PBW & the Chemistry of Clean

[oldiebutgoodie]

I would totally agree with that choice as well, SG really lends itself to that type of application.

I have this type of SG setup, a 1 gallon 5" dia round plastic container mixed 10:1. It works well, although I'd prefer a narrower container but the Hydraline requires the larger size. Just dunk an HT into the container, cap it for the night, quick rinse the next day (with the tubing/rubber stopper tool).

I also use this solution for my bubblers. Even though a couple fit into the container, I find it easier to just fill the pieces thru the joint especially the dewaar's, using a funnel or large syringe, cork it overnight.

I know some avoid doing all this with RezBlock. I tried that and don't like it - keeps the glass clean, but there is still that stale odor; I need fresh water daily.

 

[John Lewus]

I agree on the rezblock. I prefer fresh water and it is stale after 3 days with rezblock. I use it when friends come over and I am doing ten elb in a night then rezblock is great. I do like how rezblock looks. I am probably the only one though who likes the pink color.

 

[t-dub]

Not to derail my own thread but I love the color and change the RezBlock daily as well. Sometimes I let it go 2 days but very rarely.

 

[oldiebutgoodie]

Not to derail my own thread but I love the color and change the RezBlock daily as well. Sometimes I let it go 2 days but very rarely.

I considered that with my HT's with <2 oz water in the chambers. But my Mobius bubblers take 4-5oz, that gets pretty expensive changing it daily. (I have the concentrate, using your ratio.)

 

[t-dub]

I considered that with my HT's with <2 oz water in the chambers. But my Mobius bubblers take 4-5oz, that gets pretty expensive changing it daily. (I have the concentrate, using your ratio.)

You know its funny, but I stopped putting RezBlock in the pieces I'm not using that day, keep them dry, and if I just use what I need, I consistently use a bottle a month, no matter what glass I choose. The fluid follows me.

 

[momofthegoons]

I also only use Rezblock in the piece I am using at the time and rinse when done. Very rarely does the Rezblock stay in the piece more than a day. I like the fresh pink stuff.....

There is a cost involved, but when I think of the ISO, Simple Green and PBW I'm saving, I have a feeling it evens out. I was going through an awful lot of those prior to using the Rezblock.

 

[John Lewus]

I have spent sooooooo much money on stupid crap like rubber stoppers, silicon tubes, various glass stoppers, cleaning brushes, etc.. and I have still not quite found the best for my usage scenario. I feel that a cheaper Rezblock solution that can be made in bulk on my own with a bucket of PBW water might be the trick. My time is the most important out of all of this so the quickest way to a nearly perfect (perfection takes too much time) piece on a daily basis on the most cost effective solution is what I am after <-- Engineer

 

[oldiebutgoodie]

. . . My time is the most important out of all of this so the quickest way to a nearly perfect (perfection takes too much time) piece on a daily basis on the most cost effective solution is what I am after <-- Engineer

This engineer is a big believer in Occam's Razor

My SG solution costs ~$1.70@gallon batch. How long it lasts of course is dependent on how much is being cleaned and how dirty, but so far appears my batch will last about a month. That's ~$.05@day.

RezBlock concentrate costs $.24@3 drops => 1oz. So my 2oz HT costs $.48 each fill, while in my Mobius bubblers which use 3-5oz, it's $.72-$1.20@fill. So in a month, with the mix of pieces I use, the cost works out to $20 minimum, easily more. That's >10x the SG cost. Even if I changed the RB every-other-day, still >5x. Even if I changed the RB every-other-day and the SG every two weeks, still 3x.

About each week, ISO overnight soak and return to bottle for reuse. With the glass already clean, ISO stays clean enough to reuse for a long while, costs <$1@week. Consequently I only need to periodically clean with PBW. I mix my own (super easy) for <half the cost of Five Star; the 5 lbs I have will last a very long time. Overnight soak like the ISO, thorough hot rinse with the tool.

I thought RezBlock would save me money and time. Turns out that for me at least, it's definitely more expensive. As far as time, pretty quick to just pull the piece from my SG container (or emptying the solution from the piece back into the container, with the Mobius stuff) and give it a quick rinse with the tool. Bottom line, most cost (incl time) effective.

 

[t-dub]

Yes, if you don't mind storing large amounts of liquid chemicals, SG is the way to go. Remember, one of my goals for this project was to find a powder to mix in glass. Smaller and easier to store and move. Also, RezBlock is meant to make cleaning easier, save time, but not your money. 420Science is definitely in the business of taking that

 

[John Lewus]

This engineer is a big believer in Occam's Razor

My SG solution costs ~$1.70@gallon batch. How long it lasts of course is dependent on how much is being cleaned and how dirty, but so far appears my batch will last about a month. That's ~$.05@day.

