tharealmclovin
Well-Known Member
Got my evic. When we are talking 200 degrees are we talking F or C?
Divine Tribe atty's
- Thread starter divinetribe
- Start date
OF
Well-Known Member
F. Using the default conversion factor (Ni200?) calling for about 200F will get you to vaping temperatures (about 400F) due to the mismatch of conversion factors. IIRC I got best results about 220F. That takes a .75 Ohm or so (cold) doughnut to about 1.06 Ohms (plus or minus a few hundredths unit to unit.
Calling for 200C would get your mod to try to drive the doughnut to something close to 800F, provided you allow enough power. Be sure to limit your power to 12 Watts or less in addition to temperature control, otherwise the mod will try to give it all 75 Watts to get the e-cig guys that instant massive 'throat hit' they crave.
If you enter a custom "M" value for the TCR function of about 245 you get a pretty good match between display and actual heat. That is I'm using those settings, calling for 390F and getting what I think it very close to that (based on performance and the thermocouple I put in to try to measure:
OF
OF
Well-Known Member
Great, glad you're enjoying it.
With those settings you're not using the TC mode really, you can set it to any temperature you want and get the same results since the power (9W) is nowhere near enough power to run the DT over temperature. You need about 11 Watts to make enough heat to need to limit by temperature......which is fine of course. I ran my Istick TC40W at 11 Watts (no TC at all) for a while early on.
With the VTC you can get a good idea of what's going on by watching the resistance display as it's working. That reading (resistance) should rise from about .75 Ohms to about 1.06 Ohms, give or take.
When the TC mode takes control you should see "protection" replace the temperature in the display while it's on when it 'makes temperature'. I assume you don't ever see that?
The Eleaf is an excellent mod for what it's designed for I think, but the lack of ability to use power and temperature control at the same time makes it a poor choice for us. It's useful in power limit mode (at 11 or 12 Watts) but the fact that using TC means it comes on 'full blast' (40 Watts) makes it basically useless for us in that mode. Fine for the e-cig guys and their juice, in fact it's just what they want.
The VTC Mini fixes that. As does the Invader Mini, making either a better call for DT than the Eleaf. I'd put the Cuboid on that list, basically a two battery VTC Mini (although not much bigger at all).
OF
skyler544
Clockwork Murderer
I'll play around with some settings and see if I can figure out where it cuts off, though at 9w and 190C the hit goes to temp protection after 3-4 seconds.
I held a cuboid in my hand and decided not to get it because imo it's significantly bigger and heavier. Next I tried taking out the batteries and the tank off and found that the mod itself is quite heavy, especially near the top. After that, it was clear to me which battery was a better fit for portability and discreetness' sake, seeing as how they run identical firmware.
I personally never had any issues with my eLeaf but following this thread and wishing for better battery life brought me around to wanting a new mod.
Edit: at 11w the rips are definitely a lot better.
I held a cuboid in my hand and decided not to get it because imo it's significantly bigger and heavier. Next I tried taking out the batteries and the tank off and found that the mod itself is quite heavy, especially near the top. After that, it was clear to me which battery was a better fit for portability and discreetness' sake, seeing as how they run identical firmware.
I personally never had any issues with my eLeaf but following this thread and wishing for better battery life brought me around to wanting a new mod.
Edit: at 11w the rips are definitely a lot better.
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OF
Well-Known Member
Something's not right here.....if it's really going into temperature protection with only 9 Watts it's not at 190C (which needs more power than 9 Watts). And if bumping the power up to 11 gets you more vapor (heat) it clearly wasn't in temperature protection mode (because more power should let it get to the limit faster, but should not be able to change the limit temperature? Once cruse control kicks in it doesn't matter how many HP you have on tap, the car isn't going faster......
