Divine Tribe atty's

[Steven]

The e-bay black base unit I got has less airflow than the original DT 2.7. The 510 connector center hole barely lets any air in, many mods will block it, and the 510 side holes are missing.

=====================

It's funny that the Chinese mods with the most sophisticated features always "come with" more power. The fat 2-3 battery units might make sense for day-long capacity e-cigs, but I vape a lot of DIY flavored VG (kicked the nicotine by now), and I'm running 26-28 gauge Ti coils (both RDA and RTA). They give great billows at 10-15 watts, mostly 12. I still don't know who in the real world is vaping what at 100 or 200 watts and why. There's the guy with the allegedly 700 watt rig, all this macho "not for beginners" posturing. I like the guy who said just get a car battery.

Just a repeat to newcomers to vaping erl: don't waste money on high power. Huge clouds = waste, and high temps just decompose the goodies. If you find a mod that's got all the TC flexibility for different metals, upgradeable firmware and is only rated at 25 watts, that's plenty.

I don't why but a 40 watt spec seems "safer", so, OK, 40. But on a mod where you can set both Temp and Wattage limits, if I set it to 40 watts it takes off like a mountain bike down an elevator shaft and overshoots so hard it smolders before it realizes it's passed the temp target ;-)

It's true that for our purposes, a 40w tc mod is plenty for out needs. Those massive power and batterry sizes are meant for sub ohm ecig atomizers that actually need that kind of power. Some of the most popular tanks out right now for cloud chasers easily climbs pass 40w. To be honest, ecig are the reason why there are so many different mods. We are actually piggybacking off that industry and adapting it for our uses. Hopefully our market grows and more gear will be tailored for eerl

 

[OF]

We are actually piggybacking off that industry and adapting it for our uses. Hopefully our market grows and more gear will be tailored for eerl

Very well put! They are driving the technology, we're a tiny market by comparison. More power to 'em! Hopefully demand for sub 40 Watt versions will catch up enough to induce makers to offer new products in the range. I'd love one that would do TC on higher resistance vape pen elements for instance. Right now, nobody I can find makes a mod that will do TC with over 1 Ohm loads (it's a sub Ohm game for sure) and nobody makes a vape pen that's really under one Ohm......no matches. I'd love to run say 5 Watts and have a TC limit protecting me from running dry.

In other news I've been playing with my DC (the herb cart) as I wait for my TC Mod (Kanger something....). I'm having a tough time keeping on top of it, unlike say VG or VM. The 'no fire' part I guess. A series of good and OK hits ended in combustion......go figure. Though to clean the smell out, several ISO wipes brought no joy. Then, while I was thinking of a wash out it PBW the little light came on, use the dishwasher. OK, I was loading the DW at the time but it worked GREAT! Not that you want to combust, you can wash the evidence away easily with this guy.

OF

 

[Haywood]

Just a repeat to newcomers to vaping erl: don't waste money on high power. Huge clouds = waste, and high temps just decompose the goodies. If you find a mod that's got all the TC flexibility for different metals, upgradeable firmware and is only rated at 25 watts, that's plenty.

I don't why but a 40 watt spec seems "safer", so, OK, 40. But on a mod where you can set both Temp and Wattage limits, if I set it to 40 watts it takes off like a mountain bike down an elevator shaft and overshoots so hard it smolders before it realizes it's passed the temp target ;-)

One of the reasons I'm a fan of the eVic-VTC Mini is that it will provide less power when desired. Unlike almost every other mod on the market, it will go below 5 Watts (down to 1 Watt). For the DV atty, of course, ~10 Watts are needed, but I have lots of other atty's that I like to vape at 3 or 4 Watts.

 

[OF]

For the DV atty, of course, ~10 Watts are needed, but I have lots of other atty's that I like to vape at 3 or 4 Watts.

Me too, but don'cha think it'd be much cooler if we could run TC mode on those same attys? All it takes is demand for such a device I think, today there's basically none.

It's worth mentioning to those who don't normally follow such things 'dry wicks' are the kiss of death (literally in some folks opinions) for sub Ohm carts. VG and PG break down and release some really nasty stuff when temperatures spike out of control. It's a common 'see we told you so' health claim by those trying to stop e-cigs, both those who know better what you should do and those who sell tobacco already (strange bedfellows, indeed). Regulations mandating 'dry wick protection' for all e-cigs is a common 'conclusion/bullet point' in studies. Low hanging fruit and all that.

Now, if we can just get them to extend that protection where it's not technically needed.....

If eVic wants more of my money, just increase the resistance range the Mini will do TC from one to say 3 Ohms? Five to be safe......

