Random thoughts

[Perfect_Speed4069]

One of the lessons of the Hitler period is the stupidity of cleverness. How many were the expert arguments with which Jews dismissed the likelihood of Hitler’s rise, when it was already as clear as daylight … According to the clever people, fascism was impossible in the West. Clever people have always made things easy for barbarians, because they are so stupid … That cleverness is becoming stupidity is inherent in the historical tendency. – Max Horkheimer and Theodor Adorno

 

[Pib]

Unfortunately, it takes a lot of words to refute the lies, where a slogan has been repeated a thousand times and is perceived as truth...

 

[cybrguy]

Added: I'll bet you money, the F B I shows up at this guy's house...

 

[Perfect_Speed4069]

Unfortunately, it takes a lot of words to refute the lies, where a slogan has been repeated a thousand times and is perceived as truth...

When the legend becomes fact, print the legend.

 

[Octavia]

Unfortunately, it takes a lot of words to refute the lies, where a slogan has been repeated a thousand times and is perceived as truth...

Very much reminds me of my religious upbringing where we were taught to only trust folks in church authority, no matter how unchristlike they became, and dismiss anything that went contrary to their view of the world as heretical with cherry picked verses. Found out while trying to keep my faith that if I pressed any of the verses by citing context or with a conflicting clobber passage, there usually wasn’t much thought beyond “I was taught this, anything else is ‘controversial’ and should not be considered”.

My favourite quote that’s been sadly relevant lately:

“A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes”
- Mark Twain/Jonathan Swift

 

[bellona0544]

Very much reminds me of my religious upbringing where we were taught to only trust folks in church authority, no matter how unchristlike they became, and dismiss anything that went contrary to their view of the world as heretical with cherry picked verses. Found out while trying to keep my faith that if I pressed any of the verses by citing context or with a conflicting clobber passage, there usually wasn’t much thought beyond “I was taught this, anything else is ‘controversial’ and should not be considered”.

My favourite quote that’s been sadly relevant lately:

“A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes”
- Mark Twain/Jonathan Swift

In some ways, I am finding prostration to authorities we don't understand to be inherent in Christianity. I'm starting seminary and taking a course first on pastoral care, and the books were fascinatingly *almost* revolutionary, and belied a deep sense of actualization but very little self-actualization or actualization-in-others and a LOT of actualization-in-divinity.

Almost revolutionary: there was such great discussion on reauthoring the myths of one's life to reframe your own existence if life isn't serving you, but the author seemed to only be able to imagine *restructuring one's life within specific, divine bounds*. The author talked at length about adjusting and altering beliefs about gender norms and expectations of partners, but wasn't ever able to jump the discussion to things like queerness or non-monogamy as ways of experiencing the world to better serve one. There was value in the case studies presented that looked at how one's life experiences can create mythologies around what we expect of the people in our life, but there was never a point where the author took it to the next logical step: expanding our understanding of *systems to meet our needs* rather than just expanding our understanding of *getting needs met in a given system*. I can partly blame this on when the book was written ('90's), but I do think there is something underlying in faith that exists at the expense of all others which necessitates staying within the systems that we know and inhibits our ability to imagine there could be something else. Like, if God made men and women, we are expected to act within those systems, whereas if *humans* made men and women, then we can escape the narrow bounds of a crappy binary system in the first place. If God creates the universe, we are only capable of observing it and moving within it, but if *our collective consciousness* creates a series of constructs that we interpret as reality, then we can build entire new realities at a moment's notice.

Actualization: If you fundamentally believe that you are nothing before a higher power, and that you have no agency but that which He has given you, and you can only discover meaning that was created by someone Else, then it becomes much easier to doubt your own experiences or the experiences of others. When you are drawing meaning from something that ultimately is beyond you, it can feel great! You have a purpose, and something greater than you gave you that purpose, and all you have to do is try to live out that purpose to the best of your abilities. And when you falter as humans do to live up to the expectations you place on yourself, you can blame yourself for not being Godly enough, for not being Christlike enough, for not being enough period. You can find meaning without ever needing to evaluate your relationship to other humans and the world around you, which means you can justify doing basically anything because it isn't really you doing it--you are just the vessel through which Eternity is enacting its will. You always find strength and comfort in God, and God is infallible so failure to find that strength is a personal problem. It is actualization coming from a Supremacy we cannot hope to understand, meaning you never have to delevope a sense of actualization from anything that is fallible or human, and you live this constant life of wondering whether you are measuring up without being able to even set the terms of what you are trying to live up to.