RezBlock concentrate costs $.24@3 drops => 1oz. So my 2oz HT costs $.48 each fill, while in my Mobius bubblers which use 3-5oz, it's $.72-$1.20@fill. So in a month, with the mix of pieces I use, the cost works out to $20 minimum, easily more. That's >10x the SG cost. Even if I changed the RB every-other-day, still >5x. Even if I changed the RB every-other-day and the SG every two weeks, still 3x.

About each week, ISO overnight soak and return to bottle for reuse. With the glass already clean, ISO stays clean enough to reuse for a long while, costs <$1@week. Consequently I only need to periodically clean with PBW. I mix my own (super easy) for <half the cost of Five Star; the 5 lbs I have will last a very long time. Overnight soak like the ISO, thorough hot rinse with the tool.

I thought RezBlock would save me money and time. Turns out that for me at least, it's definitely more expensive. As far as time, pretty quick to just pull the piece from my SG container (or emptying the solution from the piece back into the container, with the Mobius stuff) and give it a quick rinse with the tool. Bottom line, most cost (incl time) effective.

I like the way that you broke this down. This stuff really is expensive. I was using 8 drops for my 60t and had not worked out the cost yet. I hate the idea of storing liquid around but I might try the dunk and soak approach. The half cranberry / half water approach seems good too but not sure how cost effective that is. Fundamentally spending $240 a year as it is in your case seems too much for cleaner glass more often. I estimate PBW will cost me $20 or $30 a year for a soak every 3rd day and maybe less. I bought 10 bucks of it over a month ago and it hardly looks used.

What is SG? I tried searching the forum but you can't search on 2 words. Google was not much help either.

 

[SD_haze]

I like the way that you broke this down. This stuff really is expensive. I was using 8 drops for my 60t and had not worked out the cost yet. I hate the idea of storing liquid around but I might try the dunk and soak approach. The half cranberry / half water approach seems good too but not sure how cost effective that is. Fundamentally spending $240 a year as it is in your case seems too much for cleaner glass more often. I estimate PBW will cost me $20 or $30 a year for a soak every 3rd day and maybe less. I bought 10 bucks of it over a month ago and it hardly looks used.

What is SG? I tried searching the forum but you can't search on 2 words. Google was not much help either.

simple green :]

I have a big container of it from CostCo but only ever used it for household cleaning

 

[Roger D]

I agree on the rezblock. I prefer fresh water and it is stale after 3 days with rezblock. I use it when friends come over and I am doing ten elb in a night then rezblock is great. I do like how rezblock looks. I am probably the only one though who likes the pink color.

Now I always use distilled water for my solution and also to rinse my pieces after each hot clean.

I changed my anti stick solution, more distilled water, more cranberry, less vegetable glycerin and citric acid. Here is the updated recipe.

With this I can afford to change my water as much as I want (a couple times a day)

 

[oldiebutgoodie]

What is SG? I tried searching the forum but you can't search on 2 words. Google was not much help either.

Sorry about that. Just short-hand t-dub and I used for Simple Green, back-referenced to posts above.

Btw, I don't really see my method as storing large amounts of liquid chemicals. I have a 1 gallon container of SG concentrate and a 1 gallon container for my diluted batch. The former is with the other household cleaners. The soaking container is round 5"x11"; it would be smaller if I didn't have a HydraLine. Ya just gotta have a convenient place to keep it, along with the bottle of ISO, etc.

 

[John Lewus]

Sorry about that. Just short-hand t-dub and I used for Simple Green, back-referenced to posts above.

Btw, I don't really see my method as storing large amounts of liquid chemicals. I have a 1 gallon container of SG concentrate and a 1 gallon container for my diluted batch. The former is with the other household cleaners. The soaking container is round 5"x11"; it would be smaller if I didn't have a HydraLine. Ya just gotta have a convenient place to keep it, along with the bottle of ISO, etc.

Between Simple Green and PBW which would you recommend from a cost/performance standpoint?

 

[t-dub]

If you wash the SG down the drain every time, PBW. If I was going to a soak tank system I don't think I would use PBW, SG just does a better job and PBW isn't made for being mixed and used for a long time.

 

[Tweak]

Does SG prevent hard water stains?