OF

 

[Haywood]

Me too, but don'cha think it'd be much cooler if we could run TC mode on those same attys? All it takes is demand for such a device I think, today there's basically none.

It's worth mentioning to those who don't normally follow such things 'dry wicks' are the kiss of death (literally in some folks opinions) for sub Ohm carts. VG and PG break down and release some really nasty stuff when temperatures spike out of control. It's a common 'see we told you so' health claim by those trying to stop e-cigs, both those who know better what you should do and those who sell tobacco already (strange bedfellows, indeed). Regulations mandating 'dry wick protection' for all e-cigs is a common 'conclusion/bullet point' in studies. Low hanging fruit and all that.

Now, if we can just get them to extend that protection where it's not technically needed.....

If eVic wants more of my money, just increase the resistance range the Mini will do TC from one to say 3 Ohms? Five to be safe......

OF

Well, yes, but. What material do you plan on using for your heater? If it's something with a nice TCR, like Ni200 (or even Ti or SS to a lesser extent), have you investigated how long the wire has to be to approach 3.0Ω? My calculations show that (with Ni200, 28 gauge) to make 3.0Ω load you'd need a 2500mm long wire which is a little over 220 wraps if you make a 3mm wide coil. Or in 32 gauge you'll wind your 1000mm wire 90+ times. In SS316 you could cut yourself a little break, as you'll only need 315mm of wire, about 27 wraps with a 3mm coil.

(never thought I'd be giving YOU one of these)

Check out one of the online coil builder calculators such as The Steam Engine

 

[OF]

Well, yes, but. What material do you plan on using for your heater? If it's something with a nice TCR, like Ni200 (or even Ti or SS to a lesser extent), have you investigated how long the wire has to be to approach 3.0Ω?

I don't plan on making any, simply use what's already 'out there'. No need to invent something new? Like say a KISS cart? Or something fun from Vapor Brothers.

Actually it takes a lot of effort to make a metal alloy that doesn't have a significant PTC (Positive Temperature Coefficient, resistance goes up when temperature goes up) it's a property common to metals. Kanthal is an example of such a special case for instance. Most 'skillet' type vapes seem to use NiChrome of some sort, SS or Ti. All of which should work fine? Or at least better than 'barefoot'.

One of the serious issues here, if we want tight control, is the 'cold reference resistance'. Typically I'm seeing about .3 Ohms shift (from say .77 to 1.08) in going from 'room temperature' to 390F (320 degree rise). So each .1 Ohm shift represents 320/3 degrees, call it 110 degrees to make the math easy. Each .01 Ohm then represents a 'change of 11 degrees F is assumed. Since it's easy to get a 'locking error' of several hundredths (in fact keeping it under .04 is quite challenging at times. This is a potential 'temperature reading error' of over 50 degrees....... Not good. Since you seem to typically 'lock in' a value that's too big, the mod then adds the normal .3 Ohms to that and goes 'looking for' a resistance that's too high (and therefore have a doughnut too hot. Even worse, it goes the 'wrong way'.

Or not.

OF

 

[OF]

OK, change of topic? There was some talk awhile back about cement used in the current carts (but not in the future), when I lost a deep base I decided to see what was up. Breaking the threaded part off I crushed the ceramic until it came apart:

You can see, they put a bead of some kind of ceramic cement around the bottom in two places. One is go glue the base in (the knurling won't 'cut' into the ceramic, glue or a gasket is needed). You can see how it's built, the ceramic body is one piece and is glazed (coated with glass), the cup and post under it are hard fired (but not glazed) ceramic. That rests on a metal plate on top of a silicone rubber bushing on top of the plated brass base (which has the threaded part). The leads from the doughnut go through the stack and hold it together before it gets glued into the tube that makes the bulk of the base:

You can also see here clearly why if the goods make it through the vent holes in the bowl they're never coming back........

OF

 

[jim-bob]

Thanks for making the sacrifice! I've been wondering about the guts of those things for a while.

 

[brucee10]

All of my bases broke eventually. They only had glue around the base. I ended up using the parts for experiments.

 

[OF]

Thanks for making the sacrifice! I've been wondering about the guts of those things for a while.

You're welcome, but it really wasn't much of a sacrifice. Like I said, it dies on it's own first (one lead broke off the doughnut) and I had to do the first part to recover the concentrate that had leaked down and collected inside the rubber bushing. I pulled something over 1/8 gram out on toothpicks and loaded it into the next cart. I even threw the sucker away before realizing I could crack it open and shoot a couple of photos...... No big loss, really.

