Grasshopper / Zenpen Concerns and Considerations

[Custom Flower Hardware]

Big statement to make, do you have proof to back it up?

I have as much proof as yous do that this is a fraud

 

[t-dub]

Its not really about the battery, the battery is the same tech that everyone else has access to accept its in a custom shape. The reason we have good performance / battery life is a result of the whole system. First there's the heating element which is designed extremely efficiently. It can heat the air entering the vape extremely quickly and with our software, on demand. This means the vape can idle at a much lower temperature, extending its battery life. Our insulation is unlike anything else vape manufacturers are using. Its requires very challenging production methods and without extensive chemical engineering knowledge, is not possible. Now because the heating is on demand and only needs bursts of power, the outside temperature never gets very high. Lots of insulation, short bursts of heating, and a compact heating zone work together to keep it cool. When in use it may warm up a tiny bit. If you left it turned on and set it down it will not heat up on the outside at all. Unless its sitting in the sun or something...

Ahhhhh . . . thank you for connecting the dots on that. So now my thought is how do they avoid tunneling? Without conduction do they really understand vaporization? This "compact heating zone" they are creating is going to be very interesting . . .

 

[nopartofme]

Trevor also responded on reddit:

After reading through the whole thread, I find this very disappointing and hurtful. The accusations and claims are very personally upsetting.

It's insane that we have been accused of posting on Reddit and on other forums with fake accounts. The reality is, we have done none of this ever. Not a single time. We asked our core contributors to spread the word on Reddit, and they did. Do all the IP address tracing you want. The extent of our involvement was asking for people who supported the campaign to spread the word. Some obviously went way overboard. If it looked liked I stopped posting on said threads, it's because I can only say what I have said here. You can either believe me or not. There is little point in arguing about it.

About my personal account accusation here on reddit. I can only say I made the posts I did in good faith. I honestly don't even remember asking if these were "the final colors?" but apparently I did. If you look at my account, you can see I was new to Reddit, but I don't remember exactly what I was thinking at the time. If this was a misguided mistake in astroturfing I sincerely apologize.

About the Spacecow posts: This was Conrad's brother, which I agree is close enough to astroturfing. You'll notice that it has not happened again, to my knowledge. We genuinely sorry about this.

Questioning our business model with little knowledge about the product is outrageous. I am not going to go into the specifics of our strategy or approach, but you can see for yourself that two retailers are already on board. I will add that $99 is the Indiegogo price, and absolutely not the retail price. Additionally, we're the only ones paying Paypal fees. The contributors don't pay a cent to Paypal.

Furthermore, making assumptions our battery chemistry or capacity are pointless. Could how effectively we use that power play a part. Software? An accelerometer to monitor usage patterns and conserve power? Having little idea of how the device works, while saying flat out that it cannot be done and "defies laws of physics" seems a bit extreme.

We've said since the beginning that we have no interest in making money on our batteries. $5 is our wholesale price, and we are passing this price onto you because we hate proprietary batteries just as much as you do.

This community's bad past experiences are in no way a reflection of us. If you look at most consumer products released, very very few take the approach we have been, in connecting with core community and being as open as we can. We are here everyday, trying to answer questions and fulfill the demands of the online crowd because that's what we value. Our only goal from the very beginning has been to build an awesome vape.

It's insane to me that we catch so much flack for our price tag of $99 during the campaign. There have been so many overpriced vapes that it's easy to expect something good to cost at least twice as much. So we get "to good to be true" all too often. Maybe we didn't need 3 million in R&D money because we put 1000s of our own hours in, 16 hours a day for free, before even mentioning the product to anyone. Might this play a part in how we can offer it at a great price?

It seems unfair to me that a FC mod would make this post when it's mostly speculation. As a mod, you hold great respect in the community and I have no doubt this will affect our campaign negatively. When a reporter writes a story, he gets the facts right before going forward because he knows his story will affect the people he is writing about. You could have at least contacted us before this post. My direct email has always been publicly available. The fact that this was not done is what disappoints me the most.

All this said, I know I cannot personally convince you. I understand 3rd party reviews are necessary, and like I have said, we are working on getting prototypes that we can get unbiased reviews on. This takes time. I honestly cannot disclose every aspect of the design, now or ever, as it would seriously jeopardize our IP.

When it comes down to it, no one is forcing you to support us. These threads do nothing but take away valuable time that we need to finish the Grasshopper. Additionally, they greatly dishearten us. The individuals that compose our team have all sacrificed greatly to get us this far, and we have tried to be as open and honest as possible since the very beginning. Getting this kind of response for our efforts simply feels bad.

For those who don't recall, I believe Conrad is the representative here on FC. Just wanted to make it clear that these are two different people speaking.

 

[lwien]

What I find ridiculous is members of this forum, who by their own admission did not even support the campaign, making demands of us.

So let me get this straight. You believe that anyone that challenges a vape manufacturer should either have vested dollars in the company or have purchased a product from that company and if they haven't, they should just keep their mouth shut? Is that what you believe?

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

I have as much proof as yous do that this is a fraud

I never claimed this to be a fraud. You claimed that every vape manufacturer astroturfs/shills.

