Divine Tribe atty's

[OF]

It looks so similar. But the 510 connector is different, and the thermal behavior of the donut is different. It's a good idea to stick to Matt's units for donut atties, if nothing else so we can share observations.

Excellent advice IMO. '...the thermal behavior is different' seals the deal for me. It's not like the DT stuff from Matt wasn't very reasonably priced for heaven's sake, ten bucks a base is a tiny fraction of the value of concentrates used in it. A $10 consumable is not as attractive as a $5 one for sure, but known performance against the randomness of EBay? I'll 'pay the extra five bucks' and advise others likewise. DT 2.5 and 2.7s (really the same base) are working very well, thank you very much........ Not to mess with things that are already working well?

Sounds like at least those 'clones' are being made with different magic doughnuts than Matt is offering us. Well worth knowing.

Thanks for the additional information, I'm still kind of curious about the 'pancake' version, but that's probably just being morbid......

OF

 

[fernand]

@Haywood, is the reason you order the higher rez atties a holdover from when we had to work with either fixed voltage or VW mods that couldn't be set to a low wattage, or is there another reason?

The way I see it, gear like the DT - used with a TC mod - is revolutionary. But it's the RDA equivalent. One load at a time. Yet the tanks that now come with Titanium and Nickel heads for TC, are just way too big and would be too wasteful to use with oil. We're either waiting for a greater variety of gear, or we have to DIY.

 

[Haywood]

@fernand: This is nothing new; as OF pointed out we're somewhat at the mercy of the e-cig mfgs. It's nice that we are going though a period where smaller mods are in fashion. I don't need a 200W monster with three cells.

I order the medium resistance atty's for a couple of reasons. All of my mods, even the eGo style, have always been variable voltage (at least), so even in the early days it was never really a matter of being out of control range. Not being able to go lower than 5W in later days was only a "problem" with my tank stuff (and a lower or higher resistance didn't matter as the mod lower limit was wattage based, not voltage based). I don't really go below 5W with my 510 atty's; usually 5W to 6W. Most 510 atty's (at least the brands I use) only go down to 1.5Ω; 510 atty's aren't really available in sub-ohm. All of them use kanthal or nichrome, neither of which is a suitable metal for TC. I don't like the taste of nichrome, so all the 510 atty's I buy are kanthal. I prefer a soft ramp up of the temp of the coil, so as to avoid burning the oil. After initial experimenting, I found I got better battery life and less oil burning (due to longer coil warm up time) when using a higher resistance coil. So I order 2.2Ω coils most of the time, but 2.0Ω coils are also fine (and 1.8Ω, if available at a great discount, like $9 for 5 of them). I avoided higher reisistance coils because they required higher voltages and became very scarce (because no one was buying them).

As it is, all the 510 atty's I like have bridges, and when I order a new batch I have to take an half hour or so and rip out all the bridges... But I can load a LOT more in one of them than I do in my DT atty, and they're tiny.

Nothing tastes as nice as the DT atty though, and I use it pretty much exclusively when I'm home. It's worth the additional time it takes to keep it clean, and the one dab at a time load maximum. And it wastes oil in the bottom. But it's still worth it.

 

[fernand]

@Haywood, as I recall you were loading up 2.2 ohm Joyetech 510 atties with erl, and it stayed above the "cup" line. The 510 atties I tried soaked up all the erl into the mesh around the cup.

When you say "waste oil in the bottom", you mean in the cup, beneath the donut, or down into the base after leaking out the air holes in the cup?

 

[Haywood]

I remember that interchange, now that you mention it. I still don't lose oil to the mesh surrounding the cup.

I mean the part of the DT atty that is below the main ceramic cup. Both just below it and in the metal base part. However the oil gets there. I haven't had bottom air hole leakage lately with the black china version (with the hole-less disc). Not sure if that's due to a slight difference in design or I'm just loading really tiny loads these days...

 

[fernand]

@Haywood Oh, I missed the fact that you have a pancake version! So I have some questions if I may:

1) Does oil get under the pancake in the cup, and does it cook differently there than above it? Any problems like say a darker more cooked leftover under the pancake? Any problem cleaning it up?