Glad you enjoyed it, that was of course the intent of posting.

Regards to all.

OF

 

[tharealmclovin]

Seems like 320-350 is my sweet spot. Any lower I get little vapor, any more and it's hot hits.

 

[fernand]

The Evic Mini's Version 3.01 firmware that I just installed extends the resistance range in TC mode to 0.05 - 1.5 ohms. That's great. It apparently used to top out at 1.0 ohm before 3.00.

Coming from little e-cig coils, 1.5 ohms is a common eGo 510 coil resistance in Nichrome. So, actually, we're there. With 32 gauge Nichrome on a 7/64 core diameter it takes 4-5 wraps to reach 1.5 ohms. That's something like these:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/50-Rebuilda...919624?hash=item463260dd48:g:NKYAAOSw8d9Uu37k

that can be retrofitted into a single coil Protank 2, Or get these off the shelf :

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10-Genuine-...346502?hash=item2363361e86:g:FxgAAOSwezVWxose

A Protank 2 used to work with erl if CAREFULLY pulsed. The single coil head would drain all the stuff down to the deck, unlike a dual stack Protank 3. Now maybe we can try TC on one ?

@OF do you have a TCR for Chinese Peoples' Nichrome?
BTW, @OF were you using your thermocouple dry or in erl?

@tharealmclovin that's 320-350 F on a Evic Mini set to 12 Watt limit?

 

[OF]

@OF do you have a TCR for Chinese Peoples' Nichrome?
BTW, @OF were you using your thermocouple dry or in erl?

Yes if you're asking about the doughnuts used in the DT. I make it about 2450 ppm (.245%) per degree C. That enters as '245' on the VTC Mini.

Dry or wet, but wet with vegetable oil, not hash oil......or any other oil with a boiling point near the temperatures we're working with....... I used Peanut oil, but got the same answer as dry. Careful placement is important.

OF

 

[fernand]

@OF so with 245 the evic regulates pretty well from room temp to a range of target temps without offset? Wow! That 245 is way out of the range they claim for Nickel, but of course we know how rough this all is.

Know anything about the TCR of whatever Chinese alloy they use in garden variety 510 atomizers? I'm only guessing it's Nichrome.

Yeah, thermocouple placement is critical. I suspect most of my fluctuation will be smoothed if I add 1/10 CC of corn oil or whatever. Maybe re-try your IR gun with e ~ 0.50? if it works as well for you it's a big time saver. I'll check if adding oil changes emissivity much. But working with the thermocouple is a pain, breaking off the bead sure sux.

Your posting those photos of the demolished DT was a godsend! Now I know what's below. Nothing like abyss anxiety, wondering what will happen if you drip some liquid into a mystery device. Thanks!

 

[OF]

@OF so with 245 the evic regulates pretty well from room temp to a range of target temps without offset? Wow! That 245 is way out of the range they claim for Nickel, but of course we know how rough this all is.

Know anything about the TCR of whatever Chinese alloy they use in garden variety 510 atomizers? I'm only guessing it's Nichrome.

Of course no fixed offset. It's a more or less linear change in resistance with temperature. The rate varies. Like metals (which get longer when hot), how much so at any point a function of how many degrees and what percentage of the 'at rest' size it changes per degree. Most metals change about 1/3 of a % or so, this guy is in that general range.

No fixed offsets, that doesn't happen.

Yes, I know that it's not (pure) Nickle, but Nickle/Chrome alloy.....Nicrome of some sort. There are a LOT of Nichrome alloys in use, most used of them being Nichrome A or C but that is based on physical (strength and hardness) and electrical properties, not important in our (supported film) case. There's no reason to assume that either of those would be a good choice. It's no doubt picked for it's ability to be laid down in a uniform film and it's electrical (bulk resistance mostly) properties.

In fact it's this very same 'rise in resistance with heat' that helps regulate the heat in your toaster and bathroom heater without further controls, that would not work if there were offsets in play. It's a simple scale thing in the first order (second order, there are some 'bumps and wiggles' in the curve, but generally of no concern to us.

I know this not only because it's logical but also because Matt told me they use only Nichrome in all their heaters (came up in a discussion of the DC heater. I reported that in this thread, about a week back.

In another vein, I'm not cool with the slams of 'Chinese alloys', what evidence to you have that this product is in anyway substandard? What makes you think they don't have competent Manufacturing Engineers over there as well? I sure see nothing to base this on, the sucker works and works extremely well....... The bases I've tried all have very very uniform resistances, some obvious care in making them, unnecessary for simple functioning. If you were trying to make 'em cheap that wouldn't be happening I think. Matt is wise......he knows his stuff, and knows how much he knows and stays within that. More power to him. Clint Eastwood would be proud.

