Plan-B" design and its 17-Holes metal Disc practically doubles as a susceptor candidate for concurrent IH-driven mode. But i'd have to explain "Micro-Bursting" and this might manage to delay duplication + peer reviews until 2026 and beyond...
One basic fact is that the SiC/SS/SiC Hybrid Core dimensions for a (11.7 ~ 13.6 mm dia.) VG path are 3.0 ~ 3.1 mm thick, 1.0 mm thick, 2.4 ~ 2.5 mm thick; take note i'd recommend dropping the Brass Screen during preliminary IH tests. In any case the "Sweet Spot" layout was found through patient trial & error while acquiring necessary operator skills in the process, which was an experiment started in 2013.
No need for NASA rocket science, time worked for me as my customized VG pipe did allow evaluation of an eventual sceptor weight nonetheless:
Not a single book to open. All served in a silver spoon...
That's an inverse strategy focused on core issues 1st, literally. Which is why power budget should rank high on top of any serious portable planning in order to avoid non-realistic fishy mirages that started and concluded as a fancy/expensive e-Cig venture, for example.
My LAVA concept is a KILLER "shortest path of lesser transformation" solution to many aspects which seem to inspire rejection by people who never experienced it (or were instructed Not To by a same set of brave obstructors determined to generate "noise", including via Private Messages).
Too bad there's no handheld USB microscope around! Lets admit i often depend on photographic captures myself in order to assist a weakening vision...
No joy there but why bother anyway, as i'd simply suggest to refurbish the casing so it can house Pipe's solution and run off a car's 12 Volts D.C. plug instead. It does come with Litz wire and even a secondary coil with its well-documented (and DiP-socketed!...) inductive presence detector, apparently. Why not just find out the operating frequency those are tuned to then see how it can be stuffed with a low-voltage equivalent. Then SkunkPort may eventually come to feel as if a power budget ain't such a bad idea when contemplating the use of batteries after all.
Good day, have fun!!
To use in your car, no soldering needed;
Any 140w or larger inverter will work. I can only quote this wattage because I have just been using my 140w Powertech Modified Sine Wave Can Inverter (the cheap kind, about $30) with the IH for the last hour and about 10 loads or 40 heat cycles to the point I could hardly hold the carb cap hole on my M18 because of heat. The inverter and the IH were still cool to the touch.
I already had the inverter for using my S&B Plenty while camping. If I was buying again, I would pay a bit extra and get a Pure Sine Wave inverter as the unit I have is not supposed to be used with sensitive electronic equipment, I might get one eventually. I only got the one I did as I was hoping it would make the Plenty run hotter being modified sine wave, it didn`t.
Any 140w or larger inverter will work. I can only quote this wattage because I have just been using my 140w Powertech Modified Sine Wave Can Inverter (the cheap kind, about $30) with the IH for the last hour and about 10 loads or 40 heat cycles to the point I could hardly hold the carb cap hole on my M18 because of heat. The inverter and the IH were still cool to the touch.
I already had the inverter for using my S&B Plenty while camping. If I was buying again, I would pay a bit extra and get a Pure Sine Wave inverter as the unit I have is not supposed to be used with sensitive electronic equipment, I might get one eventually. I only got the one I did as I was hoping it would make the Plenty run hotter being modified sine wave, it didn`t.
Hackerman
User
@LesPlenty Yeah, I thought about an inverter but I wasn't sure how it would work. SOunds like it works fine.
@Egzoset here is the pic of that chip. Do you recognize that logo. I have searched far and wide and can't ID this chip...
@Egzoset here is the pic of that chip. Do you recognize that logo. I have searched far and wide and can't ID this chip...
Egzoset
Banned
Hi again Hackerman,
Thanks, now we can read the markings on it:
KW12 KB703700143BBC1
No and neither does Google Images after some fair try:
Not even after enhancing this logo's main features actually...
Which only inspires more questions, like what sort of DiP-14 chip has its power pins on #7 and #8 (near decoupling capacitors C7 & C8), for example? Or ain't that driving a tri-colour front LED (via R6/R7), besides relay AQ2 (via R9 + Q1)? Then what's the other unidentified chip on the solder side, between the yellow low-voltage transformer and C17, which eventually connects to an opto-coupler, probably for the purpose of 60 Hz clock extraction, while still relying on a High-Voltage power stage...
The good news to me would be that it may be simple to interface Pipe's battery-operated module though relay control (though i got no idea what's the other relay for, so far), but then we've also got to wonder why it might still require 60 Hz mains synchronization in a future/hypothetic portable context anyway - or is it only monitoring the presence of A.C. to begin with?? Which i'd find just as bad...
Sorry but my impression at the moment is that a full schematic won't prove comforting if the design is effectively A.C. based this much.
Good day, have fun!!
Thanks, now we can read the markings on it:
KW12 KB703700143BBC1
No and neither does Google Images after some fair try:
Not even after enhancing this logo's main features actually...
Which only inspires more questions, like what sort of DiP-14 chip has its power pins on #7 and #8 (near decoupling capacitors C7 & C8), for example? Or ain't that driving a tri-colour front LED (via R6/R7), besides relay AQ2 (via R9 + Q1)? Then what's the other unidentified chip on the solder side, between the yellow low-voltage transformer and C17, which eventually connects to an opto-coupler, probably for the purpose of 60 Hz clock extraction, while still relying on a High-Voltage power stage...
The good news to me would be that it may be simple to interface Pipe's battery-operated module though relay control (though i got no idea what's the other relay for, so far), but then we've also got to wonder why it might still require 60 Hz mains synchronization in a future/hypothetic portable context anyway - or is it only monitoring the presence of A.C. to begin with?? Which i'd find just as bad...
Sorry but my impression at the moment is that a full schematic won't prove comforting if the design is effectively A.C. based this much.
Good day, have fun!!
Hackerman
User
The chip in the solder side is a THX208. It's the PWM controller that switches the ac/dc power conversion.
http://www.datasheetcafe.com/thx208-datasheet-pdf-pwm-controller-thx/
I still have not had time to reverse the circuit but it looks like AC feeds that giant cap and also the actual heater. The 5v stuff is the detection switch and some other stuff.
Beautiful day today. Heading back out on the bike for another ride.
EDIT: Quick look before I headed out and it looks like that 14 pin IC is just controlling the little cooling fan. Possibly based upon input from the other IC (the one with the smd replacing the dip).
http://www.datasheetcafe.com/thx208-datasheet-pdf-pwm-controller-thx/
I still have not had time to reverse the circuit but it looks like AC feeds that giant cap and also the actual heater. The 5v stuff is the detection switch and some other stuff.
Beautiful day today. Heading back out on the bike for another ride.
EDIT: Quick look before I headed out and it looks like that 14 pin IC is just controlling the little cooling fan. Possibly based upon input from the other IC (the one with the smd replacing the dip).
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