Divine Tribe atty's

[OF]

here is a little video i made to help with some problems with the quest,

Great! It confirms a couple of the details I found. I called the threaded plate a 'saddle' but it can move to the side and bring the 'shorted' fault. Playing with it fixed that problem.

Likewise I found that carefully stacking the leads in the slot, so the screw presses well on both of them, fixed a lot of the other problems. The 'skips out if it starts over .3 Ohms' idea is probably spot on as that issue also disappeared when I got the contact under the screws right.

I seem to be OK now (although still can't use it, curses.......), but for sure I'm about to put myself on the list for upgraded screws (or other parts) when they become available.

Thanks much, nice to know I was on the right track.

OF

 

[JCat]

So if using Arctic Fox what would the recommended settings be? Anxiously awaiting mine ... was in Canada as of the past weekend

 

[OF]

So if using Arctic Fox what would the recommended settings be? Anxiously awaiting mine ... was in Canada as of the past weekend

I really think you'll have to work that out for yourself, or wait until someone does it for you. And I truly think you should use the factory software which is known to work. This is not the sort of load AF is designed to service. This is NOT 'an e-cig' burning 'juice'. Your call.

Otherwise Matt suggests TCR settings for the factory software, I'd start there........

Good luck.

OF

 

[JCat]

I really think you'll have to work that out for yourself, or wait until someone does it for you. And I truly think you should use the factory software which is known to work. This is not the sort of load AF is designed to service. This is NOT 'an e-cig' burning 'juice'. Your call.

Otherwise Matt suggests TCR settings for the factory software, I'd start there........

Good luck.

OF

Thanks ... suppose I could go back to the regular firmware ... have the AF firmware loaded for the DTv3 for which it seemed to work quite well! Is it not possible to use the settings in the AF firmware for similar TCR to the factory software? (I guess you are saying you can, but not sure what the settings would be)

I don't feel like messing with it to figure it out, so likely I'll go with whatever everyone else recommends and has good luck with!

Thanks!

 

[FMSQ]

I am new here. Been lurking for a while, and appreciate all of information and insight shared here. I post most of my Divine Tribe discussion and photos on my Reddit account, but I believe this is good place to trade information and to learn from others. I am here to learn.

I just wanted to share my first experiences with the Quest (it is a parallel to my Reddit post in the /r/waxpen sub)

https://www.reddit.com/r/Waxpen/comments/7rfu45/a_quick_review_of_the_divine_tribe_dt_quartz/

This was based off five (5) consecutive sessions with the 1st production run of the QQs, all of which I faced none of the issues that others experienced.

The QQ will remain a desktop piece for me, because I favor water filtration and my current setup with the QQ requires it to stay on the table or counter, on books. It keeps it level and steady.

• Everything came packaged well and was sent promptly by DT
• The QQ is still NEW, there are known issues reported, which may require user maintenance and tinkering (DT is there to help and has provided useful videos)
• Tighten screws carefully before use, start LOW on the settings and work your way up
• Learn how the cup heats
• Draw slow and do not overload
• Lube O-rings

TC Settings Ni mode 310°F 44.5W

Pros

Strong, effective cannabis vaporization at low temps
Direct inject airflow into the cup
Amazingly simple design and sleek look
Get to watch the melting and concentrate vaporization
Glass mouthpiece, very clean tasting
Can clean it with a q-tip after

Cons

I do not have much negative to say except for:

Glass is wonderful for flavor, but prone to breakage.
Some users report TC and screws/screwdriver issues
Some may find the draw restricted due to the single air intake tube (I recommend a slow draw anyway)
Some may not find the tinkering aspect attractive
Have to clean it with a q-tip after

More photos here: https://imgur.com/a/7VpWs

 

[KeroZen]

You're missing the point with P and I values, they are basically useless here since there's a many seconds time constant between heater and concentrate. In a loop this slow nothing fancy is called for and could easily make it oscillate out of control. I'd suggest staying way clear.

