Is Brass Safe?

[vtac]

Good point about the ammunition. It was on a page dealing with the casings specifically so that didn't click. I figured it was boilerplate but posted it since it was on a page dealing with the same type of brass.

I admit I am playing the pessimist here, might as well considering the accusations have already been leveled against me.

No safe threshold for lead exposure has been discoveredthat is, there is no known amount of lead that is too small to cause the body harm.

is what I'm going on here. Surely there has to be some 'safe' amount.

Let's assume a vaporizer has 100g of brass in it. Assuming it contains 0.07% lead that would be 0.07g of lead in total. So, for the sake of argument let's say you ingest 0.005g of lead, using it over a period of 5 years. Is that significant?

We need a scientist.

 

[lwien]

I admit I am playing the pessimist here, might as well considering the accusations have already been leveled against me.

Muffinglinguistserinizermeinbauermefooklinggasbenheim !!!

 

[FEAR420]

I admit I am playing the pessimist here, might as well considering the accusations have already been leveled against me.

Muffinglinguistserinizermeinbauermefooklinggasbenheim !!!

So what exactly does this post contribute to? The thread or your post count?

 

[lwien]

I admit I am playing the pessimist here, might as well considering the accusations have already been leveled against me.

Muffinglinguistserinizermeinbauermefooklinggasbenheim !!!

So what exactly does this post contribute to? The thread or your post count?

It's kind of what happens when I try to say something, and it comes out all jumbled up.

I never could understand the concept of why anyone would be concerned about their post count though. That never made any sense to me.

So in answer to your question as to what it contributed? Absolutely nothing, although it was a stab at a bit of humor and a bit of comic relief and it was really meant for vtac. Guess it didn't go over to well with ya. Oh well, can't win 'em all.

But in the whole scheme of things, I think I contribute quite a bit, so one useless post isn't so bad, is it? I can delete it if you really feel that it disrupts the flow of this thread though.

 

[vtac]

Back on topic, here's something of interest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_lead_level

Blood lead level (BLL), is a measure of lead in the body. It is measured in micrograms of lead per deciliter of blood (?g/dL); 10 g/dL is equivalent to 0.48 micromoles per liter (mol/L).

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) states that a BLL of 10 ?g/dL or above is a cause for concern. However, lead can impair development even at BLLs below 10 ?g/dL.

A human has about 5 liters of blood, or 50dL.

10 micrograms = 0.00001 grams, so 0.00001 * 50 which works out to 0.0005g. Using the example in post #126, the 100g of "lead-free" brass seemingly contains enough lead (0.07g @ 0.07%) to poison ~140 people. According to the CDC at least.

So can this even be applied to our theoretical case? I have no idea. I'm a monkey in a space ship here, my math is probably off too... Just trying to understand.

 

[obelisk]

Back on topic, here's something of interest: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_lead_level

Blood lead level (BLL), is a measure of lead in the body. It is measured in micrograms of lead per deciliter of blood (?g/dL); 10 g/dL is equivalent to 0.48 micromoles per liter (mol/L).

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) states that a BLL of 10 ?g/dL or above is a cause for concern. However, lead can impair development even at BLLs below 10 ?g/dL.

A human has about 5 liters of blood, or 50dL.

10 micrograms = 0.00001 grams, so 0.00001 * 50 which works out to 0.0005g. Using the example in post #126, the 100g of "lead-free" brass seemingly contains enough lead (0.07g @ 0.07%) to poison ~140 people. According to the CDC at least.

So can this even be applied to our theoretical case? I have no idea. I'm a monkey in a space ship here, my math is probably off too... Just trying to understand.

you have to consider how much lead is being leached out of the brass because of the hot air. the brass could be 90% lead. how much of it will be leached out into the vapor path. and at what rate. that is what you are concerned about. you are assuming 100%. is that relevant or even useful?

assume 100g of brass used. assume 0.07% lead in it. assume that the vaporizer reaches temps hot enough to leach the lead. assume that the lead is leached out 100%. assume it gets leached out all at once. are the numbers large enough to cause lead poisoning. this is your absolute theoretical worst case scenario. ok great. but does it clarify anything at all?