OF

 

[Steven]

Thanks to all especially @OF for all your R&D with the tcr values. 245 seems to be working great for me as well. Please share if anyone finds a better sweet spot. This stuff is a bit complicated for me and I don't even know how you arrived at the number. I know that the higher the tcr the higher the resistance change per degree but my knowledge of that ends there.

 

[OF]

Thanks to all especially @OF for all your R&D with the tcr values. 245 seems to be working great for me as well.

This stuff is a bit complicated for me and I don't even know how you arrived at the number. I know that the higher the tcr the higher the resistance change per degree but my knowledge of that ends there.

You're welcome, of course, glad to help when I can. Only fair, lots of good folks have helped me over the years you know.......

If you dig back you can find all the sordid details in a rambling discussion between a few of us 'usual suspects', IIRC this time it's Haywood's fault? He started it.........

After a few 'fish it out' exercises I put a Thermocouple sensor under the doughnut and actually measured the temperature. Talk about desperate.....

Be careful not to expect more accuracy than possible. Like the classic student error of making a couple of 3 digit (at best) readings and applying Ohm's law and a calculator and delivering a six place answer. As I was rambling on a week or so back, this technique depends on knowing exactly what the temperature is at a known temperature (room temperature in our case). We only get about .3 Ohms total change to cover a typical rise of over 300F. A small error in the reference measurement can be a big error in final temperature. The mod will just add .3 to whatever it thinks the cold value is and power to that value resistance (expecting the temperature to be on track).

A fun way to look at it, you can adjust the TCR value or the temperature called for and get exactly the same result..........

IMO a useful tool, but not a real instrument. The Thermistors usually used for vape temperature control (like say in FM or Solo/Air) are much more precise and reliable.

Fun stuff, and useful too.

Thanks again for the kind words.

OF

 

[Steven]

Actually a tcr at 245 seems to run a bit cold for me, as in I need more heat. Would a lower tcr value produce more heat or less?

 

[OF]

Actually a tcr at 245 seems to run a bit cold for me, as in I need more heat. Would a lower tcr value produce more heat or less?

Lower. A smaller number per degree, same number of degrees means a smaller total shift expected so in the real world (wherever that is....) you reach the target resistance change sooner and therefore at lower temperature. Remember, it's working on that resistance change not temperature. It just heats until it gets the expected change.

It's easy to work with, you get 3 different "M" values in the table? Put your 'best guess' in M2 say 10% less in M1, 10% more in M3. Then check out how you like M2 compared to M1 and M3. That's how I used 'goal seeking' to decide on 245 not 240 or 250.

Due to excellent precision on the films in the doughnuts I've tried I've also found a useful clue in the actual resistance value shown while heating on the VTC Mini (and Cuboid) while heating. They are running about .77 Ohms cold and 1.08 Ohms when at what I measure (and believe to be close to) 390F. When changing bases (I currently have four in various stages of testing/messing about with) I tend to use 1.08 Ohms as a target and see what develops.

There's also a 'hidden clue' in how fast the core heats up. As I normally load it (on the light side) a full load takes about six 'update cycles' heating to reach 'Protection'. I just checked and got 70, 112, 186, 240, 320, and 382 before "Protection". If I 'get there in 2 or 3 counts instead it's because there is less/no oil to heat (and conduct heat away faster). Hits will be getting thinner, time to reload.

OF

 

[fernand]

@OF You've done this to me before, and this time it's fair for me to suggest that before you get all huffy and "not cool with slams", you kindly adjust your spectacles, and READ what's in front of you. I wrote:

"Know anything about the TCR of whatever Chinese alloy they use in garden variety 510 atomizers?"

I think it's pretty clear I wasn't asking about the donuts. It was in a new paragraph too. I was asking about the garden variety 510 atomizers, like these. And yes, I have good reason to question their quality control.

So, let me ask again: Do you know anything about the TCR of the alloys they use in plain cheap 510 atomizers?

@OF So you know that the resistive material is deposited as a film in Matt's donuts? I was amazed to see that the black one I got on e-bay reveals a wound coil or a zigzag inside (can't tell if it's in 2 or 3 dimensions) when heated enough to glow!

@Haywood, now that we all have the Evic Mini, have you revisited the old Joyetech 510 atties you were using for erl? Got any that are under 1.5 ohms? That would be interesting to try in TC mode with the Evic !

 

[OF]

@OF

"Know anything about the TCR of whatever Chinese alloy they use in garden variety 510 atomizers?"