2) Are you running it with the Nickel profile on your Evic Mini, or are you using the programmable profiles (M1, M2, M3) with e.g. 245 TCR as many have used with the DT donut?

I now see you don't have a thermocouple. Do you have an IR temp gun? Try setting emissivity to 0.50 and see if the readings you get match your expectations. With a clean donut they match my thermocouples pretty closely. And there are even these IR guns now with a thermocouple port! Sweet! Two for the price of ... two.

@OF I can't find the posts where you derived that TCR. If we have a Temp rise of ~ 174 deg C (25 to 199 deg C) and a resistance rise of ~ 0.30 ohms, where is the 2450 coming from?

 

[fernand]

What do y'all do to force the evic VTC mini to reset, to reliably give the "new/same coil" dialog? It seems to have a mind of its own, and I don't know if it's reliably remembering or getting confused, or what.

Most thermocouples I got are bunk. They don't even agree on room temp or under my tongue. They're rated for different temp max, but is it just the insulation that's rated? The most consistent one I have has a 3" stainless shaft that's 3 mm thick. Of course it has to equilibrate to temperature, and the tip isn't flat, but at least it seems to give credible readings. But what DO you trust? Gotta look for a plain old mercury thermometer?

 

[elmoe420]

For anyone interested I just picked up an eVic Cuboid, flashed it to v3.11 and hit my DT 2.5 on it.

Works like a charm! It is literally an eVic VTC Mini but that takes two 18650s instead of one.

 

[OF]

@OF I can't find the posts where you derived that TCR. If we have a Temp rise of ~ 174 deg C (25 to 199 deg C) and a resistance rise of ~ 0.30 ohms, where is the 2450 coming from?

NO! Not '2450', 2450 ppm. Parts Per Million. Like 'percent on steroids, shift the decimal six places not two to get real numbers again. Big difference, a million times. The number is like .245%, .00245.

And then, for more fun, the VTC Mini (and Cuboid) 'go metric' on us and make you enter '245 when 2450 would be 'normal'. That is they want the ratio not in ppm or % (where you could 'look it up....') but in 'parts per hundred thousand'......

So we need one more piece of information, cold temperature. That .3 Ohm 'delta' is a huge deal if it started at .2 Ohms, but if it started at say 10 it's an entirely different value. Without that cold resistance no calculation.

Let's assume the case I reported, .77 Ohms to start? So that's a rise ratio of .3/.77..... .39 or about 39% total change. Over a range of 174 degrees gives us .39/174=.002239 by this calculator. This good stuff is pretty well covered in web pages written to different levels of understanding (including simply using it as a tool with copper as the model. I think I posted that link, I hope I did, I meant to... Easy enough to feed 'Google' something like 'metal resistance change with temperature' should give you several easy, useful hits. Click through them looking for less math you can't recognize and more pictures and videos?

This means our element resistance is assumed to rise uniformly .245% per degree C of change ('per' means dividing, like in 'miles per gallon'). Or 2450 ppm. It's a ratio kinda thing that has to account for base resistance (cold) as well in more refined cases the leads and contacts up to the heater element (which add to the total but change at a different rate if at all.

 

[fernand]

"Click through them looking for less math you can't recognize and more pictures and videos? ". Wow. But I'm not the one who prides himself on not using algebra. So it wasn't 2450 you were getting, it was 2239? Yes, I know about the exponent. Thanks anyway.

Testing with the evic VTC mini and hand-wound titanium T1 coils, noting resistance change 0.33 -> 0.53 ohm from 70 deg F to ~ 390 deg F, I'm impressed that the calculated TCR is so close to published values, and in the range the evic VTC doc specifies for Ti, namely 300-400.

With the white DT 2.7 I'm getting around 0.0022, i.e. set the TCR to 220, works better for me than 245.

With the black e-bay donut atty I'm getting around 0.0018, set the TCR to 180.
The black donut atty visibly has a different internal heater than the DT, looks similar to the ceramic pancake.