 

[lwien]

The question though, is what happens over time. Any amount of lead that enters your body stays in your body, so even though the exposure may be super, super small, it's all cumulative. So that's the other part of the equation, that is, how many exposures does one get, and over what period of time.

Like I said way back in this thread, I don't believe that we're going to come up with any answers here, and that it is very much a personal decision regarding the risk/reward ratio for each person, and in this case, if we really don't know what the actual risk is, or even if there is any risk at all, the question that then has to be asked is if the "possibility" of any risk is worth the reward, considering that there are other vapes on the market that we know does not contain any brass at all, eh?

The answer to that is a personal one, and again, is not a right or wrong issue and is just a personal one that we all need to make.

 

[wthanna]

At least now there are actual numbers to work with. The "risk" to someone that is 20 years old, that takes 10 hits a day and intends to do this 365 days a year for the next 80 years is different than the risk to the 80 year old who takes a hit or two a day. (depending on whether you believe there is any risk at all or not) Each must make that decision for themselves, hopefully based on as much factual information as possible.

 

[Purple-Days]

The metals we are talking about are alloys. Finally (see post #3) Rick finds the alloy numbers (C260) and shares them, on one portion of his airpath, the tubing. (BTW there are other components to Rick's airpath. The top disk and sleeve are not mentioned at all. )

As stated the heatsink is c260 so the alloy is the same and has the properties listed below.

So the following only applies to the tubing and heat sink.

BTW alloy numbers are there so that you know what you are buying. C260 is C260 is C260.

Here is a the data on alloy C260.
http://www.matweb.com/search/DataSheet.aspx?MatGUID=1f5de188b4894cf7afecabdb71aa1e48
"Data sheets for over 77,000 metals, plastics, ceramics, and composites."

Lead, Pb <= 0.070 %

To most folks that number must sound tiny. To put that number in perspective, consider this, 0.080 % Blood Alcohol Level is legally drunk. 'But officer it's a tiny amount."

Ah, but 0.07% is legally sober... Well not exactly sober, but declared to be legal.

So the same can be said for Lead. Lead Free doesn't mean Zero Lead in the legal sense, and in the way the salesman represented his product, he is 100% correct, but not necessarily 100 % free of lead. BTW here is how K & S describes themselves, "Full Line Metal Specialists - Tubing, Shapes, Wire, Tools and Accessories for the Hobbyist" not as 'these guys make most of what is available in the US' as Rick would tell us.

You may notice my signature says 100% Lead and Toxin Free. Not 'Lead Free'. There is a difference. <= 0.070% difference.


I'll give you some more 'real' data to chew on. An MSDS is a great place to get information (as mentioned earlier).
http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927204

Scroll down to Section 7: Handling and Storage
"Storage: Keep container tightly closed. Keep in a cool well-ventilated area."

Another MSDS...
http://www.jtbaker.com/msds/englishhtml/L2347.htm
"store in cool, dry, ventillated area" ... "Areas in which exposure to lead metal or lead compounds may occur should be identified by signs or appropriate means, and access to the area should be limited to authorized persons."

Keep Lead cool and store in a well ventillated area?
Hmmm "Put this in your vape and suck a bit.", as Rick says.

Oh, but you are talking about Lead. Yes I am, that's what this whole thread is about, Lead, Pb. See post #60 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass#Lead_content
"This lead is present on the surface of the material, and thus presents a health concern similar to that of pure lead."

And you just have to ponder the significance of this one,
"No safe threshold for lead exposure has been discoveredthat is, there is no known amount of lead that is too small to cause the body harm."

 

[DevoTheStrange]

At least now there are actual numbers to work with. The "risk" to someone that is 20 years old, that takes 10 hits a day and intends to do this 365 days a year for the next 80 years is different than the risk to the 80 year old who takes a hit or two a day. (depending on whether you believe there is any risk at all or not) Each must make that decision for themselves, hopefully based on as much factual information as possible.

those are my exact thoughts on the issue.... if you are in the last few decades of your life this wont matter as much... but if you are young it matters much more so because you have more time to build up levels of heavy metals in your blood.
one of the reasons I don't eat fish (especially predator fish) that often is because of mercury content. Everything is a cumulative process with heavy metals. . . a little each day will become one massive dose in the end

 

[obelisk]

^^ wouldn't the legal procedure that eventually led to restrictions on lead percentages in alloys-- something of considerable financial consequence-- take cumulative exposure into consideration during the deliberation process? hopefully and optimistically, etc. etc., man, i hope so. good point though, thanks.

this is so unlike me. trusting the govt. offering legalese in the hope of making a point. the things we do to have a voice. man. what a thing this world makes me.