@OF So you know that the resistive material is deposited as a film in Matt's donuts? I was amazed to see that the black one I got on e-bay reveals a wound coil or a zigzag inside (can't tell if it's in 2 or 3 dimensions) when heated enough to glow!

Understood. I've told you 'all I know' on that topic, really: 'there are a lot of alloys in use, mostly Nichrome A and C'. But, since often it's physical properties (like strength at temperature) or electrical ('right' changes with temperature to help regulate), lots of what might make one alloy an advantage over another might not count. In the 5 Watt or so e-cig based heaters I'm not even sure they're all Nichrome. In fact I know they're not. For sure I have some specifically advertised as such (that is 'non Nichrome').

If you want to experiment, I suggest you fish it out. Check the resistance change (cold to hot) and see what sort of percent change you get. If you get little/none (very possible, for example Kanthal A) you're SOL I think. If it's a couple dozen percent (it's like 40% with the DC doughnut) you're Jake. A few percent and you're on real thin ice?

As far as the 'Chinese alloy' it, of course, has nothing to do with origin, metals are metals. I didn't responding on your prior asking: "@OF do you have a TCR for Chinese Peoples' Nichrome?". I gave a pass to it then, perhaps an error?

The loose doughnut I bought from Matt sure is, as the ones in DT bases seem to be, . And good thing, pretty hard to put a coil in a package that thin. How thick is the 'pancake' (can't call it a doughnut, there's no hole...... OK, maybe a Danish?). in that guy? I was thinking of ordering one or two to play with sometime, off hand it seems like a bad idea not having the vent hole in the middle, kind of asking for lots of splatter?

It could be a coil of course, depositing films is 'less cost effective' in many environments but making them thin would be a problem. Sometimes the film is masked as it's deposited to give a longer path, sort of like the element in a toaster might (if you allow the versions that use ribbon are basically flat).

I think there's a serious advantage to the DT approach of a deposited film on top of a 'green' (low fired) substrate (that won't change shape much in final firing/glazing). As well as the shape. If you 'cast' ceramic around a metal coil stresses can cause degrading the ceramic (which is why so many have SS jackets welded on, the ceramic 'falls apart' with use). The same problems come up making high power resistors with ceramic jackets, at lower temperatures.

Interesting information, even if it isn't making sense yet, thanks. Maybe I should have ordered one...... Please let us know how it performs (all that really matters in the end?). TIA

OF

 

[tharealmclovin]

How can I clean out the base after it has leaked? Can ISO soak the whole atty?

 

[OF]

How can I clean out the base after it has leaked? Can ISO soak the whole atty?

You can't, basically. No, ISO soaks don't effect it.

Consider the photo I posted a few days back:

Once concentrate finds it's way through the holes in the metal plate about mid way, they are trapped below in inside the rubber 'tank' and can only slowly leak out the vents above the threads. You might get some luck standing it on it's mouth and baking the whole thing at 200F or so? This is a deep base, and will probably not work, but a shallow one has two of the four vents higher up (so lower down when inverted), you might get the heated oil to flow out them??? Otherwise once through the holes in the wall gravity moves leaks too far away to make it back. The rubber bushing in the base photographed was about half full of concentrate despite several washings in PBW and an overnight soak in 95% ISO. There's just nothing to force liquids into that part of the base. Here's another view:

The best plan is, I think, to never let leaks start since they don't stop easily at all.

OF

 

[fernand]

@OF, thanks. The black base deep dish I got on e-bay is not the pancake type. I expected it to be just like the DT 2.7 on the left.

It looks so similar. But the 510 connector is different, and the thermal behavior of the donut is different. It's a good idea to stick to Matt's units for donut atties, if nothing else so we can share observations.

The pancakes are a different beast altogether. As you pointed out, the lack of a center hole could change many things. If they made the pancake fit the inner diameter of the ceramic cup exactly, there would be no pooling below the pancake. As they look on photos, oil will seep under the pancake, and there could be all sorts of issues with no chance for the hot oil to "equilibrate".

Probably worth an experiment at fourteen bucks.

 

[Haywood]

@Haywood, now that we all have the Evic Mini, have you revisited the old Joyetech 510 atties you were using for erl? Got any that are under 1.5 ohms? That would be interesting to try in TC mode with the Evic !

The 510 atty's I use all have nichrome wires, and aren't really suitable for temp control, since their resistance change as they get hot is minimal. That said, I deliberately order 1.8Ω-2.2Ω 510 atty's, not the lower resistance ones, and hence couldn't try TC with them even if I wanted to...