Discontinued Magic Flight Launch Tube

magicflight

Manufacturer
Manufacturer
Hi Progress,

Progress said:
Hello Magic Flight,
Could you please tell us a little about what may have happened to CD when he first used his MF (http://www.fuckcombustion.com/viewtopic.php?pid=20122#p20122). I know that he said he tried it with less/more-finely-ground herb (and it worked better), but any insight you could provide to ensure that others have a positive first experience would be greatly appreciated....
Thanks for reminding me. For the convenience of readers, here is a trimmed quote of CD's observations in that post:

Clear_Dome said:
... I load the screen as about 3/4 of the capacity ... it defently make vapor but really soon I notice the dark brown color on the herb that was direclty touching the screen (as the screen get hot) but the herb on top was still green ...so I load it back with less herb than start back to vaporize ,the first 2-3 hit was good but once again in short period of time the herb direcly on the sreen became pretty dark ... I cant say that I have a uniform vaporization ...
In regards to the uniformity of the heating, it is true that material that is directly touching the screen, particularly in the bottom corners, will generally heat more/sooner than that near the top and center of the load. The available (natural) current of convection is by itself not quite enough to ensure even browning, unless the rate at which energy is added and taken away is explicitly managed by the user. To explain, I need to provide a little background.

Careful visual observation of our testers using earlier versions of this product identified two typical profiles, which I can colloquially refer to as the "I want it now" smoker, and the "I want it right" vaporist. Nearly everyone on the FC forum is in the "want it right" camp, so I probably do not need to describe that.

The "now" type of user mostly wants to see something happening nearly immediately, and because they often smoke also, they have certain expectations as to how quickly they will be able to get 'high' on the device. Such users tend to be less interested in the details of operation and are mostly interested in "getting there" rather than in learning something new about how to do so most efficiently (the "journey"). Ironically, we also found that a significant percentage of such users actually want a taste that was more like what they would get when smoking a regular pipe. Although people here may have a hard time relating to this, our interviews of such users found that long habit (more than 12 years) and a certain amount of habituated ritual tended to be the reason for this unexpected preference.

To satisfy both groups of users (as deemed necessary by management), we elected to make it possible for the unit to be hot and fast for the mostly smokers and give control to the mostly vaporists. It is the control that makes all of the difference, and there are two kinds: control of the airflow (drawing breath control) and control of the added energy (heat or intermittent battery contact control). In justification of our decision, please bear in mind that there are a LOT more smokers out there than vaporists (at least 30 to 1 statistically)! To survive as a business, we have to cater to the real market.

In regards to control, remember that the "now" type of user is generally a lot less interested in learning how to operate the device to attain optimum vaporization. They do not want control (yet). They simply want to hit the gas (full throttle) and get there. As such, we provide general directions in the form of "load as if for a one hit pipe, apply battery contact continuously for 15 seconds, and draw evenly and slowly". This would normally provide at least 2 or 3 decent vapor hits and then about 2 or 3 more "smoker" hits (and yes, there are active ingredients in these latter hits -- we tested for this too; in fact, the different components that come off at these higher temperatures is a complex subject in its own right -- many smokers expect some of these aspects as part of their expected experience). As such, the maximum steady-state set point temperature of the heating element is usually calibrated to be just below that necessary for actual fiber ignition.

However, for the vaporist -- who is usually at least a little more willing to learn new bits of operating protocol -- there is an alternative. A dedicated vaporist can control the rate at which energy/heat is introduced by applying the battery to the contact intermittently, and they can also control the rate at which that heat moves/convects through the material by controlling the rate at which the draw happens. Naturally, the instructions for this are a little more complex -- including them in the initial package offering tends to scare off too many potential purchasers.

For the vaporists who care about optimal taste, I would suggest that you 1) apply less power and apply it more slowly (ie, use a lower max temperature), by pulsing the battery contact, and 2) control the breath and draw rate (slow it down as much as possible). The idea is to prevent the screen from reaching its max temperature and to draw the vapor out of the device slowly enough to let the convection cycle do its work. The actual duty cycle to use and draw rate will depend to some extent on the nature of the load and the ambient environmental conditions -- as well as user available lung capacity.