What heater type are you using for the TC setting? TIA
In other news I just got a Divine Crossing (the all ceramic herb cart), couldn't pass up $24. Lots of fun so far. A couple of corrections for the specifications given in the video on the page (the only details I can find?):
http://ineedhemp.com/product/fcuserspecial1/
He's showing a prototype, so the production one I got might be a changed design but should be what you get? Isn't "10mm in diameter" like in the video, it's more like 8.8mm which means the pods from the FM won't fit for instance. My bowl is also loading .16 or .17 grams (about 1/6), not the ".6 grams" in the video. Like the video the iStick TC40W, VTC Mini and Cuboid mods I tried it on 'jump out of TC mode into VW mode on their own. I think this is becasue the heater used is Kanthal or some other 'zero temperature coefficient' alloy so the mod heats for a bit, sees no change, and reverts back to a safer mode. I've PM'd Matt to ask if that might be the case (and can we get it switched to something else). I don't think the mod is getting the temperature feedback it needs to regulate.
Still, you can run it 'open loop' like a VG, VM, Hammer, MFLB or any of a number of other quite popular and useful vapes. It just calls for some modest skills/experience I think.
Anyway, IMO $24 well spent if such stuff interests you. You do need a mod that will do at least 30 Watts......gives me a new use for my TC40W now that it's been replaced by TC mods for 'doughnut duty' with the DT atty.
OF
skyler544
Clockwork Murderer
It's not more vapor, it's a faster ramp up to a temperature at which vapor (consistency of your average bong load) is produced. Using Nickel temperature control mode with 9w and 190C, decent rips happen after the second or third full press of the fire button, while with 11w they happen at the end of the first full press and get better during the second full press. Later I tried 12 and then 14w, and finally I've settled on that because the hits start right when I press the fire button and are substantial enough to be satisfying. The oddest part though is that the power display on the mod dances around 8w when it hits temp protection and never goes higher.
OF
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the additional information. This is still not making sense to me. I just repeated your numbers and am convinced you're not in temperature regulation, although the power dropping off says that's what's happening (the mod cuts the power back to hold target temperature just like your car changes the throttle to produce more or less power to maintain speed).
You can get a good handle on the temperature by watching the "Coil" value. It should start about .75 Ohms cold and rise to about 1.05 or so at vaping temperature. That's what mine are doing, I'm running several with different concentrates, they're all about the same.
So, putting 9 Watts and 190C in I slowly climb to about 170C (indicated) and 1.03 Ohms. No protection. Going up to 12 Watts I finally hit limit at "190 C" but the resistance is 1.18 by then, it's WAY hotter than 190C (real temperature) in there! The power drops down to about 10 Watts at that point.
It's only a tool. If you're getting useful results as you're using it that's what really matters I think.
If you've a mind to fiddle with it I suggest either starting with the values I'm using successfully now or 'fish' it out by (using any scale) running the power up until you get good vapor (say 11 Watts) then lower the temperature setting down until it 'takes over' and trips protection. You can then 'bump up' the power a couple of Watts and not have the temperature go higher since you're in TC mode. Then, slowly, advance the temperature back up again, always staying in protection (TC limit) so your not power limited, until you find the vapor level you want. IIRC that was about 330F or so with the NI range?
There was a lot of 'chatter' about this at the end of January, this might be a useful area to read in (following it backwards):
http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/divine-tribe-attys.14455/page-39#post-917862
OF
fernand
Well-Known Member
For people who aren't up for an expensive experiment, the KangXin Mini VF is another mod that allows setting both a Temp and Wattage limit, uses one 18650, 50W max, similar chip type as the Invader Mini, and if you can be patient for a couple weeks for GearBest, the price is great, around twenny six bux shipped depending (I love this!) on color. There's only a Nickel curve, so a 210F + 12 W setting is the way to go. The flashlight function turns out to be useful and they are sturdy. I've been very happy with mine, I think it closely matches the Invader Mini. They don't show changing resistance in real time. Does the Invader Mini?