You could have at least contacted us before this post. My direct email has always been publicly available. The fact that this was not done is what disappoints me the most.

This bit is odd. If it were a case of astroturfing, wouldn't they just say it wasn't them if they were asked that? How many companies would admit to that?

What I find ridiculous is members of this forum, who by their own admission did not even support the campaign, making demands of us.

@Zenpen We question everything and everyone. Allow me to redirect you to the VaporBros Dabbler thread:

http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/vapor-brothers-dabbler.8595/#post-357043

Wherein OF questions VB's claim of a microcontroller-regulated temperature feature. Is that really ridiculous?

 

[KidFated.]

I can't wait for a full, unedited video with abv.. I WILL NOT invest money into something that not one other person has used, besides the creators. Sketchy.

If i was a vape company. I would send some out to testers, such as magazines and FC mods so everyone knew where their money was going..

 

[Hoof Hearted]

I can't wait for a full, unedited video with abv.. I WILL NOT invest money into something that not one other person has used, besides the creators. Sketchy.

If i was a vape company. I would send some out to testers, such as magazines and FC mods so everyone knew where their money was going..

They can't do that.

It would slow down production too much and nobody would get their vapes in time.

 

[Snappo]

They can't do that.

It would slow down production and nobody would get their vapes in time.

If there aren't ten prototypes to send out to testers, invite ten testers over to try out one prototype.

 

[KidFated.]

They can't do that.

It would slow down production and nobody would get their vapes in time.

Id rather it be late and know its tha shit, than get it on time and realize, "wow, should've just bought a bag"

@Snappo has tha right idea..

 

[t-dub]

Ahhhhh . . . thank you for connecting the dots on that. So now my thought is how do they avoid tunneling? Without conduction do they really understand vaporization? This "compact heating zone" they are creating is going to be very interesting . . .

Bad form to quote myself but I'm vaked sorry . . thinking out loud . . . so we have a focused heat source almost like a laser in a very compact "zone" of medicine. But we have to distribute that heat to vaporize properly without tunneling. But once we distribute the heat it "leaks" because we are refocusing it. So I'm thinking we have a limited "window" of operation on this device that will change as things heat up . . .

 

[Custom Flower Hardware]

Boiling, boiling, boiling...Ahhhh creation of non-sense thread!

 

[lwien]

Boiling, boiling, boiling...Ahhhh creation of non-sense thread!

Do you believe that challenging the marketing tactics and promotion of a vape company, any vape company, is non-sense?

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

Do you believe that challenging the marketing tactics and promotion of a vape company, any vape company, is non-sense?

Not to make any sort of personal attacks, but he still hasn't provided us with proof that every other vape manufacturer shills...

Bad form to quote myself but I'm vaked sorry . . thinking out loud . . . so we have a focused heat source almost like a laser in a very compact "zone" of medicine. But we have to distribute that heat to vaporize properly without tunneling. But once we distribute the heat it "leaks" because we are refocusing it. So I'm thinking we have a limited "window" of operation on this device that will change as things heat up . . .

We still don't know what the heat source looks like, it could be something like a ceramic rod with a spiral past that where the air tumbles and evenly warms up. The ABV from the second video didn't really show any hotspots, it all appeared to be the same shade instead of half green half yellow like if it did have a hotspot/tunnel effect.

 

[Custom Flower Hardware]

I believe that out of the 1660 people that contributed, 4 or 5 conjuring up this and that negative whatever doesn't really matter to the majority. By all means, keep on keepin on! Hey maybe that wasn't even a real guy puffin on their video. Maybe it was photographic trickery, or a computer generated guy like the crowds in the titantic flick. This argument is just as valid as the others going around, right?? Sounds as obsurd IMO. Hey ZP, don't reply or do a video or anything but what you know you need to do. We are all anxiously awaiting your release and this is just too amusing. Replies from you just give ammo to the herd. No replies, well, that will double it and I for sure am enjoying all the actionAs for my prior statement the vape makers do this to keep their finger on the pulse of the vape community, not necessarily to shrill or anything negative. Statement amended. (thanks Obama for the lesson)

Do you believe that challenging the marketing tactics and promotion of a vape company, any vape company, is non-sense?

I believe that the marketing and promotion is their business. Remember Southpark when Cartman had the theme park and told everyone they couldn't get in? What a tatic! Here is your next gen vape! But you can't beta test, or have a video, or even get a response, boy I can see them hitting 300 G's!

(merged)

 

[lwien]

I believe that out of the 1660 people that contributed, 4 or 5 conjuring up this and that negative whatever doesn't really matter to the majority. By all means, keep on keepin on! Hey maybe that wasn't even a real guy puffin on their video. Maybe it was photographic trickery, or a computer generated guy like the crowds in the titantic flick. This argument is just as valid as the others going around, right?? Sounds as obsurd IMO. Hey ZP, don't reply or do a video or anything but what you know you need to do. We are all anxiously awaiting your release and this is just too amusing. Replies from you just give ammo to the herd. No replies, well, that will double it and I for sure am enjoying all the actionAs for my prior statement the vape makers do this to keep their finger on the pulse of the vape community, not necessarily to shrill or anything negative. Statement amended. (thanks Obama for the lesson)

A bit condescending there, aren't ya?

