Dynavap VapCap

[Skunkport]

I’ve never experienced the swelling you’re speaking of?

You may well have experienced it, you just haven't noticed. Those O rings are so small you probably wouldn't notice a 50% swelling unless you were trying to actually fit it while swollen.

The point is that the viton changes properties at high temp. It starts to lose its shape, harden and otherwise degrade.

I have silicone o-rings that I’ve used for months with the mold flashing still visible. Viton would be flat as pancake, worn smooth and hard as a rock.

I can't find anywhere that mentions viton performing like that at high temperatures, where are you getting that from exactly?
Everybody who currently has a 2018M has the viton rings unless they've changed them. Has anyone's became flat, smooth or hard?
Remember that they're rated as able to handle 300c for short periods. Your vape should never be getting that hot.

As for accidentally torching the O-ring, you would have to be hitting the body or stem with the flame to also hit that o-ring. After a year or so of watching this thread I’ve yet to hear of any of us FCers melting the exposed o-ring. Further, viton is far more harmful if you burn it than the silicone.

Really? Here's a picture, the O-ring is 2cm from where I've been heating the cap, you're telling me everybody has steady enough hands and posture to keep a flame away from it while stoned? It doesn't melt btw, it oxidises into a white powder after a few seconds in a flame.

I don't know what is released when viton or silicone are burnt, do you have any reference for that?

 

[stardustsailor]

The point is that the viton changes properties at high temp. It starts to lose its shape, harden and otherwise degrade.

I have silicone o-rings that I’ve used for months with the mold flashing still visible. Viton would be flat as pancake, worn smooth and hard as a rock.

I second to that !
At first I was quite reluctant about using those VMQ o-rings.
You were the one that posted the link to those o-rings.

( A big THANX to you ! )

As I researched further and further about FKM elastomers ,
my worries kept rising. So I gave a shot on those VMQ ones.
Amazing o-rings.
'nough said .-

As for accidentally torching the O-ring, you would have to be hitting the body or stem with the flame to also hit that o-ring. After a year or so of watching this thread I’ve yet to hear of any of us FCers melting the exposed o-ring. Further, viton is far more harmful if you burn it than the silicone.

Yes ,none has scored in that field yet.
And let us hope that none ever will.
But the possibility remains .

Furthemore I really do not like the idea of heated fluorine-containing elastomers
being inside my vapour path.


And couple of things-to remember- about burning / burned Viton :

-If someone accidentally breathes -even a small amount of -the fumes ,has to seek immediate medical care.
-If someone accidentally touched the scorched o-ring ,-once again-has to seek immediate medical care.

Cheers.

 

[Chiron]

Ha! I was born in the forties...I could use a little of that cream...maybe in gallon jugs. Maybe for more than my face

And here thought that your handle represented your sun sign

 

[stardustsailor]

I can't find anywhere that mentions viton performing like that at high temperatures, where are you getting that from exactly?

Applications
Fluoroelastomer compounds are widely used in the chemical, automotive, aerospace, and energy industry. They are used for hoses, diaphragms, accumulator bladders, gaskets, O-rings and seals, all operating in especially harsh environments.

The typical service temperature of FKMs is between -20°C (-5°F) and +230°C (+445°F). They can, however, withstand temperatures up to 300°C for a short period of time. However, at high service temperatures FKMs are weak, so that the design must prevent any high loads.

http://polymerdatabase.com/Elastomers/FKM.html

Everybody who currently has a 2018M has the viton rings unless they've changed them. Has anyone's became flat, smooth or hard?
Remember that they're rated as able to handle 300c for short periods. Your vape should never be getting that hot.

Well ,I 've all sorts of Viton o-rings .
brown ones ,black ones and the new gray ones .
Yes ,they all become flat and hard,with time.
It may take few months ,but eventually they will become like that.
Oftenly, they become unable to provide a firm hold /fit .

it oxidises into a white powder after a few seconds in a flame.
I don't know what is released when viton or silicone are burnt, do you have any reference for that?