Oh, on Darthdabs aka Robertsprun out of Buffalo Grove IL, I never got my black donut attie, but e-bay leaned on him and he refunded. Better buy stuff elsewhere.
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OF
Well-Known Member
Hi guys, just ordered my VTC mini and just realized it comes without batteries
Wich ones would be my best option?
I believe they recommend the Sony VTC-5, I'm using Samsung INR18650s in mine. Since it's 'smart mod', past a certain point any high performance 18650 will be OK, more important if you want 75 Watts for some monster e-cig not the dozen Watts we are looking for.
OF
Edit:
Thanks for the tip, more choices is a good thing in the market.
You have one? Can you set both power and temperature in the same mode? Which you can do with the Invader but not the previous 'best mod for the DT', the iStick TC40W. There, if you opt for temperature control, it comes on full blast (40 Watts), doing the same here, at an even higher power, will not work well. The TC40W is not acceptable, perhaps this one more so?
Notice it talks about "Temperature Protection", not 'temperature control'? That is, I think, an important point. There is a lot of concern about 'dry burns' with e-cigs. If the wicks run dry at the extreme powers guys run all sorts of nasty (honestly toxic) stuff happens when the last of the 'juice' in the wick gets burned when the heater goes way over temperature. If you read the studies (yeah, I read a couple) one of the common 'findings' is the idea the Government needs to mandate protections against 'dry burns' (which would kill the cheap e-cig market of course).
I think in at least some cases we see 'dry burn protection' not 'temperature control'.
I don't think the Invader shows dynamic change in resistance, it was one of the things I was looking for that got me to try the VTC Mini and Cuboid in fact, but I can't verify since my Invader is visiting a friend (with a 2.5 Base of course). He's with the program now, but it might be a while before I can recover my mod and atty (he has his own already.....).
Thanks again for the tip. Attractive price for sure. But then again, from the same (slow) vendor you can go 'first cabin' with the real VTC Mini for five bucks and change more:
http://www.gearbest.com/temperature-control-mods/pp_239873.html
Nice to have choices. Thanks again.
OF
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Steven
Well-Known Member
The wismec presa tc 75w has been my favorite mod to date. It has the same chip as the highly reviewed evic mini. All my power buttons have failed in the past. I don't like digging my finger on a small button repeatedly. The presa 75w tc has an entire front panel as a button so I just tighten my grip on the entire mod to fire the button. Most satisfying button press ever and the performance is the best of them
fernand
Well-Known Member
@Steven that's a gorgeous device, and the "button" is great as long as the actual switch inside holds up. What's the best source/price on one?
@OF yes of course with the KangXin you set both "temp" and "watts" limit simultaneously, I've been howling about that for months before people "got it", or you can use watts-only mode. I ended up with 2 of them and a spare.
The funny thing is that a massive RTA like a Kayfun 4, during a drop from 2-4 feet, applies a lot of force to the top plate which is held on by two screws in the middle. After this happens a few times, the leverage forces the thick alloy plate to start bending, which creates an unsightly gap. The solution has been to remove the 2 screws, jam the plate into a vise with the electronics dangling, and pound it back straight with a mallet, whereupon it looks and works as good as new. Damn, this device is of the AK47 school of environmental dominance as opposed to the AR15 type. I've put batteries in backwards, dropped them onto everything, and so far they keep on truckin'.
I just received a very pretty black ceramic deep dish "2.5" from a Golden, Colorado e-bayer. The black glaze looks very good. It's visually and dimensionally so close to Matt's you may not notice the diffs. One is that the 510 connector has a hole in the tip of the positive post instead of the typical 510 side holes. The cold resistance is about the same, around 0.76 ohm. But if you glow it, it seems the coils embedded in the donut ceramic are different, as if they were fatter and looser. Initially there was more taste to burn off.
And BTW, I'm still getting a good match between the thermocouple held against the donut and sticking the atty in the mouth of the IR temp gun with emissivity set to 0.50. I've checked this many times now and starting to trust it.