 

[the electrician]

i bet half he people in here couldnt give two shits about the health consequences and just want to slag off the myrtle zap guy. how come this slides?

 

[DevoTheStrange]

^^ wouldn't the legal procedure that eventually led to restrictions on lead percentages in alloys-- something of considerable financial consequence-- take cumulative exposure into consideration during the deliberation process? hopefully and optimistically, etc. etc., man, i hope so. good point though, thanks.

this is so unlike me. trusting the govt. offering legalese in the hope of making a point. the things we do to have a voice. man. what a thing this world makes me.

I believe they do take in cumulative exposure into consideration, but I think the kicker is with that they are assuming that the metals will be used in a standardized way. They don't taking into account everything that can possibly done with the material. Just assuming most people will use it the same way in certain circumstances.
It is impossible to test every application someone may think up, but easy to come up with a rough idea of what the majority of people will use it for and test in those regards.

 

[pyronym]

1 we all agree that lead is not safe but this I think that sums it up for everyone. So maybe we could just put this thread back where it belongs in ABV

2 as this thread is supposed to be about brass not lead and not "any specific manufacturers" vape the mods should remove all posts that refer to that manufacturer from this thread. This thread is in no way vendor neutral.

3 If we really wanted to know how safe the use of brass is the next time any one of the users the vape that everyone is bitching about just ask your doc for a blood lead test. I wouldn't ask Rick to do this because he has exposure to a much higher degree as he is assembling the vapes. But I will promise that the next time I go to the doc's I will ask for a blood lead test. I am a several time a day user so it should give an idea of what the average users lead levels are. If Rick were to get the test done and the results show up fine then we all know it's safe.

The only problem that I see with any of us getting the test done is if the results come back negative(no lead) I'm sure there will be a couple of people here that will demand we post copies of our blood test results. then when we post them with our personal information blanked out they will probably claim that the test results are fake or from someone else.

There should be a thread as someone else mentioned about all materials if this thread is really not vendor specific.

 

[pyronym]

well this is scary brass being 75% copper
Copper Cookware is Excellent for Certain Uses
One other surface favored by chefs for sauces and sauts is copper, which excels at quick warm-ups and even heat distribution. Since copper can leak into food in large amounts when heated, the cooking surfaces are usually lined with tin or stainless steel.
See I'm unbiased
Now stainless steel can also leak into food but I guess the amounts may be lower but from the same site
Stainless Steel Cookware Combines Different Metals In fact, stainless steel is really a mixture of several different metals, including nickel, chromium and molybdenum, all of which can trickle into foods. However, unless your stainless steel cookware is dinged and pitted, the amount of metals likely to get into your food is negligible.

Essentially what we are doing is cooking our herb so I guess you are damned if you do damned if you don't I don't want lead poisoning but I also don't want to risk Iron, Nickel, or chromium poisoning.
Tons of sites all have the same info. It seems like a few of the sites I've seen say that brass is acceptable for cooking that the risk is minute. but in the end the risk is what each one of us is willing to take

a couple of sites with information on cookware and metals

http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hl-vs/iyh-vsv/prod/cook-cuisinier-eng.php
http://environment.about.com/od/healthenvironment/a/safecookware.htm


here's a warning to look out for on any brass cookware
http://goosebay-workshops.com/ABOUT-BRASS-COPPER-COOKWARE-PLEASE-READ-

Canada makes all copper and brass cookware be coated with nickel(I guess it's inert) as a precaution.
http://www.hc-sc.gc.ca/hl-vs/iyh-vsv/prod/cook-cuisinier-eng.php

There are tons of other results but I figured this was enough it still won't keep me from using my zap

 

[momofthegoons]

2 as this thread is supposed to be about brass not lead and not "any specific manufacturers" vape the mods should remove all posts that refer to that manufacturer from this thread. This thread is in no way vendor neutral.