I completely disagree here! And your remark about seeing the coil pulsing in your previous long post attest to the fact you are still using the archaic stock TC implementation that is proven to be completely crap. Just open the NFE device monitor and watch how it cuts on and off like crazy. I even posted many graphs in the firmware discussion thread, it's just plain horrible. It's like trying to dim your light bulb just by using a on/off switch!

You'll get a much smoother regulation with barely any pulsing when using the PI(D) algos from the custom firmware, even with a slow large mass heater. The power is updated at about 100 Hz and continuously changes and reacts as soon as you draw. Really I wouldn't call a proper regulation loop "fancy", it's the bare minimum I would use these days. Plus it really works with much larger heaters having more inertia, we managed to regulate massive mesh heaters with them.

By the way most other chipsets on the market are way better than the joyetech/wismec/eleaf trifecta, out of the box and without requiring much fiddling with obscure parameters. I don't recommend these brands anymore, they are really entry level mods and nothing more, and worse their 510 port is quite crappy, I only got problems with them.

Sorry for the rant but I don't like when you sound refractory to change like an old fart! Teehee! (but I like you nonetheless)

 

[JCat]

I completely disagree here! And your remark about seeing the coil pulsing in your previous long post attest to the fact you are still using the archaic stock TC implementation that is proven to be completely crap. Just open the NFE device monitor and watch how it cuts on and off like crazy. I even posted many graphs in the firmware discussion thread, it's just plain horrible. It's like trying to dim your light bulb just by using a on/off switch!

You'll get a much smoother regulation with barely any pulsing when using the PI(D) algos from the custom firmware, even with a slow large mass heater. The power is updated at about 100 Hz and continuously changes and reacts as soon as you draw. Really I wouldn't call a proper regulation loop "fancy", it's the bare minimum I would use these days. Plus it really works with much larger heaters having more inertia, we managed to regulate massive mesh heaters with them.

By the way most other chipsets on the market are way better than the joyetech/wismec/eleaf trifecta, out of the box and without requiring much fiddling with obscure parameters. I don't recommend these brands anymore, they are really entry level mods and nothing more, and worse their 510 port is quite crappy, I only got problems with them.

Sorry for the rant but I don't like when you sound refractory to change like an old fart! Teehee! (but I like you nonetheless)

So ... do you have some suggestions for TCR settings for the AF firmware then? What PI values should I be using? (I'm really clueless in this area right now ... maybe I should look up the math for the PID algorithm being used and then maybe I'll understand a little better ... ...)

 

[OF]

Just open the NFE device monitor and watch how it cuts on and off like crazy.

Sorry for the rant but I don't like when you sound refractory to change like an old fart! Teehee! (but I like you nonetheless)

I get what you're saying, and think I understand the situation well enough. You're ignoring the time constant thing? This is a very slow system, highly damped. Unlike E-cigs there's a serious lag in response that has to be accounted for.

You don't need proportional control with your car, really. You could also stab the gas on and off and hold speed, right? As long as the average was right. The pulsing I see is an artifact of that. By the time the heater is too hot and shuts down there is still a lot of energy stored which is what causes the overshoot that keeps it off for a while. It 'coasts' some? The temperature at the load doesn't vary nearly as much.

PID controllers are a bad choice in your home heating for the same (time constant) reasons. Instead 'anticipators' are used. A small heater inside the thermostat in series with the control line heats the sensor artificially high so it shuts down early and 'scavenges' the heat in the furnace to arrive on temperature.

In electronic terms we look at closed loop feedback systems like we have here (where you look at the actual result and modify inputs to correct errors) we talk of 'phases'. To be stable you need a gain greater than 1 and a phase shift of less than 180 degrees. That is you must ensure always that you never 'respond the wrong way'. Like heating something that's too hot, or applying more throttle when the car is already at 70 (or whatever) MPH. Oscillation results, often fatally.