With no oil or other loading, on the same mod and setting (200 DegF and 12 watts), the white shallow DT 2.5 averages around 400 degF, with peaks to 450. The new black one averages closer to 450 with peaks to 550 and up. Could it be because the deep dish retains more heat? A random variation?
The Chinese production style is to grab what's available, factories have never demanded that suppliers meet rigid specs, because they come from a background of "lucky you get parts at all". The general tone I've gotten there is always "Sure we'll make them just like that for you", before they even know the specs.
I doubt that even Matt has control over exactly what they ship him. But as long as Matt is treating us FC'ers well, I would surely recommend that people stick to the Divine Tribe units and avoid the e-bay look-alikes which will invariably be less predictable.
@OF yes of course with the KangXin you set both "temp" and "watts" limit simultaneously, I've been howling about that for months before people "got it", or you can use watts-only mode. I ended up with 2 of them and a spare.
The funny thing is that a massive RTA like a Kayfun 4, during a drop from 2-4 feet, applies a lot of force to the top plate which is held on by two screws in the middle. After this happens a few times, the leverage forces the thick alloy plate to start bending, which creates an unsightly gap. The solution has been to remove the 2 screws, jam the plate into a vise with the electronics dangling, and pound it back straight with a mallet, whereupon it looks and works as good as new. Damn, this device is of the AK47 school of environmental dominance as opposed to the AR15 type. I've put batteries in backwards, dropped them onto everything, and so far they keep on truckin'.
I just received a very pretty black ceramic deep dish "2.5" from a Golden, Colorado e-bayer. The black glaze looks very good. It's visually and dimensionally so close to Matt's you may not notice the diffs. One is that the 510 connector has a hole in the tip of the positive post instead of the typical 510 side holes. The cold resistance is about the same, around 0.76 ohm. But if you glow it, it seems the coils embedded in the donut ceramic are different, as if they were fatter and looser. Initially there was more taste to burn off.
And BTW, I'm still getting a good match between the thermocouple held against the donut and sticking the atty in the mouth of the IR temp gun with emissivity set to 0.50. I've checked this many times now and starting to trust it.
With no oil or other loading, on the same mod and setting (200 DegF and 12 watts), the white shallow DT 2.5 averages around 400 degF, with peaks to 450. The new black one averages closer to 450 with peaks to 550 and up. Could it be because the deep dish retains more heat? A random variation?
The Chinese production style is to grab what's available, factories have never demanded that suppliers meet rigid specs, because they come from a background of "lucky you get parts at all". The general tone I've gotten there is always "Sure we'll make them just like that for you", before they even know the specs.
I doubt that even Matt has control over exactly what they ship him. But as long as Matt is treating us FC'ers well, I would surely recommend that people stick to the Divine Tribe units and avoid the e-bay look-alikes which will invariably be less predictable.
OF
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the additional information. Where do those temperature readings come from?
Interestingly when I did my T/C tests there were no "peaks" really........ Just a smooth ramp up with no overshoot I noticed.
The difference in temperatures between the genuine DC 2.5s and the Chinese copies might be from a different heater material? That is if the mod is driving to what it thinks is 200F in both cases, if one is really 400 and the other 450 that might explain it. But the 50 degree 'peaks' in one case and 100 plus in the other I don't understand. At least not yet.
Thanks again, food for thought as they say.
In other news, Matt reports that the heater in the DC is Nickle based (and therefore should work in TC mode), same as the DTs. He said it's been reported that the Kanger Mods will TC with the DC herb cart so I ordered a Kanger Kbox Mini to check out. His theory is the extra mass slows the heating down enough to trip the protective function in the mod back into power mode. Makes some sense, time will tell.
He claims to be awfully busy (which is easy to understand, the man has a lot of irons in the fire.....) and hasn't had time to visit with us as he'd like. He sends his best regards at any rate. I'm sure we'd rather put his efforts into new stuff, and of course he can still be contacted with questions/problems. Good guy.