Also, thanks for introducing me to that song Rät!

 

[Octavia]

In some ways, I am finding prostration to authorities we don't understand to be inherent in Christianity. I'm starting seminary and taking a course first on pastoral care, and the books were fascinatingly *almost* revolutionary, and belied a deep sense of actualization but very little self-actualization or actualization-in-others and a LOT of actualization-in-divinity.
…

Also, thanks for introducing me to that song Rät!

Snipping for brevity (and because I just skimmed, will try to read fully after work), but sounds right, submission to authority was definitely a core consideration by canonisers. Not too surprising about the revolutionary things, most folks I know who went to seminary had a deep desire to make things better, so makes sense it’s reflected in their works.

Glad you enjoyed! I do enjoy her music, but haven’t really listened to her much lately.

 

[Bakin4Life]

Gotta be honest. "Owning the Libs" just ain't hitting the same anymore. "It's gonna be a long 4 years for you people " bitch, you live here too! You aren't "triggering" me. I find non-millionaires saying this shit sad. I pity you.

Just to clarify (in case it's needed, which I don't think is the case, but just to be safe... )

My vitriol was intended for those who knowingly voted for the current situation. I don't think that's anyone active in this thread.

We will all be hurt by what's to come. But for those who voted the way they did, thinking 'they' were safe, and the 'others' would be the only ones who suffer... those are the people I will have no pity for, when their own lives are negatively impacted as a result. They're the ones who will reap what they've sown. And when I hear of it (because they will be vocal about it)... the one thing I'll ask is... "did you vote? for whom?"

I will literally laugh at their misery. It's all I have left at this point, as I look at the shattered pieces of my worldview. And it's not just the US -- authoritarian parties are on the rise, worldwide. But we were supposed to be the bulwark, the example. That's all gone, now.

I've spent the last few months in New Mexico -- supposedly a Dem stronghold. And supposedly warmer & drier in the winter. And, yet, as I drive through the various towns, I find T***p signs and flags literally fucking everywhere. Most of the locals I come across are fine people. But when I walk into a Walmart (bc that's the only god damned place with a full grocery, in these places)... I see the 'why' of it, as their pricing is insane, compared to where I normally live and shop (NM is small, population-wise). There are no 'sales' on anything, compared to other large chains. And since everyone needs food, they're stuck with WM's shitty prices, with the belief that "that's the way it is, everywhere".

 

[Flotsam]

Very much reminds me of my religious upbringing where we were taught to only trust folks in church authority, no matter how unchristlike they became, and dismiss anything that went contrary to their view of the world as heretical with cherry picked verses. Found out while trying to keep my faith that if I pressed any of the verses by citing context or with a conflicting clobber passage, there usually wasn’t much thought beyond “I was taught this, anything else is ‘controversial’ and should not be considered”.

My favourite quote that’s been sadly relevant lately:

“A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes”
- Mark Twain/Jonathan Swift

I found this passage very interesting as in some ways it was a similar environment I grew up with. I always felt this was shoved down my throat and my reaction was to push away from the indoctrination. I am curious what your reaction was?

 

[florduh]

My vitriol was intended for those who knowingly voted for the current situation.

I don't begrudge you for feeling that way. I'm just speaking for myself personally. I don't have it in me to have vitriol for tens of millions of people. I save that for oligarchs, politicians, and the media. To be clear, I think those voters are very fucking dumb. I just feel more pity towards them than anything else

Related. I'm also done being mad at Conservative Media for making absurd excuses for Elon Musk's Nazi salute. Please keep it up, guys. I love it.