Because of the time factor such high speed loops offer no advantage at the load and introduce the chance of problems. Simple works better I think? No advantage, increased risks? Easy call for me.

I agree it has it's place, I just don't think this is one of them. And I'm sure not going to go about giving advice on something I and AFAIK nobody has tried? Have you? What do you recommend? I'll stick with advice I have confidence/experience in.

I might be old, but I really do think I know what I'm talking about here. In fact my credential to teach it is still valid. Are you ready for the test? Take out half a sheet of paper, put your name at the top.......

Thanks for the advice. I do use such aftermarket software other times, more for the features than any advantage in stability, but think here is a bad thing to advise without understanding and experience. No useful advantage where it counts?

Absent more information I'll stick with advising the proven, factory program. It works quite well......

OF

 

[looney2nz]

@Vape Donkey 650 probably has the PID info for AF, he's probably got the production unit by now too?

and just a quick aside... this flu? is no fucking joke.
be careful
protect yourself (n95 masks, gloves) if you are around people (especially health services)
stay safe and well

 

[2clicker]

I want to try one then?

not sure i follow. i thought you were asking why the coil or heater was exposed to concentrates. and why the quartz doesnt cover the heaters so oil does not touch them...?

i was just saying that they are separate from the concentrates. oil will never touch the heaters. the heaters heat the quartz cup and that is what the concentrates vape off of. the heaters are encased in quartz.

if im mistaken and you know this already then my bad.

 

[ataxian]

not sure i follow. i thought you were asking why the coil or heater was exposed to concentrates. and why the quartz doesnt cover the heaters so oil does not touch them...?

i was just saying that they are separate from the concentrates. oil will never touch the heaters. the heaters heat the quartz cup and that is what the concentrates vape off of. the heaters are encased in quartz.

if I'm mistaken and you know this already then my bad.

I guess I'm misunderstood as usual.
Sorry my bad!

I'm curious is all?

 

[2clicker]

I guess I'm misunderstood as usual.
Sorry my bad!

I'm curious is all?

i am as well. looking forward to knowing though!

and i know all about being misunderstood. i could try to be all nice n sweet with my wife and she would think inwas being an ass... lol. off topic af.

 

[ataxian]

i am as well. looking forward to knowing though!

and i know all about being misunderstood. i could try to be all nice n sweet with my wife and she would think inwas being an ass... lol. off topic af.

I'm a goof-off. (really)

My wife & kid's think I think too much?

I love to medicate & CANNABIS is harmless.

Most manufacturer's are still discovering how to ingest this MIRACLE PLANT.

Like most HOMO SAPIENS we all think we know the best way to do thing's?

 

[KeroZen]

@OF: of course the time factor and system inertia are important, but you can't compare our attys to a home heater or a large reservoir filled with water etc. We're talking about ridiculously tiny coils and a few grams of quartz or ceramic etc around them.

Granted I have zero experience with that particular DT model, but as I said I used these firmware to drive rather large (all is relative) SS mesh heaters. And it works in the iHeat which has a few grams of steel to heat too.

I agree it's a bit different in that DT case as the quartz must be heated and it has a rather low thermal conductivity. In the case of convection dry herb vapes the heater just heats moving air. But is it really *that* slow?

You could try less aggressive loop parameters to minimize overshoot maybe? One advantage is that once you install myevic or AF, you can keep the stock algo if you want but you have access to the NFE device monitor with a live plot of the resistance. It's very straightforward to tweak the PI(D) parameters and see the effects on screen right after, although not fully real-time as you have to go back and forth in the config.

Maybe you could find a set of parameters that has a tendency to always undershoot and rise slowly, this way you would be sure it never goes haywire and the inertia due to the quartz mass would smooth the real temperature down anyway?

At least, I'm 100% positive that for dry herb attachments, PI(D) is a clear improvement over the stock algo. My coils are not pulsing and don't need to glow at all, the overshoot is really lower in comparison.