Please,tell me that you haven't torched a Viton o-ring ...


https://www.calpaclab.com/content/v/images/custom/Viton-MSDS.pdf

Hydrogen fluoride is generated upon combustion of many fluorine-containing compounds such as products containing Viton and polytetrafluoroethylene (Teflon) parts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid

 

[Skunkport]

Again, you're quoting materiel that does not say what you're claiming it does. It states that viton is weakened at high temperatures, it does not say that it hardens, changes shape or degrades.


Do you actually have any degraded viton rings to show me? I rarely place any weight on anecdotal evidence.


No, of course I didn't burn the viton rings, they're attached to my vapcap! As I said, I burned silicone that's part of a cupcake baking kit I probably will never use (tried making edibles but my cooking is awful).


Thanks, I wasn't aware it actually produced hydrogen flouride, that is indeed far more dangerous than silica dioxide. Burning the entire O-ring however would produce less than the amount needed for toxicity, a full gram produces 514mg which is equivalent to a concentration of 514ppm in 1 litre of air.
Rats have been exposed to 600ppm for 2 minutes without effect, though there would be irritation to the eyes and lungs at that.

 

[mucsusn]

Please stop

 

[stardustsailor]

Again, you're quoting materiel that does not say what you're claiming it does. It states that viton is weakened at high temperatures, it does not say that it hardens, changes shape or degrades.


Do you actually have any degraded viton rings to show me? I rarely place any weight on anecdotal evidence.


No, of course I didn't burn the viton rings, they're attached to my vapcap! As I said, I burned silicone that's part of a cupcake baking kit I probably will never use (tried making edibles but my cooking is awful).


Thanks, I wasn't aware it actually produced hydrogen flouride, that is indeed far more dangerous than silica dioxide. Burning the entire O-ring however would produce less than the amount needed for toxicity, a full gram produces 514mg which is equivalent to a concentration of 514ppm in 1 litre of air.
Rats have been exposed to 600ppm for 2 minutes without effect, though there would be irritation to the eyes and lungs at that.

Well,it weakens ,and under load ,it surely can harden ,change shape and finally degrade .
I will try to find some used Viton o-rings ,although I usually get rid of them.

You do well by rarely placing any weight on anecdotal evidence.
That way you can experience it
yourself ,first -hand.
Just use your vapCap for couple of months or so.
Then we can revisit this specific topic without having to place any weights on any
anecdotal evidence. Experience will have the first word.

As for the effects of the HF and it's concentration...
It's a matter of choice.
I choose not to have any Viton o-rings at my vapes.
Maybe there's no real possibility about them getting burned.
Or even if they eventually get burned ,they do not pose any real threat ,because of their small mass.
But I do not care really .
Since there's a better & safer alternative available ,I choose what I consider
as the best and safest option for me.

P.S. :
514 mg of HF is actually equivalent to 419.6 ppm (weight to weight concentration),
but for a volume of 1000 liters of air ( 1 cubic meter ),
since 1 cubic meter of air has a mass of 1.225 kg or 1,225,000 mg .
Inside one liter of air the 514 mg of HF have a concentration equivalent to 419,600 ppm .

rat: LC50 = 1,276 ppm/1 Hour
For Humans: Irritation has been reported with exposure to concentrations as low as 0.24 ppm for 1 hour.*

http://wcam.engr.wisc.edu/Public/Safety/MSDS/Hydrofluoric acid, 49%.pdf

*0.24 ppm = 0.294 mg ( 294 μg ) of HF into 1 cubic meter of air .
A single viton o-ring has a mass of ~30 mg .
If it gets burned more than half of it's mass will decompose into HF.
That means a single Viton o-ring can possibly release 15 mg or more of HF gas.

15 mg HF = 12,24 ppm for a cubic meter of air = ~ 0.24 ppm for 50 cubic meters of air.