 

[Octavia]

I found this passage very interesting as in some ways it was a similar environment I grew up with. I always felt this was shoved down my throat and my reaction was to push away from the indoctrination. I am curious what your reaction was?

For a while tried to get the dissonance under control but eventually ended up deconverting. Before that I considered myself a true believer, and was a good little rule follower.

The final straw was when the head pastor of my church was credibly accused of emotional/spiritual abuse by one of the senior leadership with several others coming forward with their own stories. Some of the stories were posted on atheist blogs which were blocked by my house’s morality filter, asked the admin to unblock who responded “I’ll do it this time, but this could be dangerous to your faith <bible verse about not listening to the words of heretics>”, which I point to as the moment I truly gave up trying to salvage what was left of my faith.

 

[cybrguy]

The story I posted above about the turds IQ is bogus, of course, but it is still funny. And I have no doubt that he has a low IQ, it just isn't likely in the 70s and that was not a real story, according to snopes. I have no interest in researching it further...

@Octavia That was the first time I heard anything from her. I enjoyed the Rat song. I listened to her explanation of it afterwards, and I liked my interpretation better...

And for the benefit of all readers, I will not engage in the conversation about the church other than to say while I really can't speak about the "church", virtually all of the clergy I read about or see or hear publicly these days, and the vast majority of the people who claim "godliness", are so far removed from the message and teachings of Christ that there are no recognizable connections. From my perspective, the church today is nothing more than a political action committee.

 

[vapviking]

God is a concept by which we measure our pain.
~John Lennon

All religions are aberrations of their original inspiration.
~Me

 

[Flotsam]

For a while tried to get the dissonance under control but eventually ended up deconverting. Before that I considered myself a true believer, and was a good little rule follower.

The final straw was when the head pastor of my church was credibly accused of emotional/spiritual abuse by one of the senior leadership with several others coming forward with their own stories. Some of the stories were posted on atheist blogs which were blocked by my house’s morality filter, asked the admin to unblock who responded “I’ll do it this time, but this could be dangerous to your faith <bible verse about not listening to the words of heretics>”, which I point to as the moment I truly gave up trying to salvage what was left of my faith.

my wife was a lot more religious than me and for a while we went to a local church. They had a big fundraising thing to build a large addition to their school and the pastor of ours had his name in the news. A women stepped forward to say that she was sexually abused by this man when he was in the seminary, something like 25 years earlier. He quickly resigned and you never heard heard of him again and eventually he died. But the thing that struck me was he was the most holier than thou people even stopping in the middle of mass to chew someone out for something like their little kid wandering out to the aisle. and then we learn that he did this , what a piece of SHT hypocrite.

This is like my Brother in Law with the parents of their own daughter's friend. She was in her late 20s. She had died of a drug overdose and he went on one time about this girl's parents being responsible for her death which was not even close to being true. When my BIL announced he was voting for tRump. Here is another Holier than Thou Azzhole who could easier vote for that man as a convicted Rapist and myriad other crimes because he thought his finances would benefit. I called him out and he just didn't like it. He was completely a hypocrite too.

 

[2tiki]

"Lord, please save me from your followers."
~ Bumper Sticker

 

[florduh]

Nice job to everyone making excuses for this moron. He confessed.

"I just can't help being a Nazi "- 55 year old man

 

[Octavia]

@cybrguy Yeah, I came to that same discovery during my escape when I realised the message of “love your neighbour as yourself” had an unspoken “only if they’re christian” included. There definitely are good folks and churches out there, but the majority seem to be corrupted by the gospel of Supply Side Jesus.

What was your interpretation? I remember hers was something like getting into tech due to the promises of a better world, but then realising they were just in it for the money.

@Flotsam Jesus that sounds awful, but definitely not uncommon. Had something similar with a baptist church I went to as a kid quietly dismissing their children’s pastor for abusing multiple kids (my mom even asked if that was why I left the church).