 

[OF]

@OF: of course the time factor and system inertia are important, but you can't compare our attys to a home heater or a large reservoir filled with water etc. We're talking about ridiculously tiny coils and a few grams of quartz or ceramic etc around them.

I really think can include such things as examples, size of the system really has nothing to do with the factors involved. Controlling the speed of your car by closed loop (feedback) is the same technically as the thermostat in your living room or TC in your vape from a technical POV.

I used to work with Electron Microscopes as used in Material Science (half worldwide are used for such critical research to make our daily lives better, the other half are wasted on Biology.....). Specifically in a segment called 'In-situ' ("in place") work. Typically a 3mm disk half a mm or so thick (very tiny) inside the vacuum while the beam is on. Then you heat cycle and watch grains form and move around and stuff, or stretch it and watch it fail along grain boundaries and stuff. Controlling the temperature (where beam heating can cause 20C or more shifts) was part of the experiment. The same rules apply at this (literally) microscopic level. MUCH smaller than here. In fact, in some cases the time constants are so short PID controls fail and you revert to manual (slowly dial the current to control temperature rather than letting some machine goof it up). Too hard to keep phase in line at that level. You can get an indicated rise from the TC on the specimen stage while in fact the heater has cooled off below average and really needs more power......

Please understand I have no objection to experimenting with AR or any other scheme, but I do think it's very important when some newbie asks advice we give him reliable, tested advice when it's available? I'm not about to recommend something I haven't personally tried if there's an alternative. Especially when I know the subject has 'traps' for the unwary potentially. The factory program works well, both by report, maker's recommendation (Matt) and my personal experience.

If someone has actually done it, found it superior (or even problem free) I think it's fine to recommend something......good even? But that's not me. I stand by what I recommend, am happy to 'defend' it with both theory and experience. Again, not necessarily the only solution, but the one I have confidence in. My recommendations might not always be optimum (or popular), but I work very hard to keep them reliable.

Thanks.

OF

 

[KeroZen]

Controlling the speed of your car by closed loop (feedback) is the same technically as the thermostat in your living room or TC in your vape from a technical POV.

Right but instead of the car or truck analogy, I could counter you by using a japanese motorcycle where throttle, given the right gear, translates almost immediately to acceleration (and a deadly wheeling if you over indulge!)

TCR is used in the Tubo Evic for instance, which is gaining in popularity, where the heater consists of several coils in parallel, each encased in glass tubes, the whole thing being encased again in glass. He was able to fine tune the PID parameters using the custom firmware he forked from myevic and there's practically no overshoot at the coils themselves, despite a comparable total mass. There is some lag to get the whole glass mass around to sink enough heat and get the thing rolling like a train, so the first hit might be wispier, but afterwards it's pretty solid. He recently posted a video to confirm that with an external thermocouple.

Again, the best recommendation I have is to use mods with better chipsets, like SmoAnt, the OMNI chipset in Vaporesso and of course DNA, YiHi, Dicodes, Hohmtech. All these chipsets have some form of PI(D) loop built right into them, and the higher end ones have better resolution ADC's.

I'm reposting the graphs of the stock algo on the evic VTC mini here, first is voltage output, second is computed temperature. To me this is just not acceptable, and for on-demand convection dry herb vaping it resulted in much charring and a completely inconsistent experience from bowl to bowl. One could even argue that using plain "power mode" and doing the regulation manually by feathering the trigger would have worked better (and many do in the Splinter and iHeat threads) :

(I even had to change the scale on that second graph as the peaks (1446°C lol?!) were just too high and probably not realistic, although I could really see the coil pulse red hot at the same rate the peaks appeared on screen)

Contrast that to this graph, using a very badly tuned PID on the exact same setup, where the single significant overshoot peak was only 3°C above set point (all extrapolated and only at the coil of course) :

Full story in the firmware discussion thread for those wanting to join the fun >> http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/tc-box-mods-firmware-discussions-and-customizing.23742/

 

[OF]

Again, the best recommendation I have is to use mods with better chipsets, like SmoAnt, the OMNI chipset in Vaporesso and of course DNA, YiHi, Dicodes, Hohmtech. All these chipsets have some form of PI(D) loop built right into them, and the higher end ones have better resolution ADC's.