OF
Steven
Well-Known Member
I got mines from. http://m.gearbest.com/temperature-control-mods/pp_261057.html. Sometimes I get lucky. I got this shipped to me in 10 days. It goes for like $33.
http://vapenw.com/presa-tc75w-by-wismec
This place has it for $35 shipped and may arrive much quicker.
The invader mini was great at the time because it was one of the very few that had a versatile tc mod that supports an external 18650 battery at the time. It is great that the market for single external 18650 mods is growing. I felt like it was going the other direction for a while, large high capacity mods for high power ecig users. I hope there are more single 18650 mods to come. Please share if anyone runs into an interesting one
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zikzak
Well-Known Member
I actually ordered this device from the above site yesterday before their shipping cut off (thanks to another member posting about the Presa! Reviews look great on YT, especially with new firmware from wismec). That happens to be 12 noon PST. From West coast to Midwest, it should be here Saturday according to USPS.
OF
Well-Known Member
Thanks OF, just ordered a couple Samsung
You're welcome. BTW, those batteries are intended for (portable electric) power tools. An OEM part, not intended for retail sales. They often show up different colors but thus far no fakes.
I think you'll enjoy them, or rather forget them. Battery issues (aside from recharging of course) just don't seem to happen.
OF
kernal6500
Well-Known Member
I'm having great success with the Eleaf-40watt. I dunno why u guys are so worried about this temp thing its not difficult. As long as its not glowing and its vaping your oil you are good!
Steven
Well-Known Member
I do agree in retrospect. Usage for the dt donut is pretty easy to pick up Imo too. However, I got the donut when I first switched over to wax, and I was having issues getting vapor production. We all know wax can get pretty $$$ so nobody wants to throw money away. But experimenting is a must if anyone wants to find their optimal sweet spot. I suggest getting cheap low grade wax and use that to experiment. Vw mode will produce more vapor in my experience but that is also partly because there is some burning Imo.
OF
Well-Known Member
Very glad you're happy with the iStick TC40W. I have two and think they're useful. However, I think temperature control is clearly superior if you can use it. You'll note a large difference in performance between a freshly loaded DT and one nearly empty? That doesn't happen to anything like that with TC.
Many of us strive for the best we can get. I think there's a huge clue here that most/all of us who try TC never go back......and that Matt promotes it on his site. He wants us to get the most out of his products and come back and buy more. He probably is not against us telling our friends so they will buy too.....
It's very much like the difference between a hand throttle and curse control. You can find a throttle setting that will give you an acceptable speed say on flat ground with no wind. Change grades (to up or down hill) or face a headwind or pick up a tailwind and you'll lose speed control. Cruse control notes the output (speed) and compensates for changes, likewise TC notes the output (temperature) and compensates automatically for you.
Have you actually tried one of the recommended TC mods? If not, I think you'll find the upgrade worth it. It's about controlling the process for best results I think.
Good point. Melting wax calls for extra heat, something the mod doesn't know about if in VW mode. TC compensates for this change automatically as it does for a lower or higher concentrate level.
Right again, you can for sure make more vapor with more heat, but if the load is smaller that more heat can lead to burning, which is worth avoiding.
OF
kernal6500
Well-Known Member
OF
Well-Known Member
Great, glad to hear it. I was responding to your not understanding "why u guys are so worried about this temp thing its not difficult". That is to explain why we are worried (or better 'concerned') about TC mode. Those of us with such mods could easily (in fact more easily) program them for VW mode instead, and yet we don't.
Do enjoy your TC40W, it's a good unit, I enjoyed mine. Still do for that matter, just not with DT. I'm grateful, however, when one of the usual suspects (Haywood?) recommended the VTC to take advantage of the TC function. Hopefully someday you'll get a chance to check it out as well.
Thanks.
OF