X room : 3 meters height * 6 meters long * 3 meters wide = 54 m^3
All it takes is a single Viton o-ring to be completely burned inside that hypothetical room ...

 

[Ricardo]

Please, please stop.

 

[Dynavaper]

And people were like...

Spoiler

 

[Squiby]

Can I ask anyone with digital scales to weigh the 5th and 6th get Ti-tips? The two most recent 5 fin designs.

I ask because, while I'm sure it could largely be optical illusion, the newer design with the rounded fins looks like it has a lot more mass to me. I am interested in how different they actually are.

You have a discerning eye. My 6th gen tip is heavier than My 5th gen tip by up to 0.39 gms; I weighed two tips from each generation. The heaviest 6th gen minus the lightest 5th gen.

My scale measures to three decimal points. I won't guarantee the accuracy of my relatively inexpensive scale but here are the weights of my tips without their cap. I suspect that these all fall within a range variance of up to a tenth or two of a gram.

3rd gen 7 fin ti tip - 3.633 gms.

4th gen 7 fin ti tip - 3.590 gms.

5th gen 5 fin ti tip - 3.165 and 3.117 gms.

LE 7 fin ti tip - 3.251 gms.

6th gen 5 fin tip - 3.507 and 3.368 gms.

M stainless steel tip - 5.653 gms.

Based on my tips and my scale, it appears that the 6th gen Ti tip may be the heaviest ti tip to date.

 

[stark1]

@Skunkport, you may want to quit while you are still in good standing.

SDS is a respected member of our community. You seem hostile.

 

[Skunkport]

Civilised people can argue over what they think is right or wrong without being hostile.

We're not politicians. We're stoners arguing about rubber rings on a vape. I'm not pounding my keyboard and yelling, I'm sat here drinking raspberry ginger beer and smoking some haze.

 

[kushkush]

@Skunkport, you may want to quit while you are still in good standing.

SDS is a respected member of our community. You seem hostile.

Oh brother!

 

[cybrguy]

@Skunkport, you may want to quit while you are still in good standing.

SDS is a respected member of our community. You seem hostile.

I'm sorry, I like SDS very much and I support him and agree with many of the things he has said and most importantly appreciate his willingness to share his knowledge with us. That does NOT mean I think he shouldn't be questioned or that he will always have the right answer regarding all things and that folks shouldn't express different views. It is easy enough to skip a post you don't want to read. I think it is fine for us to disagree as long as we aren't disagreeable. That may have gotten harder in the political world but I really hope it doesn't happen here.

As regards this issue with the material of orings I have no idea whether the viton orings pose any real risk to us, but I find it hard to imagine that George would continue to use them exclusively if they presented any significant danger. How long they last, how much swelling might they have, how well they isolate components, how much they cost, AND how well they behave when mistreated (as well as other variables) these are likely all considerations for determining what to use. Which variables are most important has to be determined by the individual making the decision.

 

[stardustsailor]

That does NOT mean I think he shouldn't be questioned or that he will always have the right answer regarding all things and that folks shouldn't express different views.

Exactly.
But the same goes for DV.

You can 't expect from DV to be aware of all the potentional issues
that might pop -up regarding their creations.
Or even to always provide the best solution.
That's why DV needs our feedback.

 

[Guiltfeeder]

So are my o rings safe or not...? I always appreciate warnings but this kind of stuff makes me anxious. I had a minor panic attack last night after reading everything SDS posted about using Whink to etch before anodizing titanium. I anodized my Omni this past Sunday and noticed later that evening I had a little spot on my elbow that stung a little. At the time I figured maybe I got a little of the Whink on me through transfer somehow. I took a shower immediately after I finished anodizing and was super careful with it through the entire process. Then last night I read “Contact with skin can lead to death” and about passed out!! I spent the next few hours thinking I may die and reading everything I could find regarding HF acid and Whink. In the end based on what I read, Whink contains about 2.5% HF acid and based on how little I would have been exposed to (if at all) I had nothing to worry about all along. I knew the stuff was nasty and to be highly respected but didn’t know about the dangers of absorption. I do appreciate learning this information. In the context of that discussion however, I feel it would take more than an accidental small exposure of Whink to kill you or even cause more than just a bad skin burn.