This is my main concern. I guess I should just get distiller like Roger D posted.

 

[t-dub]

No SG does nothing for hard water stains.

 

[oldiebutgoodie]

Agree with t-dub on all points.

Btw, I'm interested in oxalic acid for water stains, was posted earlier IIRC but not much discussion. I haven't got any of the full-strength yet, but I found a cleaner which contains it. Experimenting, will post results.

 

[John Lewus]

No SG does nothing for hard water stains.

Do you need to dilute Simply Green in any way or just pour it in I never used it before.

 

[oldiebutgoodie]

Do you need to dilute Simply Green in any way or just pour it in I never used it before.

It's a concentrate. Comes in the typical spray bottle, or 1 gallon. I use the "heavy cleaning" recommendation of 10:1. Initially, I just sprayed the concentrate into the glass piece after corking the bottom, filled with water, corked top, shake vigorously, let soak, empty and thorough rinse. Later I learned that it comes in a 1 gallon size, which is much less expensive. And I also found that the VXL method of dunk/soak was easier/cheaper/faster too, for small or narrow pieces like Hydratubes. For pieces too large for my soaking container, I just draw from that solution to pour into those pieces and cork them.

Just bear in mind that SG is good for particulate matter and resin as long as you don't let it build up a lot and really harden, so a regular soak is best. If you get hard build-up, you'll need a corrosive agent like PBW. And of course, none of these will remove some water mineral deposits - for those an acid is typically required, or prevention (e.g., using distilled water).

 

[John Lewus]

It's a concentrate. Comes in the typical spray bottle, or 1 gallon. I use the "heavy cleaning" recommendation of 10:1. Initially, I just sprayed the concentrate into the glass piece after corking the bottom, filled with water, corked top, shake vigorously, let soak, empty and thorough rinse. Later I learned that it comes in a 1 gallon size, which is much less expensive. And I also found that the VXL method of dunk/soak was easier/cheaper/faster too, for small or narrow pieces like Hydratubes. For pieces too large for my soaking container, I just draw from that solution to pour into those pieces and cork them.

Just bear in mind that SG is good for particulate matter and resin as long as you don't let it build up a lot and really harden, so a regular soak is best. If you get hard build-up, you'll need a corrosive agent like PBW. And of course, none of these will remove some water mineral deposits - for those an acid is typically required, or prevention (e.g., using distilled water).

Great advice. I might look into this stuff. How long do you think a bucket of this solution would last with a Mobius piece soaking each day? A week? A month?

 

[notmyrealUSERname]

Do you need to dilute Simply Green in any way or just pour it in I never used it before.

dont dilute the sg! i have found that simple green works pretty well, however, it does take longer to do the job than grunge off. sg is also way cheaper.

i have also had some limted success with multiple sessions of oxiclean to minimize hard water stains. clr doesn't seem to be able to clean off the hardwater stains to my satisfaction either.

i always use distilled water during use, and for the final rinsing of my pieces and even then, i still get cloudy stains on my glass when its completely dry - like 2 days of drying. so i am not 100% convinced that the cloudy stains are from hardwater alone.

i havent gotten a hold of any pbw yet to see for my self if pbw is the 'magic clean everything cleaner' that we were hoping for. but based on previous posts, it seems that a specific approach is required for each issue, i.e. hardwater, resin, smell, etc.

my main issue is the hard water cloudiness that prevents me from ever getting some of my secondhand purchases back to an 'as new' state. lately, i have been interested in klein bottles. they can be hard to fill, empty and clean due to an airlock that is created when the fluid moves around inside the bottle. also, because there is very little air movement inside the klein bottle it takes forever, to dry = water spots and hard water stains. their solution to this is to do a final rinse with alcohol, or acetone to wash out the water and replace it with something that evaps much faster. alternatively, the bake them in the oven so the water will evap faster. finally, a pump or fan is also used to speed up evap time.

http://www.kleinbottle.com/how_to_fill.htm

now, how long do you need to let the alcohol rinse evap before its safe to use again? also, will this technique prevent those stains from happening in the first place if used on a new piece from the beginning? any thoughts?

Great advice. I might look into this stuff. How long do you think a bucket of this solution would last with a Mobius piece soaking each day? A week? A month?

if your only vaping, i could see you using the same bottle of sg for months and months. i have used the same grunge off bottle for over a year. when it gets chunky i just strain it out, and keep on using it. i have even left if out for a few days until all the water had evaped out of the grunge off, there was a thick film of GO on the bottom of the bucket. put some hot water in, gave it a swish and its just as effective at cleaning now as it was before. its pretty amazing stuff.