I mentioned in another post my disappointment with my uncle, he’s gone off the deep end since Trump started dominating the evangelical sphere. He was usually a decent person, but around 2016 he changed to something predatory, staged a hostile takeover of his church and made a point of doing a “come to jesus” sermon at every gathering while staring directly at my wife and I. He is no longer welcome, but my other religious family members who can be nice are still welcome.


“I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
- Ghandi (allegedly, probably misattributed)

 

[Pib]

Honestly, I can't say whether Elon Musk is a Nazi, partly it would be defamation of all the killings of the Holocaust (as a German, my view may be different to others). In any case, in the minimum he can be categorized as fascist / neo-fascist. Poor America for elevating such people to the top. Fortunately, I'm far away and I'm afraid that Europe will go in the same direction again. Do almost none of the Trump voters really see the parallels to the beginning of the Third Reich?

So here is some shit from the Musk - AfD talk

AfD top candidate Alice Weidel was a guest of tech billionaire Elon Musk. Several false claims were made during the conversation. She brings up her history-falsifying statement that Hitler was a communist.

and

About half an hour into the conversation, Musk says that the German media are trying to bring a right-wing party like the AfD into the vicinity of National Socialism. Weidel takes up the statement and claims that this makes no sense simply because the word National Socialism contains the word socialism. Her party, on the other hand, is conservative and libertarian. Adolf Hitler was also a socialist and communist and saw himself as such. Musk adds that Hitler also nationalized businesses.

That is so much fucking shit, if it walks like a nazi, talks like a nazi and acts like a nazi, then it is a nazi...

 

[Flotsam]

Honestly, I can't say whether Elon Musk is a Nazi, partly it would be defamation of all the killings of the Holocaust (as a German, my view may be different to others). In any case, in the minimum he can be categorized as fascist / neo-fascist. Poor America for elevating such people to the top. Fortunately, I'm far away and I'm afraid that Europe will go in the same direction again. Do almost none of the Trump voters really see the parallels to the beginning of the Third Reich?

Musk is South African by birth. Don't want to disparage a country in its entirety by any means but their history does include that ugly apartheid period, which they finally had to stop due to international sanctions and opposition. (makes me wonder how tRump would have responded if that Apartheid was going on today?).

Post World War II a lot of Nazis that escaped went to both South America and South Africa. Musk thinks its "cute" to bring up symbols of Naziism as so-called "free speech" on his X platform, but i don't think he was expecting the blow back in Europe that he has gotten and that is translating into Less than a warm welcome with some of his brands like Tesla. I have personally been to Auschwitz so i have seen the inhumanity Fascism brings upon denigrated peoples.

Incidentally within the US there have horrific periods of attacks on Immigrants throughout our history as well. That phrase " they're eating the Dogs & Cats " was widely used in the 1910s & 1920s against people that were our ancestors who were migrating world wide to find a better life. It is their code word and was directed to East Europeans like Italians, Poles, Greeks & other Slavic peoples. It is disgusting and just shows the level of hate that can be sown on not just immigrants but Americans of Immigrant descent, which is almost everyone. You would think as Americans we would be better than that but as the last election proved we are NOT.

 

[florduh]

Honestly, I can't say whether Elon Musk is a Nazi, partly it would be defamation of all the killings of the Holocaust (as a German, my view may be different to others). In any case, in the minimum he can be categorized as fascist / neo-fascist.

You're right. When I say he's a "Nazi" I'm using it as a shorthand for Fascist. He's absolutely a Fascist. This has been clear for at least a year now.

As far as disparaging the memory of the Holocaust, Musk was reprimanded by the ADL for making Nazi/Holocaust jokes. This is after the ADL humiliated themselves by defending Musk's Nazi salute.

So here is some shit from the Musk - AfD talk

Musk also said Germans should stop feeling ashamed about the Holocaust...

Adolf Hitler was also a socialist and communist and saw himself as such. Musk adds that Hitler also nationalized businesses.

Hitler nationalized some businesses. He also went on the biggest privatization spree in history until the 1970's. The Nazis were capitalists. Oskar Schindler from Schindler's list was a fucking factory owner. A literal capitalist.