For "typical conditions", I would recommend that the optimum performance would be obtained using a duty cycle of 3 seconds on, 1 over the first few intervals, starting to draw breath only after the first full cycle has been completed, and then, a cycle of 2 on and 2 off for another 10 intervals, while all along drawing breath at the rate of about 5 cm/sec. A 1st hit like this should occur over a period of at least 20 seconds, followed by a 15 second wait period with no new energy applied or breath drawn. After the wait, a similar procedure would be used for the second hit, perhaps varying the duty cycle as necessary to account for preferred user taste the fact that the device is now a bit warmer to start with. Used in this way, it should always be possible (with a little skill) to attain a fairly even (although not perfect) browning and a much better taste. For most users, the manner of applying the battery and the rate at which drawing happens fairly quickly becomes a matter of intuition and is no longer thought of.

It is to be understood that applying energy continuously over any long interval is going to scorch the load. In our tests, the objectives are 1) to ensure that there is the right amount of heat to provide between 1 and 3 'good' hits if applying the battery for a moderate interval (15 seconds), and 2) to ensure that actual ignition does not happen even if applying battery power for far too long (more than 30 seconds on a single stretch). Without pulsing the power, and especially if applying heat overlong, we do expect to see blackening of the load. To some extent, having the steady-state max temperature be this high is necessary to ensure that there is enough 'top end' heat for effective control, even in fairly cold ambient conditions.

Finally, it has been our observation that even smokers who start using this device with no interest in the finer points of control above, eventually start modulating the applied power and draw rates on their own to suit their own preferred taste. In a few of our disinterested 'smoking' testers, after a few months of using it, have even fully "converted" to the purist camp (I am sure this is not a new theme on FC). What is of especial interest to us is the capacity for the Launch Tube to be a 1st vaporizer for people who are otherwise committed to conventional smoking. Perhaps people on FC can think of it as a pipe with 'built in training wheels' :)

I hope that this has been helpful.
-- Magic-Flight
 
magicflight,

Clear_Dome

Vaporhead
Glass Blower
so what temp reach the screen ? I want some data here LOL

thanks for the batterie trix I will try it but btw this is not really for the taste but it is for how healty the unit is . You know some toxin get vaporize just over thc boilling point soo
 
Clear_Dome,

Acolyte of Zinglon

Wizard-Ninja
might i suggest again my idea for a battery holder that goes on both prongs and has a spring loaded button that would complete the circuit, or some other type of switch, the button is ideal because you cant leave it on, the circuit is only complete when the button is being held down

first, this would improve the stealth factor, as it would allow the user to operate the unit one handed (and still have control over the temp, which brings me to...)

second, it would allow the vaporists to much more easily control the temperature, we could give - second bursts of power without having to fiddle with swinging the battery pack up and down, which would reduce stealth and ease of use

and third, this could be sold as an optional accessory. the battery holder design you have is very simple, and most likely appeals more to those that plan on giving the herb full on heat, and if they prefer the current one, they can choose to have it or for a reasonable price or they could upgrade to the "pushbutton" battery holder
 
Acolyte of Zinglon,

magicflight

Manufacturer
Manufacturer
Hi lwien,

Understood.

Actually, we are trying to gear up in a manner consistent with a larger market -- people who are tired of always having to deal with no-smoking zones -- and who want speed and stealth. As I mentioned earlier, there are a lot of people in this category. We know we have not attained sufficient stealth (yet). Its getting worked on.

In regards to the number of people who have (or do) contribute to a project like this, you might want to consider the I-Inhale effort. It is my understanding (although I could be wrong), that there is something like 30 people involved in that company (again, excluding testers). Also, for comparison, the production of the Extreme vaporizer (the one with the remote control) had to have required the combined efforts of several people. It seems likely to me, at least.

-- Magic-Flight
 
magicflight,

magicflight

Manufacturer
Manufacturer
Clear_Dome said:
... what is the maximum temp that the screen will reach with fully loaded batteries ...
With the unit empty, with continuous power applied for over 60 seconds, and no draw at all, the absolute hottest part of the screen (in the inside corner near the bottom) can reach about 480 deg Fahrenheit. This is the absolute max that we allow for. In normal operation, the target temp is 385 deg.
 
magicflight,

Progress

'Socratic Existentialist, MD'
Hello Magic Flight,

I appreciate you taking the time to compose the lengthy reply you posted above.