@Haywood maybe that 180 is a value to try on your pancake?

 

[SlinginPaint]

Just did a cleaning burn off on the VTC Mini @ 12w /245C. DT cold resistance is .77. I held the device upside down for several button cycles as the donut turned slightly red. I used small bit of paper towel to wipe away the oil that dripped out.

Once finished the donut looked clean, but when I loaded a little bit of the goods, it had a funny taste. is this normal with dry burning this cartridge, or should I have used a higher setting? or a lower setting?

Overall I love this setup. I am glad I bought 2 though!

 

[Bad Ocelot]

finally got the chance to mess around with my 2.5. Really liking it so far. Works very well in TC on my new Tesla Nano 60w set to 230F & 9.5w. Haven't gotten it dialed in on the Smok Treebox yet, but may give that a go again this evening. Only used the shallow bowl so far, and I do get some splashing onto the glass, but less so now that I turned the temp down.

I cracked the pyrex bell cap the first time I removed it from the base Hopefully those will be back in stock soon so I can order a few. Didn't immediately see any in the right size when I checked around. My measurements had it ~20mm. Anyone one know of an alternate glass piece that will fit?

 

[OF]

Once finished the donut looked clean, but when I loaded a little bit of the goods, it had a funny taste. is this normal with dry burning this cartridge, or should I have used a higher setting? or a lower setting?

I think so. I don't think well in degrees C, but when I did it it was hotter than that. Enough so I could briefly see the glow as the dark deposits burned off. You might check out the DT videos, Matt demonstrates cleaning and I think 'talks' about it in text elsewhere. You want to pulse just enough power to burn it clean, but only for that instant if you follow? "Flash it off". Temperature control is all wrong for the job. IIRC you want like 20 Watts (power mode) and a light touch on the button.

Then I wash again in PBW and dry it out. I've done this several times with only one fatality, a clear case of murder over suicide or dying of old age......

IMO it needs to get hot enough so no vapor comes off from the pulses, then any ash washed out along with concentrate 'baked out of' places it was safely hiding at lower temperatures.

Good show they're ten bucks each, having a couple in the box as insurance gives me confidence to use them and use them and.....

OF

 

[Steven]

I use a different approach to cleaning compared to what is suggested by Matt but if works for me. I agree with OF about using Wattage mode for cleaning. The donut needs enough heat to make it glow

Using 20 watts makes me nervous. I fear of breaking the atty and hope I have extras. I use 11 watts and just keep recycling the power button until it glows. Sometimes I'll keep recycling the power button for a minute straight. The atty gets pretty damn hot by the end of the deed. So hot I actually use a silicone wristband to wrap the atty for handling. I'm not worried that the atty will break but I unscrew the atty from the mod because I don't want the heat to transfer to the mod. I've never broken an atty this way. I've only broken them when scraping or when I switch out attys and forget to change settings back to the dt donut. I still scrape but I've honed my skills and an atty looks almost brand new for months

 

[Steven]

The orange ball portion of these pin needles are a perfect sized reference for loading the dt donut for good results ime. This is the size loads I pack in the dt donut when using shatter or crumble. 1 hit burns off the little ball for me. Many times I pre roll these balls and have them ready for loading when I'm on the go. It's funny, I use this needle as a tool and noticed the ball part is exactly my load sizes

 

[fernand]

@Steven how big is that orange ball in mm or inch fractions or something?

 

[Steven]

@fernand I'm not to sure. I won't be home til later tonight. But I thought I gave a pretty common reference for everyone to compare to. It's like a bit smaller than an unpoped kernal of popcorn. I honestly don't even think I have a ruler anymore either but I'll try and measure it when I get home

 

[Steven]

@fernand the ball is about 4 mm

 

[Bad Ocelot]

I load a ball roughly the size of a bb. Usually get a few hits out of it. I pre-roll the balls too, ha. Someone needs to develop a small refrigerated tube that can easily dispense these things on the go

 

[tepictoton]

Haha I think bb does not mean baseball? Just imagining this is a blast Lol

 

[Detonator]

ok I guess I was wrong about the TC not working.