Now I’m reading all of this and wondering if I’m supposed to be switching my o rings out? I don’t mean to stir the pot and this post is not meant to be disrespectful in any way. I’m just not sure what I’m supposed to think now?

EDIT: Sidenote to anyone curious about anodizing. Etching the titanium Omni will leave it very dull so if you anodize and then decide to remove it, it will take mechanical polishing (I think) to make it look like it did when you received it. This may be a “duh” statement to some but I hadn’t considered it before I started.

 

[Hackerman]

ROTFLMAO This thread should be renamed... grade school antics. LMAO

 

[Skunkport]

I'm sorry @Guiltfeeder but I'm totally laughing my head off imagining your panic, since you're clearly ok now.

The O-rings are pretty safe imo, there is a slight risk of irritation I'd say if you actually torch the gray ones long enough to burn them, but it's supposed to be slightly harder to burn than the silicone and it took me 5s with a jet torch to get a thin piece of silicone burning.

 

[stardustsailor]

So are my o rings safe or not...? I always appreciate warnings but this kind of stuff makes me anxious. I had a minor panic attack last night after reading everything SDS posted about using Whink to etch before anodizing titanium. I anodized my Omni this past Sunday and noticed later that evening I had a little spot on my elbow that stung a little. At the time I figured maybe I got a little of the Whink on me through transfer somehow. I took a shower immediately after I finished anodizing and was super careful with it through the entire process. Then last night I read “Contact with skin can lead to death” and about passed out!! I spent the next few hours thinking I may die and reading everything I could find regarding HF acid and Whink. In the end based on what I read, Whink contains about 2.5% HF acid and based on how little I would have been exposed to (if at all) I had nothing to worry about all along. I knew the stuff was nasty and to be highly respected but didn’t know about the dangers of absorption. I do appreciate learning this information. In the context of that discussion however, I feel it would take more than an accidental small exposure of Whink to kill you or even cause more than just a bad skin burn.

Now I’m reading all of this and wondering if I’m supposed to be switching my o rings out? I don’t mean to stir the pot and this post is not meant to be disrespectful in any way. I’m just not sure what I’m supposed to think now?

Calm down ,brother.
Whink can pose a serious health hazard ,but you 've to be doing something really the wrong way also to induce such danger.
And yes it will take more than an accidental small exposure of Whink to kill you or even cause more than just a bad skin burn.But in your case you are a full grown adult.
What about a child,then ?

What I want to say,is that while there's some relativity present,
still it is always a good thing
to take protective measures and even better not to mess with such things at all.

Are the Viton o-rings dangerous ?

Not really ,as long as they do not get burned .
That's the "good thing" .
Take care not to burn them and you will be fine.

But then ,there are always the silicone o-rings .
That's the "even better " part.

 

[JamesTiberiousKirk]

I am eschewing all o-rings and going old school with bubblegum, bailing wire, and duct tape to hold my VCs together. Perhaps not the duct tape. There may be issues with that.

 

[Skunkport]

What kind of wire? Some can give off toxic fumes when heated. Just stick to the bubblegum imo.

 

[cybrguy]

I’m just not sure what I’m supposed to think now?

Unless I am misunderstanding what I have read here and in a couple other places, if there is a concern with the viton orings in our application it would be from putting them directly under your torch and burning them and breathing the fumes that resulted. While I don't think it is impossible to carelessly point a torch directly at the orings I don't think it is very likely to occur accidentally but more importantly I think it unlikely for the fumes that might result to get in the air path.

As a data point in the couple years I have used VCs now I have never incinerated an oring or had to replace one because it was directly singed.

All that being said, if you are concerned about the possibility of a problem with the viton orings you can always replace them with silicone replacements.