What I got from it is basically that the screen gets hot enough to cause scorching/blackening (while herbs not touching the screen may remain unvaporized). Additionally, the solution to this problem is to slide the battery in/out while using it to pulse the current (and to control draw technique).

Please correct me if I have misunderstood anything.

If that is what you were saying, I would just like to let you know that I did not get that message at all from the video demo (Were they pulsing the battery?...Was their herb blackened in the end?...). This could be simple miscommunication, but simple miscommunication can lead to the distrust of a company if not resolved.

I also don't know where you drew your conclusions about trends of preferences among smokers/vaporists or what it has to do with my original question.

I am still interested in knowing what one needs to know/do to evenly vaporize their herbs while not charring/scorching them at all (or even releasing some undesired pre-combustion compounds) while using the MF (and to avoid having the experience that CD had with the burnt/blackened herbs)...????

I look foreword to your reply (thank you in advance).

Toke it easy :).
 
Progress,

stickstones

Vapor concierge
I have some more thoughts for you, MF.

In your first few posts you said "In regards to your question about temperature, the average temperature through the load volume tends to be between 380 and 400 Fahrenheit under most conditions. No part of the pack gets hot enough to burn." Unfortunately we are hearing reports of scorching and combustion from your first few users (granted one of them seems to have been a defective unit, but this does not appear to be the case with CD's unit), and now you have mentioned that it can indeed scorch if not used in a particular way. I say this not throw it in your face or be a dick, but because that kind of contradiction will not go unnoticed around here and could potentially damage what you are trying to build here. Although we obviously love getting high and checking in on the forum, not much gets missed here. I think you have an interesting product and appear to be a company worth doing business with, so I would hate to see those things missed due to miscommunication of errors in communication.

Second, I have an opinion as to the two different types of users you have identified and how you are presenting yourself to them. My personal experience in sharing vapor with my friends and family is that it isn't an easy conversion. I find that most smokers want to smoke. Even my smoker friends who come over and love my vaporizers have still not gotten their own (a VG is only $50, so price is not the issue here). So...IMO, marketing to smokers doesn't sell a lot of vaporizers. You would probably sell more of your units to current vaporists as a second or additional vaporizer. Most people here who have been around several months already have more than one vaporizer (I have four already and have only been vaporizing for a year now)...sort of like bongs and glass collections. Therefore, I think designing your product to vaporize at the high end of the spectrum will be less attractive to vaporists and hurt your sales. I, for one, prefer it hot, but tend to be in the minority here about that.

And along that note, I have a VaporGenie (VG) and an I-Inhale (II). I love my VG and am a champ at it. It took some getting used to, but I can get consistent, predictable, thick clouds from it. I liken this unit to the MF...has a learning curve but is (I hope) effective once the technique is down pat. However, since I got my II, I am not interested in using the VG unless I need my most stealthy unit. The brainlessness of the II is fantastic. I turn it on, wait 2 - 5 minutes, then suck down some nice vapor without having to think or get my technique down or anything. Now, it does cost 4 times more than the VG (and only twice as much as the MF), but I love it! Having used both a unit that has a learning curve and one that has no learning curve, I can easily tell you which one I want to use and suggest!
 
stickstones,

magicflight

Manufacturer
Manufacturer
Hi Progress,

In regards to the video -- no pulses were applied, and yes, it is likely that the material touching the screen in the corners was darker than that on the center top. How dark? -- I am not sure. Could there have been some blackening in that test? Yes, it is possible.

In an effort to avoid any future miss-communication, future video will be made to include a dump and spread so that everyone can see what the result is.

The reason I posted our observations/conclusions regarding previous product testing was to provide an explanation for what we are ultimately aiming for in the product, and how/why it influenced design decisions in what we considered to be acceptable trade-offs. In particular, I was trying to point out that this device does not aim to achieve perfect even heating, rather it aims to be fast and reasonably efficient.

I had thought that you were asking me "how do I get the best vaporization performance from this device?". I interpreted this to mean "what techniques do I use to improve evenness in heating?", and I gave some recommendations. If you are asking instead -- "what do I need to do so as to guarantee that I never get any blackening at all?", I must suggest that the Launch Tube may not be the right vaporizer to use. To achieve greater evenness in heating, a device must either use forced convection (more complex and expensive) or more thermal mass (much slower to operate). Our product has neither of these characteristics -- fortunately, there are many others that do.