I agree. And I know you guys aren't questioning Rick's integrity! :/

 

[Rick]

So nice to see "The Born Again Brass is Unsafe" thread take shape as it was always intended when reopened, even though there is "no hidden agenda" says VTAC.
I will respond to specific allegations about AZ/MZ and me in my thread where it belongs. I must say I still do not copy/paste Toms posts as I should when I first see them. They sure do change alot in just a short time.
I will say there is one topic everybody is ignoring here(well, most anyway)that relates directly to the subject. I will address that on the AZ/MZ thread too.
In closing(on this thread) I want to say I communicated more with the untrusty salesman and he gave me some more info that will be of interest to all.
For now though, a trip to town on a Friday afternoon so I will be awhile before I get over to AZ/MZ.
And lastly and most important. Thank you Tom for being who you are. I just wish you would keep your original posts up.

 

[Purple-Days]

Somehow I had hit the smiles exemption button and things like were coming up rolleyes with the bracketed colons instead of how they should look. I also probably added a comma or two. Go ahead Rik, make things up as you go along. Wing it buddy, it's how you work, you have said so.

BTW you dragged the PD name into this since the thread was re-opened. Again everybody is wrong but you.

And to stay on topic the question 'Is Brass Safe?". Maybe the OP didn't define the question clearly enough, but it is obviously aimed at the fact that brass alloys can contain Lead. Not knowing until today what alloy certain mfgs. were using has been troubling to many folks. Now that folks know, they can make a more informed decision.

 

[the electrician]

BTW you dragged the PD name into this since the thread was re-opened. Again everybody is wrong but you.

ACTUALLY it was that lwien guy since it appears everytime in his damn signature. being pedantic is the name of the game here

 

[lwien]

......that lwien guy.

Pedantic. I had to look that word up. Great word. Gotta remember it the next time I play Scrabble. Thanks electrician. I LOVE learning new words.

/salute

 

[reece]

BTW you dragged the PD name into this since the thread was re-opened. Again everybody is wrong but you.

Did Rick mention the PD other than to say the Zap uses the same resistor? That is the only reference I can find. I may have missed it though. Could you provide the statement which, in your mind, "dragged the PD name into...the thread?"

Unless by "dragged" you mean he mentioned the PD. He did mention the PD. But to me, dragged has a negative connotation. It means Rick brought the PD up in a negative manner. Is that how you mean it?

It would be helpful if you would start providing some support for your accusations.

 

[Purple-Days]

From post #83 :
Rick says, "I have been using your brass tubing for close to ten years in a product I make."


Since you have been using the same brass for ten years, we can pull a heat exchanger, or heatport as you like to call it, from any older Zap for this test. Why not the one that Pammy and I breathed through for a couple of years?

This is a test using the Pro-Lab Lead Surface Test Kit product #LS104 on the Aromazap heatport. Under $15 at most hardware stores. Test your vape. This is shot without editing and is the first time I have used this test on the Aromazap. Rick's word that he was using Brass, with Lead added, see the FAQ on his site, was good enough for me, but recently there seems some doubt if his Brass has Lead or not.

One way to find out, test it.

Watch the YouTube Video Here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GyA_Z4y3W3I

Info on the test at www.prolabinc.com

 

[lwien]

What's kinda weird, Rick, is that you do clearly state in your FAQ on your site ("We do use brass tubing in the manufacture of the heatport assembly and the vapor stem tips. Brass contains a very tiny amount of lead.") and yet in post #94, you said, "So the heat exchanger is "lined" with the NO LEAD brass tubing.", "The air is then heated and passes thru the NO LEAD brass heatport tube and through the NO LEAD stem tip, into the contents of the NO LEAD brass stem tip". The statements in your FAQ and the statements in your post seem to contradict one another, no?

(Maybe this post belongs in the Zap thread. If so, I apologize and will repost there if the mods see fit.)

 

[Purple-Days]

Why is that paper pink? An even harder question after the recent posts.

 

[the electrician]

but overall the thing is rohs compliant, just like yours right?

ive noticed youre acting very childish for such an old man