I would be surprised if, given this extended discussion in this thread, George or his minions don't have something to say about this. I know they read the thread...

 

[stardustsailor]

Unless I am misunderstanding what I have read here and in a couple other places, if there is a concern with the viton orings in our application it would be from putting them directly under your torch and burning them and breathing the fumes that resulted. While I don't think it is impossible to carelessly point a torch directly at the orings I don't think it is very likely to occur accidentally but more importantly I think it unlikely for the fumes that might result to get in the air path.

As a data point in the couple years I have used VCs now I have never incinerated an oring or had to replace one because it was directly singed.

All that being said, if you are concerned about the possibility of a problem with the viton orings you can always replace them with silicone replacements.

I would be surprised if, given this extended discussion in this thread, George or his minions don't have something to say about this. I know they read the thread...

Well said !


As for some changes that Dv has been doing on their products.

Going from 7 fins to 5 fins ,i can understand (although I still prefer the looks of the 7 fin tips ) .
20% mass reduction of the tip,means 20% less energy needed to reach the break temperature of the bimetallic discs ( or in simpler words : " for the cap to "click " ).

But there are some changes that seem ... ( at least ) ....or even .

-( a batch of ? ) New Caps : The older caps were much more responsive .
No it's not my idea ,I've confirmed it and it's not just me insisting on that.
The new caps are way P-R-O-B-L-E-M-A-T-I-C compared to the good ol' ones.
They take forever to click while cooling down and it is far more easier to combust the load.
Also the vapour produced is much-much harsher and hotter.
Something is really wrong with those caps.
Personally I consider the new caps unusable.
Maybe it was just a bad batch .
Still ,I've about 5 of those caps and I do not know what to actually do with them ,
except throwing them in the garbage.

I had 10 of them and gave away the 5 to friends that already owned a VC and lost or destroyed their caps.
ALL five said almost the same thing :
" This is not the same cap .The load gets combusted very easy."
" I finish my bowl in just two heating cycles .WTF is wrong with this caps ? "
"Hey my throat was fucked up last night .Definately this is not like the older cap. "
and so on ...



-Viton O-rings : We 've already covered that issue,more than enough I think.

 

[Guiltfeeder]

I'm sorry @Guiltfeeder but I'm totally laughing my head off imagining your panic, since you're clearly ok now.

Legit Panic! I read that line and practically shouted “Oh Shit!!”. My wife heard me from three rooms away and then it was on. Spent the next few hours reading then explaining then rereading and re-explaining to my wife that I didn’t need to go to the ER. She especially didn’t like the part where I told her “if I was going to die, I’d probably be dead already at this point...”. The fact that I read all of this right after a really good session probably didn’t help my anxiety!

@stardustsailor , I absolutely agree about Whink and children. This was my biggest take away from my “research” and the info you posted. I have a 15 m/o daughter and this stuff will no longer be stored in our house. I’m actually thinking about just getting rid of the rest but I feel like as soon as I do, I will want to change my color.

I guess my fear with the o rings is I tend to extract as much as I can as fast as I can. I will reheat immediately after the cooling click and I’ll usually blast 2-3 caps like this in a short amount of time. This leads to my Omni body getting pretty hot to the touch, much hotter than it seems many of you experience. By the end of my session I usually can’t touch anywhere above my carb hole for more than a second or two. I guess this would still never hit the temp necessary to degrade the ring though?

Edit: changed the tag, sorry for the mixup

 

[kushkush]

Well said !
-New Caps : The older caps were much more responsive .
No it's not my idea ,I've confirmed it and it's not just me insisting on that.
The new caps are way P-R-O-B-L-E-M-A-T-I-C compared to the good ol' ones.
They take forever to click while cooling down and it is far more easier to combust the load.
Also the vapour produced is much-much harsher and hotter.
Something is really wrong with those caps.
Personally I consider the new caps unusable.

Could you get the scoop from George so we can know for sure. If they did indeed change the Cap, then that will effect just about every future order.