If it happens that I am still missing the point of your question, I apologize -- please rephrase so that I have a better sense of what you want to know.

-- Magic-Flight
 
magicflight,

magicflight

Manufacturer
Manufacturer
stickstones said:
MF, we posted at the same time...please see my post above your last one.
I just read it -- good points all around.

Basically, what I am hearing is that the device needs to be calibrated to be a lot cooler -- that most owners of existing vaporizers will be expecting to have no possibility of any blackening. Is this correct?

Making cooler is something we can do (since we can set the temperature to whatever is needed), as long as there is some allowance for somewhat longer times of operation. If this is an acceptable consensus, then the necessary adjustments will be made (may take a few weeks). I will keep everyone posted as to the status of this.

-- Magic-Flight
 
magicflight,

djelimon

Well-Known Member
Making cooler is something we can do (since we can set the temperature to whatever is needed), as long as there is some allowance for somewhat longer times of operation. If this is an acceptable consensus, then the necessary adjustments will be made (may take a few weeks). I will keep everyone posted as to the status of this.
Might I suggest you give the members here who have bought units replacement units with the new calibration?

Iffy at 50 Farenhiet? That would be 10 degrees celcius? Surely not, that's basically fall/early spring weather! Please say it ain't so. If so, rather disappointing. I don't vape indoors as a rule, in part because I have a young child in the house and try and keep THC molecules out of his environment. No way could I justify buying a vape for summer use only...:(
 
djelimon,

Clear_Dome

Vaporhead
Glass Blower
ok I just made a vid for my fellow fucker LOL I know it is not super clean but this is the best i can do with my cam , it is good for picture but not for vid . these are the picture before and after and the last picture is the difference between purple days and magic flight duff . I dont want to fuel the fire (as there is no fire) , I jsut want to something to compare for the members .
:peace:

vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0d-vVfHXiKM



this is the best I can get for now with the MF , you know, it's not perfect but not that bad !! I feel like with some modification it can work way better !!

Also the herb look way more dark in real than on the picture #2 , I was near the light as you can see on my finguer , the picture #3 is more like in real
 
Clear_Dome,

magicflight

Manufacturer
Manufacturer
Hi,

When we have units with a lower calibration, they will be made available as replacements to existing purchasers on FC who find that their units are too hot. Until then, we suggest that existing FC purchasers please at least try the current setting if you already have one, as per the intermittent battery control instructions posted above.

In regards the to operation of our product in cold environments, please be aware that there have been only a few tests done in this direction -- nothing comprehensive. We do test outside in strong winds, but do not expect our device to be an "all weather" vape. It is not a solution as a vape in the rain either. As such, I can only make performance claims for the range of ambient conditions we have explicitly checked. It may be possible to operate the Launch Tube in below freezing conditions -- however, it is my impression that a draw of very cold air into the device will prevent it from getting sufficiently hot for vaporization, especially when the unit is itself already very cold. Excellent breath control in these conditions would be most important.

Also, be aware that having us change the calibration point significantly lower will make operation of this device in cold conditions somewhat more unlikely.

-- Magic-Flight.

djelimon said:
Might I suggest you give the members here who have bought units replacement units with the new calibration?

Iffy at 50 Farenhiet? That would be 10 degrees celcius? Surely not, that's basically fall/early spring weather! Please say it ain't so. If so, rather disappointing. I don't vape indoors as a rule, in part because I have a young child in the house and try and keep THC molecules out of his environment. No way could I justify buying a vape for summer use only...:(
 
magicflight,

magicflight

Manufacturer
Manufacturer
Hi CD,

Thank you for posting that video! It definitely helps me to understand more of whats happening in regards to the apparent temp/blackening issues that have been mentioned here on FC.

First of all, your breath control appears good (in my opinion, at least as judging from the movement of the vapor stream). However, your continuous heating times are very long! By inspection, you took two draws, the first consisted of a single uninterrupted heating of appx 50 seconds long and the second was over a minute in length. This is far longer than the recommended 15 second heating interval, and as a result, I would definitely have expected some blackening -- I am actually a bit surprised you had as little as you did (as shown in the final comparison photo -- a solid minute of heating would normally cause smaller loads to be completely blackened, although NOT combusted). For better improved results, every 15 seconds or so, try pushing the battery back from the contact for a few seconds -- at least until you start to see the vapor stream decrease to about half of its max flow, before restoring power/heating.