From the Boston Holocaust Museum:

Socialists, communists, leftists, and trade unionists were the first victims of the Third Reich. Musk and Weidel are engaging in Holocaust revisionism. People who do that are fucking Nazis

 

[Pib]

@florduh I understand what you are saying, it may be purely a matter of definition. Fascism is what led to national socialism and you can't look at one without the other. But can you really call today's fascists nazis without the deeds they committed, without the third reich?
Well, the fascists who glorify the Third Reich are nazis.

It is not for nothing that the term "right-wing extremist" is used in Germany to portray national socialism as something from the radical right-wing spectrum, but also make it unique in the hope of the times. So not all fascists are Nazis, but all are right-wing extremists, the AfD may not be a nazy party, but they are right wing extremists, fascists.

Of course fascists deny national socialism, because it was the biggest variety to emerge from it and they will always be seen as such. Basically, as a German I can't be ashamed of the Holocaust, I was born years after it, I didn't have the opportunity, the choice. But I must be ashamed if these people come to power again.

In the end it may not matter, nationalization has led to a short-term upswing and jobs in order to advance the war plans and spread the "own truth", for this they must nationalized businesses. Look at how Trump has put the court on his side, something Hitler has also done as a first step.


And the saga continues

The AfD can rely on Elon Musk: After his conversation with party leader Weidel on his platform X, the tech billionaire has now joined the party's election campaign kick-off live.
...
The AfD is the best hope for Germany, he said. "Fight for a great future for Germany," Musk said to the cheers of what the party said were around 4,500 AfD supporters at the fair in Halle (Saale).
...
The entrepreneur also lamented that there was "too much focus on past guilt" and that this needed to be left behind. Children should not be guilty for the sins of their great-grandparents, he said and called for optimism. "It is very important that people in Germany are proud to be German," said Musk.
...
The AfD has his full support and - he believes - also the support of the Trump administration. Weidel expressed her best wishes for the US government under President Donald Trump and his campaign slogan "Make America great again". She later added "Make Germany great again".

Elon Musk, shut the fuck up. If we Germans don't commemorate the Holocaust, who will commemorate the far too many victims of a state machinery of extermination?

The fascists of the world are networking, Italy is ready, Austria is on the brink, the Netherlands is close and France is wobbling. I hope we Germans are smarter in the upcoming elections, I really hope so.

@florduh But when I look at Musk's gesture, it's hard not to see him as a Nazi.

 

[florduh]

Me after watching the news coming out the People's Republic of China and the United States of America the past 7 days:

 

[mephisto]

Appreciate all of the well worded recent posts. FC has become my primary source for world events since we have such a good base of contributors. I would rather partake of the information provided here than try and navigate the mainstream kaka on TV.
On a completely different note, me and the Mrs. caught Miles Kennedy at the Keswick on Sat. night. What a solid performer, musician, and all around nice fella. It is a comfort to be able to see good live music still.

 

[Bakin4Life]

Like many, I'd been wondering... Greenland? Canada? Panama Canal?

The canal is pretty easy, actually. He who controls the canal can also limit access of it. China especially would be inconvenienced. And it would only take a few hours; certainly less than a day to invade and assume control.

As for the other two... think not of resources, but of land mass. Add up the total of US & territories, add Canada & Greenland, and I'm pretty sure you have the largest square acreage in the world. So this is legacy building, in his mind.

T**** fancies himself a modern-day Jefferson (Louisiana Purchase only; not any of that pesky democracy stuff).

 

[florduh]

As for the other two... think not of resources, but of land mass. Add up the total of US & territories, add Canada & Greenland, and I'm pretty sure you have the largest square acreage in the world. So this is legacy building, in his mind.

You know how sometimes, right before they die, a terminal patient will suddenly have a burst of energy and start eating again? They may even have a ravenous appetite. The scenario you're envisioning is exactly like that, but for our dying empire.

Related: the Trump Admin is currently alienating the few Central/South American countries that still have us as their major trading partner.