 

[Custom Flower Hardware]

A bit condescending there, aren't ya?

Venting done guys lets move on in harmony!

 

[lwien]

I believe that the marketing and promotion is their business.

The marketing and promotion tactics of ANY vape manufacturer IS our business. To suggest that possible future end users should not question any vape manufacturer on their marketing campaigns is ludicrous.

 

[Custom Flower Hardware]

The marketing and promotion tactics of ANY vape manufacturer IS our business. To suggest that possible future end users should not question any vape manufacturer on their marketing campaigns is ludicrous.

Agreed. But in the end, they will do what is best for them and their business

 

[lwien]

Agreed. But in the end, they will do what is best for them and their business

Of course they will. Why in the hell would they do anything different. All we're doing is providing some different perspectives from the eyes of a very skeptical community. What they do with that is their choice. Always will be, but that doesn't diminish the dialogue that has been put forth here and your attempt to invalidate it really serves no purpose, either for this community or GH.

 

[Custom Flower Hardware]

Just trying to steer the conversation in the direction of talking about the product which is difficult being it is not released yet and quite frankly the dialogue in this thread is well off track and annoying to me PEACE OUT

 

[KidFated.]

If a threads annoys me, i unwatch it.

 

[lwien]

Just trying to steer the conversation in the direction of talking about the product which is difficult being it is not released yet and quite frankly the dialogue in this thread is well off track.....

Shay, the dialog in this thread is NOT off track. It is exactly on track. The purpose of this thread, as stated by sticks, was to discuss their marketing tactics and that is exactly what we're doing.

 

[KidFated.]

I just realized something.. If i was making a vaporizer.. I would use it a ton to put it through its paces.. It wouldn't be that hard to film a session..

 

[grokit]

@Zenpen, thanks for wading in !

I believe the fact that they just said "Its not a completely finished product with reviews, if it was, I can tell you, it wouldn't be on indiegogo in the first place." is a strange choice of words in my mind. What does that even mean?

I could be mistaken, but doesn't it mean it's pretty much like any other indiegogo product?

They can't do that.
It would slow down production too much and nobody would get their vapes in time.

It may be a question of having any ideally-functioning prototype, even a single one. It may be that no single prototype even satisfies the makers, and that they themselves have to wait to try an ideally-functioning unit.

It's been stated that it's more about real money, not unit cost once production starts because it would be too expensive to stop and make any significant tooling changes at that point.


I understand the skepticism, I've been dissatisfied by a few under-performing pen vapes myself. And yes some of these companies outright lied. I can see how many would hedge their bets and if this doesn't work out I may be one of those people next time. But I have a good feeling about this one.

The grasshopper has a different form factor but seems no smaller than the pax. The pax is a successful herb vaporizer, but with plenty of room for improvement. If the grasshopper isn't the herb pen we've been waiting for, then it will still come. Just a question of from who and when.

As a backer I am placing a bet, that the fellas at grasshopper are genuine, whiz-bang rocket scientists that still have their idealism and truly want to make a positive difference in the medical mj/vape world.

As has been stated ad nauseum, if you don't want to take this ride then don't buy the ticket

But buying that bag of weed instead isn't always a sure bet either...

If the product flops, the skeptics will be justifiably smug and get the last laugh while the backers become skeptics. If it's a success the backers will have the bragging rights of a discounted unit at an early date, like hundreds of others and retain their faith in humanity. It's really no big deal either way.

I wonder what @Josh's Dad thinks?


Seriously, I just discovered this thread about an hour ago, because of it and I have decided that I may make a change in my contribution: from green back to my original ti choice, dark grey

 

[THC SCIENTIFIC]

@Quetzalcoatl OF asked the question and accepted their answer. No proof of this capability exists in ecig territory or essential oil industry. Yet this thread is questioning zenpen and won't accept their explanation yet it's possible for this company to do it and for it to be done given enough money.


As for this company anything is possible. Let's give them the benefit of doubt. I for one can't wait to see this thing in action. As it will revolutionize the industry and pretty much make everything else useless even our line. If we didnt have a R&D section :-p you know what they say ideas don't just come to one person it comes to many it just who acts on it first that gets the credit.

As for insulation one thing I have to disagree on is heat expands and it needs to go somewhere.

In zenpens statement they said insulation is nothing current vape companies are using.

Might be correct about the current part not sure about the future part as I'm aware of 1 company experimenting with a process that doesn't take chemists to figure out. I might be wrong but I do think it's the same path we are both on.


As for everyone else that's skeptical just because the current industry can't make it doesn't mean a new comer can't do it. Anyone remember Sept 2011? It's only bs when they cant deliver.


@Zenpen don't worry about FC we are skeptical of new technology it goes with the territory. Get ready to make history if you really have the mother of all vapes and enjoy the ride as well forgive once we see it in action or nail you to the wall if it fails.