One of the really nice things about being able to see the vapor stream right above the load is that it provides a real time instant indicator of exactly what is going on in the vape. Use that visibility for feedback to control the unit -- this is what the design intended. In fact, to my knowledge, this is the only vaporizer where this sort of control and immediate visible consequence is even possible. It is a definite opportunity for you to see what is needed. Give the load only as much heat as needed to form vapor and no more. I think that pulling the heat back from time to time will give you much better results than simply keeping the heat on full bore for the whole draw.

I know that the technical video on the MF website shows the draw occurring over one 30 second interval. However, the explicit intent for it was to test/demonstrate the air flow and convection characteristics of the Launch Tube. For people who are wishing to avoid any possibility of moving any part of the material past dark brown, our technical vid is really not an example of best practices.

I hope that this is helpful and/or significantly improves your experience. Please let us know.
-- Magic-Flight

Clear_Dome said:
ok I just made a vid ...

... this is the best I can get for now with the MF , you know, it's not perfect but not that bad !! I feel like with some modification it can work way better !!

Also the herb look way more dark in real than on the picture #2 , I was near the light as you can see on my finguer , the picture #3 is more like in real
 
magicflight,

Clear_Dome

Vaporhead
Glass Blower
thanks a lot for the tips , I will keep trying to find the right timing , look better and better each time but still not that easy , I think that a lower temp , some shorter cupper pin (batteries pole) , a pirex mouth piece (shorter too) will greatly improve the vap .Also do you know someting about flame polishing ? I think it will improve the look of the unit , cause it look ruff imo ...but's that just my opinion soo
 
Clear_Dome,

magicflight

Manufacturer
Manufacturer
Hi CD,

Great!

Question -- a shorter draw tube? The thinking is that it needs to be long enough to allow the eyes to sharp focus on the vape so as to see what is going on. For most people (esp, those over 40), that means 6 inches, min. Are you wanting a short just so you can pack it smaller (and use the pipe without visibility)?

Re Fire polishing -- yes we know about that. Involves a custom tool that is getting worked on -- it is an already scheduled change for production.

-- Magic-Flight

Clear_Dome said:
thanks a lot for the tips , I will keep trying to find the right timing , look better and better each time but still not that easy , I think that a lower temp , some shorter cupper pin (batteries pole) , a pirex mouth piece (shorter too) will greatly improve the vap .Also do you know someting about flame polishing ? I think it will improve the look of the unit , cause it look ruff imo ...but's that just my opinion soo
 
magicflight,

Clear_Dome

Vaporhead
Glass Blower
yes a shorter straw will be more easy to pack in my pocket , same thing for the cupper pin , maybe you can think about a ajustable straw ?! dunno ....also I think that a small ''travel bag'' might be fun too , nothing really complex , just a small bag to drop all the pieces of the vap inside .
 
Clear_Dome,

stickstones

Vapor concierge
magicflight said:
In fact, to my knowledge, this is the only vaporizer where this sort of control and immediate visible consequence is even possible.
The Extreme uses a cyclone bowl and whip system. I look at the bowl to see if the herb is dancing. If it is, I keep that draw speed constant. I also look at the whip tubing for color change that lets me know vapor is being produced. I would expect to be able to do this with just about any whip system.

Also, the Herborizer and the VHW give the user fantastic feedback as they can see the glass pipe filling up. Any system using a glass pipe as a filter will work with this advantage.

If you want to talk portables, the Vaporstar has an option of coming with a little curved pipe made of glass that also gives immediate feedback.