Today I tried it again, and it seems to work..

Using the TC setting on my Clouper TC I locked in the res at .77 ohm and set temp to 220 F

On TC my Clouper decides how much power to apply, and it gave the load 35 Jules initially on the first hit... It was a good big hit..

The little load was pretty much spent after one hit.... I pushed the button again to see what the Power read out would be... it went down to 17J and 14 J quickly... So it seems TC is working...

I think I remember someone suggesting 220 deg F... but I can't remember... what temps are you using?

 

[Darb]

200 celcius for me.

 

[fernand]

@Detonator It depends on so many factors, best to cut and try, ideally checking w/ a thermocouple.

On my KangXin Mini VF, which only has a Nickel profile like the Invader Mini, I was using around 200 Deg F with 12 watts. Of course that's not a real 200 Deg F. I measure around 400 deg F at the donut.

With the Evic VTC Mini once I customize the TCR to "220", set the wattage to 12 and the target temp to 380, the donut hunts around 380-400 deg F. On devices where you can't adjust the TCR it's down to trial and error. But 12 watts is always a good max.

@Steven thanks, 4mm. A BB is about 6 mm.

 

[OF]

I load a ball roughly the size of a bb.

Haha I think bb does not mean baseball? Just imagining this is a blast Lol

For sure not Baseball. It's the ammo for Red Riders, and correctly spelled capitalized: "BB" is correct in this strange case since it's related to guns were everything is a strange case. Originally based on 'the center' of shotgun pellets (between the numbers on the small size and 'buckshot', 'swanshot', the letter sizes up to OO Buck on the big side. BB is in the center. Lead shot in BB is .180 inches, but standard BB gun ammo is reduced to .177 since the steel is too hard to 'squeeze through' a tight spot in a kids BB gun.

This is my standard load on a needle as well. "About BB size", a bit over 1/8 inch. About the size of the head on a paper match. With oils (which I like) I'll pick up a BB size ball and hold it over the doughnut and quickly heat the pin half an inch or so behind it with my lighter for a second or two. A few seconds later the pin gets warm enough as the heat moves down for the ball to slide off under complete control. I then heat again so the pin is plenty hot and push the tip into the drop of oil on the doughnut. This basically removes all the remaining oil sticking to the pin (although I wipe anyway), nothing is lost.

BTW getting a safety pin about the right size (I'm using number 2s I think) is a handy way to carry the loading needle safely. Just spring it open some to use it, fold it up when done.

OF

 

[skyler544]

So I have a question about 18650 cells, if anyone here knows a thing or two. When I got my eVic-VTC Mini I also ordered two 18650s from Divine Tribe. Tucker was the one on the email and he said that the Imren 3200 mAh 40Amp cells would do the trick. I received them, they're working well. A couple of my friends use the high powered e-Cigarette vaporizers with high-watt multiple cell mods, and when they saw which cells I had they both started laughing and saying I need to send them back and get some Sonys (the ones they recommend are also the most highly counterfeited cell, the vtc6 [also not being manufactured any longer afaik]). I started looking it up though, and from what I can tell their knowledge of it comes from people setting those high watt mods on fire accidentally. Essentially the 4 or so Amps the DT pushes when you hit it couldn't possibly blow up a 40 Amp cell? At .7 ohms? Are Imrens really plagued by rewrap and counterfeit problems? I can't seem to find much solid info, just arguments.



And you folks must be working with runnier materials than I. I generally just pick up a little shard between thumb and index finger and make a small snake or wad out of it and drop it in the atomizer. With legalization in effect here the methods of extraction generally are better and customers aren't settling for less than highly stable Shatter. If I do come across the odd Budder or Crumble, I tend to use a dual end stainless steel sculpting pick (clay, wax, soap carving). Shovel for Crumble, spear for Budder, then warm the tool above the wax with a lighter and wipe the blade into a silicon as soon as it melts a little