Cool by me. We just differ? You seem interested in 'the very best available', I'm big on 'what's the cheapest, simplest way to get it to work reliably'. More important for newbies than old hands?

Let's think a bit about what's needed? Do we really need 1 degree resolution? Solo has about 15 degrees F of hysteresis IIRC. It might say 'step 4' (392F ?) but the heater might not come on until it hits say 380 and overshoot to 395. Does it make a difference? Naw, the average temperature in the load stays pretty constant and also has a wide distribution (that is the load is actually at different temperatures in different locations as indicated by color change).

So, here we monitor the temperature at the heater. How does that really reflect the load, and surely it's not uniform either across the bottom (where it's maybe 3 times further from hot on the edge than the center, nor up the walls.

One last thought on resolution vs precision. More numbers doesn't mean a better reading. If you read say current through a 10 Bit D/A (common) you really only have a thousand counts to work with. Telling you current to four places is obviously a problem? If it's say 'half scale' the processor only 'knows' to the nearest .2 percent? Plus or minus a count typically. Pretty crude, really. You can see this in some vapes as 'granularity' by watching the degrees F rise and fall. Most are set up for C internally so they 'skip counts' in F so they 'show' 9 degrees change for what would be only 5 counts in C. This is also why they typically 'mask' the last 10 degrees or so?

One of my pet peeves when teaching this good stuff was when a Student would take say a current reading and voltage reading with a 3.5 digit (reads to 1.999) Digital meter, then haul out the calculator. Theyd then give me a power answer (product of current and voltage) to 7 significant figures 'cuz that's what the display says. And believe it. In reality the meter is at best 1% (when new, if it was on spec even then, after some use by Students......) in both readings and you get further handicapped in that you might not use all 2000 counts (use 1000 and now it's 2%, use 500 (read '4.95 Volts' say) and you're almost guessing.

Fun stuff. We just have different answers for what to drive to the store for a six pack? Helcat is a nice ride I hear, but a Toyota will get there.....and use less gas, and start every time. And I'm sure not big on giving the new guy the superbike you illude to either.......

Thanks,

OF

 

[ataxian]

I really think can include such things as examples, size of the system really has nothing to do with the factors involved. Controlling the speed of your car by closed loop (feedback) is the same technically as the thermostat in your living room or TC in your vape from a technical POV.

I used to work with Electron Microscopes as used in Material Science (half worldwide are used for such critical research to make our daily lives better, the other half are wasted on Biology.....). Specifically in a segment called 'In-situ' ("in place") work. Typically a 3mm disk half a mm or so thick (very tiny) inside the vacuum while the beam is on. Then you heat cycle and watch grains form and move around and stuff, or stretch it and watch it fail along grain boundaries and stuff. Controlling the temperature (where beam heating can cause 20C or more shifts) was part of the experiment. The same rules apply at this (literally) microscopic level. MUCH smaller than here. In fact, in some cases the time constants are so short PID controls fail and you revert to manual (slowly dial the current to control temperature rather than letting some machine goof it up). Too hard to keep phase in line at that level. You can get an indicated rise from the TC on the specimen stage while in fact the heater has cooled off below average and really needs more power......

Please understand I have no objection to experimenting with AR or any other scheme, but I do think it's very important when some newbie asks advice we give him reliable, tested advice when it's available? I'm not about to recommend something I haven't personally tried if there's an alternative. Especially when I know the subject has 'traps' for the unwary potentially. The factory program works well, both by report, maker's recommendation (Matt) and my personal experience.