There's probably others; this is just what came off the top of my head.
 
stickstones,

Hennessy1414

Terrorist
^^^
thank you I was about to post that :D

;pd; in my inline is the best vapor feedback I could have....really lets me judge the hits ;)

So every time you load a bowl in the MF it cant be finely grounded? or what im confused. also does it have to be a large bowl loaded in the screen? or will blacken if its a smaller loaded bowl? im cool with that(loading larger bowls every time), just wondering on this end :/

(what I sent to MF on an e-mail)
For what it's worth, I think that the stealth factor is hardly a problem for the MF....like the guy on dopecast said, "its just a quick pulse and the vapors are right there..no waiting or anything. quick sneaky tokes on the vapors pretty much anywhere you please" or something like that ya know. I don't like seeing all of these "complainers" on FC talking about 0 stealth....if it truly gives even vapors in a quick manner like that than who cares what it looks like! if u can stealthy hit a glass pipe undercover in public (fuck combustion!) then I'm sure u can hit a small battery powered vape in the same manner in possibly half the time. I haven't used the product but I'm sure its much easier/stealthy than a pipe. :2c:

:peace:
 
Hennessy1414,

lwien

Well-Known Member
Hennessy1414 said:
^^^
I haven't used the product but I'm sure its much easier/stealthy than a pipe. :2c:

:peace:
Umm, I don't think so. By the looks of it, loading a pipe would be MUCH quicker and easier. You don't have to disassemble a typical pipe to load it.

And with a VG, you can pre-load it and put it in your pocket. It doesn't look like you can do it with this unit.

Hit a pipe, and you're done. No need to modulate a battery and stuff.
 
lwien,

lwien

Well-Known Member
Hennessy1414 said:
modulate? uhh did you see CD's vid? looks pretty simple/easy.



:peace:
Yeah, but he burned it and MF suggested modulating the batt cause the temp got too high.
 
lwien,

magicflight

Manufacturer
Manufacturer
Hi,

Thanks -- I should have indicated I was thinking of portables. I didn't know about that little tube with the Vaporstar -- will have to take a look. Does it show the load, or only the vapor passing through the tube?
My understanding of the Vaporstar is that it is an enclosed/opaque unit -- but I do not own one, so cannot be sure.

If you think of others, please let me know.

For future reference (for anyone reading this thread), my posts/comments are in regards to portable equipment (no mains cord), unless indicated otherwise. There are no intentions to develop any desktop products.

-- Magic-Flight

stickstones said:
If you want to talk portables, the Vaporstar has an option of coming with a little curved pipe made of glass that also gives immediate feedback.

There's probably others; this is just what came off the top of my head.
 
magicflight,

magicflight

Manufacturer
Manufacturer
Hi,

lwien said:
Yeah, but he burned it and MF suggested modulating the batt cause the temp got too high.
Previously, I have been asked to be very careful and strict qualifying my claims. It would not be unfair to ask others posting claims in this thread to adhere to a similar standard themselves as they would ask of me. In particular, there are important and significant differences between "browned", "blackened", "scorched", and "burned".

For clarification, "burned" indicates that a sustainable oxygen reaction has been initiated (a visible 'cherry' or other evidence of an exothermic reaction such as smoke). Absolute evidence of combustion is the presence of certain inorganic salts (ash) and identifiable regions of charcoal (more than 50% carbon). "Scorched" indicates a condition where the surface of the material has been heated to carbonization AND the volume of the material is still cold. Scorched is evidenced absolutely by an oil front between the parts that are cold and those which have been over-heated. "Blackened" indicates a condition were the volume of the material has been heated to the point where essentially only carbon remains (cell wall fibers have decomposed). "Browned" indicates a condition where the material has been noticeably discolored due to the action of heat, but does not show evidence of cell wall destruction/carbonization. These terms are identifiable, distinguishable, and non-interchangeable, so using them distinctly is important for clarity when posting in a forum of people who obviously care a lot about such matters.

The photographic evidence presented by CD indicates unambiguously that only browning and some blackening has occurred. It is suggested that the level of blackening can be reduced and/or eliminated using a simple procedure -- a procedure consistent with Launch Tube stated design intentions -- since that has been the particular type of information requested from us about this device.

Also, for the record, it is true that there has once previously been a report of burning, and this has been acknowledged as definitely defective unit. While we would obviously prefer that such things never happen, a replacement was sent immediately at no cost. Any unit that results in ignition under normal operating conditions is by definition failed, and will be replaced under the functional warranty.

Furthermore, although the term has been used, there has been so far no evidence posted of any genuine scorching. Neither have any of our tests or our testers ever shown any indication that explicit scorching has occurred, or is even possible. However, we remain open to the possibility of the unexpected, and will listen/read the posted comments of all users in this respect.

-- Magic-Flight
 
magicflight,
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