 

[oldiebutgoodie]

Great advice. I might look into this stuff. How long do you think a bucket of this solution would last with a Mobius piece soaking each day? A week? A month?

That's just going to depend upon how you use your piece - i.e., how "dirty" it is - the strength of your mix, and the length of your soak. My batch is about a month old and is looking weak, even though it worked well last night.

Which Mobius piece do you have? As I mentioned above, I only use the soaking container for HT's; I wouldn't use it otherwise because I can get my bubblers into the container but it's tight and unnecessary; easier to cork/fill/cork. Same with my 60t. Which is to say, if you're not doing a full-submerge soak then a smaller container (maybe a quart) of SG mix is the way to go, with a funnel and a couple corks.

dont dilute the sg! i have found that simple green works pretty well, however, it does take longer to do the job than grunge off. sg is also way cheaper.

Personally I haven't found any value in using SG full-strength; that would be 10x the cost. Perhaps it's because I only vape and clean regularly.

. . . i have also had some limted success with multiple sessions of oxiclean to minimize hard water stains. clr doesn't seem to be able to clean off the hardwater stains to my satisfaction either.

i always use distilled water during use, and for the final rinsing of my pieces and even then, i still get cloudy stains on my glass when its completely dry - like 2 days of drying. so i am not 100% convinced that the cloudy stains are from hardwater alone.

i havent gotten a hold of any pbw yet to see for my self if pbw is the 'magic clean everything cleaner' that we were hoping for. but based on previous posts, it seems that a specific approach is required for each issue, i.e. hardwater, resin, smell, etc.

my main issue is the hard water cloudiness that prevents me from ever getting some of my secondhand purchases back to an 'as new' state. lately, i have been interested in klein bottles. they can be hard to fill, empty and clean due to an airlock that is created when the fluid moves around inside the bottle. also, because there is very little air movement inside the klein bottle it takes forever, to dry = water spots and hard water stains. their solution to this is to do a final rinse with alcohol, or acetone to wash out the water and replace it with something that evaps much faster. alternatively, the bake them in the oven so the water will evap faster. finally, a pump or fan is also used to speed up evap time.

http://www.kleinbottle.com/how_to_fill.htm

now, how long do you need to let the alcohol rinse evap before its safe to use again? also, will this technique prevent those stains from happening in the first place if used on a new piece from the beginning? any thoughts?

Similar conclusions here. If you have build-up over a mineral deposit, the build-up must first be removed. That's why I clean regularly; the SG handles the resin, smell, particulates just fine. Still, I'll get those spots or rings - I don't know what else it would be than mineral - and I can't explain why it happens on some of my glass but not others, same water. I've also noticed it can take a day for the rings to appear, no explanation.

In lieu of using a final alcohol rinse, I'm trying compressed air. A few shots of air seems to quickly accelerate evaporation and total drying. Seems to be working, but too soon to be sure.

Also gave an oxalic-based cleanser a try this morning, but it's only ~1/4 strength. Tonight I hope to know how it works.

 

[vape4life]

I used to use compressed air in my glass Solo stems....they all developed these weird white lines for some reason. I posted about it and concluded it was hard water deposits, but it wasn't because when I stopped using it (someone warned about the bittering agents) I never had the problem again with other glass stems.

 

[John Lewus]

That's just going to depend upon how you use your piece - i.e., how "dirty" it is - the strength of your mix, and the length of your soak. My batch is about a month old and is looking weak, even though it worked well last night.

Which Mobius piece do you have? As I mentioned above, I only use the soaking container for HT's; I wouldn't use it otherwise because I can get my bubblers into the container but it's tight and unnecessary; easier to cork/fill/cork. Same with my 60t. Which is to say, if you're not doing a full-submerge soak then a smaller container (maybe a quart) of SG mix is the way to go, with a funnel and a couple corks.

Personally I haven't found any value in using SG full-strength; that would be 10x the cost. Perhaps it's because I only vape and clean regularly.

I do have the 60t and use the cork method now with PBW. I clean every 3 days so buildup is not really a problem for me. I am thinking a covered bucket might be the best for me that is a bit on the bigger side to take the Mobius piece. I want to make sure I can pour it back in. A covered bucket is best because I keep everything in the bathroom and don't want any of my wifes conservative friends or family to know I do this even though I am a medical user.

I am going to try this simply green stuff out this week sometime.