If someone has actually done it, found it superior (or even problem free) I think it's fine to recommend something......good even? But that's not me. I stand by what I recommend, am happy to 'defend' it with both theory and experience. Again, not necessarily the only solution, but the one I have confidence in. My recommendations might not always be optimum (or popular), but I work very hard to keep them reliable.

Thanks.

OF

All due respect @OF

I am playing, experimenting with way's to ingest CANNABIS?

You seem to know more than most!
So a version 3 I will buy.

U have convined me to try!

EGO?
Put your EGO in your pocket!
If it will fit?

 

[OF]

All due respect @OF

U have convined me to try!

Not to worry about respect at this point, that was so 'long ago'......

Great you've decided to give it a go. I bet you like it big time although you might end up favoring the 2.5 for routine use like some/many of us? It's a real treat not to have to worry about 'cooking the oil' once set up. That TCR is cool. No, make that hot. No, 'great temperature control'?

You remain 'da man' in Solodom, be nice to hear your 'take' here. Please don't be shy....

OF

 

[2clicker]

U have convined me to try!

well if there is blame to be handed out then i should own up to mine as well.

my apologies and youre welcome

 

[ArchVape]

PWM boards use on and off to regulate the output signal. Looks like a ramp/steps. Has a very choppy up voltage signal. The down voltage is much smoother. Cost of mods which use PWM are around $50 ( VTC mini, Eleaf, Smoktech ).

DC to DC boards have a very stable up voltage signal. Use PWN for down voltage. The signal is stable and very little peaks. DC to DC mods usally started at around $80 ( DNA boards, IPV, Gene, VooPoo).

 

[2clicker]

PWM boards use on and off to regulate the output signal. Looks like a ramp/steps. Has a very choppy up voltage signal. The down voltage is much smoother. Cost of mods which use PWM are around $50 ( VTC mini, Eleaf, Smoktech ).

DC to DC boards have a very stable up voltage signal. Use PWN for down voltage. The signal is stable and very little peaks. DC to DC mods usally started at around $80 ( DNA boards, IPV, Gene, VooPoo).

older model DNA (and similar) mods, that have been out for a while, can be found for around $50-60. just throwing that out there.

 

[Bad Ocelot]

I'm using it with Arctic Fox. It's what I use for the other Divine tribe stuff I have so just added a profile. It works just fine with the recommended settings on that pamphlet in the box (TCR=470, Temp=300F, 60w) although I stepped it down to 55w with no real difference in performance & it's a little easier on the battery. I've got it on an eleaf pico at the moment & I'm using the heat sink but the mod still gets pretty warm. I've got a dual 18650 invoke coming, thinking that may be a little cooler.

Looks like I avoided a lot of the problems some have had, mine worked out of the box. In doing the first couple dry runs I got a few wisps of smoke but couldn't determine the source & haven't seen any since so I think I'm in the clear.

While the recommended settings work fine I may try stepping down the TCR & raising the temp to get a somewhat accurate readout on the screen.

 

[JCat]

I'm using it with Arctic Fox. It's what I use for the other Divine tribe stuff I have so just added a profile. It works just fine with the recommended settings on that pamphlet in the box (TCR=470, Temp=300F, 60w) although I stepped it down to 55w with no real difference in performance & it's a little easier on the battery. I've got it on an eleaf pico at the moment & I'm using the heat sink but the mod still gets pretty warm. I've got a dual 18650 invoke coming, thinking that may be a little cooler.

Looks like I avoided a lot of the problems some have had, mine worked out of the box. In doing the first couple dry runs I got a few wisps of smoke but couldn't determine the source & haven't seen any since so I think I'm in the clear.

While the recommended settings work fine I may try stepping down the TCR & raising the temp to get a somewhat accurate readout on the screen.

What did you set the PI values to?

 

[Bad Ocelot]

What did you set the PI values to?

P=900 I=20
Those are just the values I've been using for the Dt 2.5 & 3.0, dunno if they could be better optimized for the QQ