COVID-19 News

[cybrguy]

Guys. Stop focusing on the increasing number of cases. The only thing that matters is deaths...

While it is true that the number of deaths may be an objective measure of the severity of the diseases effects on the population at large, many of the people who get it and don't die will likely suffer from the disease for the rest of their lives. Many people who got it in March and April are still suffering greatly from it. Many will likely have permanent lung damage, many have unexplained neurological damage, etc. The number of infections DOES matter as death is only one of the diseases potentially permanent symptoms. We need to do whatever can be done to reduce infections. To not do so is suicide.

 

[ginolicious]

While it is true that the number of deaths may be an objective measure of the severity of the diseases effects on the population at large, many of the people who get it and don't die will likely suffer from the disease for the rest of their lives. Many people who got it in March and April are still suffering greatly from it. Many will likely have permanent lung damage, many have unexplained neurological damage, etc. The number of infections DOES matter as death is only one of the diseases potentially permanent symptoms. We need to do whatever can be done to reduce infections. To not do so is suicide.

yes. The amount of lingering after effects from this disease is wild. No different then what happened to the survivors of SARS in 2003.

 

[florduh]

While it is true that the number of deaths may be an objective measure of the severity of the diseases effects on the population at large, many of the people who get it and don't die will likely suffer from the disease for the rest of their lives. Many people who got it in March and April are still suffering greatly from it. Many will likely have permanent lung damage, many have unexplained neurological damage, etc. The number of infections DOES matter as death is only one of the diseases potentially permanent symptoms. We need to do whatever can be done to reduce infections. To not do so is suicide.

Oh, I'm sorry. I was lightly making fun of the people who say only the number of deaths matter. And even if that were true, Florduh just had their highest number of recorded deaths since the start of the pandemic.

I agree that infections absolutely matter. I'm 35. It seems like every week I'll hear of someone around my age who got hit with COVID real bad. They might not die, but they're bedridden for weeks. Can't climb up stairs for months. And possibly have permanent lung or circulatory system damage that will come back to bite them in the ass in a few decades. Pretty terrifying.

This ain't "just the flu".

 

[cybrguy]

I think it is too early to even tell if there may be some Zika like effects on newborns. We are still very early in the epidemiology of this disease.

 

[Tranquility]

If you are afraid of catching Covid, properly wear an n95 mask and face shield when you go out.

This absolutely IS "just the flu" when you look at statistics. Next year, Covid will be lumped in with Pneumonia and Influenza statistics and the totals will be about the same from year to year. Then, rather than "just the flu" we'll say "just the PIC". While there are some concerns that some small segment of the population may suffer from some long-term nervous system complications from Covid, look up the influenza-associated central nervous system dysfunctions and find an amazing thing. A literature review shows:
Influenza imposes a sizeable burden of CNS disease. Increased awareness and monitoring of CNS function is indicated, especially in infants and young children.

Disease is a nasty thing. Describing the exact processes can get gross. Pointing out the processes to people without context is not that useful as gross disease things are scary. You can get CNS deficit from the flu. We don't know the numbers as each "flu" is different. But, it happens. Fear of how disease looks is just that, fear. The good thing is, people who are really afraid can protect themselves.

 

[cybrguy]

Choosing who to believe and who to trust can be a life or death decision these days. Choose wisely...

 

[florduh]

This absolutely IS "just the flu" when you look at statistics.

I dunno. I've literally never met anyone from ages 30-40 who couldn't climb the stairs months after catching the flu. I can't remember anyone in that age range even being hospitalized, though I'm sure it happens. It seems to be common enough occurrence with COVID that I'm regularly hearing it from people in my social circle or news stories. And at least with the people I know, they are healthier than the average American. Or were, at least.

I agree, it's very unlikely that most people will catch a bad case of COVID. But if someone handed you a big bag of Skittles and said "only one is laced with cyanide"... how many would you eat?

And saying the people who are scared can stay home or HAZMAT up, and the rest of us can just go on living our lives sounds nice. But what if you're some poor schmuck working a $10/hr high volume customer service job you desperately need. You don't have access to N95's. A percentage of your customers don't give a fuck about social distancing or masks (however effective they may be). Then your only choices are to reach into that bag of Skittles, or starve to death.

I don't think we know enough about this disease yet to say it's safer or more dangerous than the flu or anything else. It's the known unknowns that always get ya.

 

[ginolicious]

I dunno. I've literally never met anyone from ages 30-40 who couldn't climb the stairs months after catching the flu. I can't remember anyone in that age range even being hospitalized, though I'm sure it happens. It seems to be common enough occurrence with COVID that I'm regularly hearing it from people in my social circle or news stories. And at least with the people I know, they are healthier than the average American. Or were, at least.

I agree, it's very unlikely that most people will catch a bad case of COVID. But if someone handed you a big bag of Skittles and said "only one is laced with cyanide"... how many would you eat?

And saying the people who are scared can stay home or HAZMAT up, and the rest of us can just go on living our lives sounds nice. But what if you're some poor schmuck working a $10/hr high volume customer service job you desperately need. You don't have access to N95's. A percentage of your customers don't give a fuck about social distancing or masks (however effective they may be). Then your only choices are to reach into that bag of Skittles, or starve to death.

I don't think we know enough about this disease yet to say it's safer or more dangerous than the flu or anything else. It's the known unknowns that always get ya.

love the skittles comment. I use it all the time.

 

[Tranquility]

And saying the people who are scared can stay home or HAZMAT up, and the rest of us can just go on living our lives sounds nice. But what if you're some poor schmuck working a $10/hr high volume customer service job you desperately need. You don't have access to N95's. A percentage of your customers don't give a fuck about social distancing or masks (however effective they may be). Then your only choices are to reach into that bag of Skittles, or starve to death.

It is the same problem always. But, that is an economic argument that is not going to be changed in this situation. Some may want to change the entire economy to accommodate that poor schmuck. Social distancing or others wearing masks should not affect if a properly worn n95 and face shield works. Don't people have to address their own fears at some point?

As to the Skittles with the M&M mixed in, we don't just have that bag, we also have another with M&Ms and a Skittle mixed in too. Deaths are going to happen because of the disruption of the food chain. More disruption = more deaths.
COVID-19 Linked Hunger Could Cause More Deaths Than The Disease Itself, New Report Finds

Deaths go up when unemployment goes up. A study reported in the book "Corporate Flight: The Causes and Consequences of Economic Dislocation”:
According to one study [the one by Bluestone et al.] a 1 percent increase in the unemployment rate will be associated with 37,000 deaths [including 20,000 heart attacks], 920 suicides, 650 homicides, 4,000 state mental hospital admissions and 3,300 state prison admissions
Now, that's an old study that may not hold up. We need a starting point though.

Deaths go up when we get isolated. It is as bad as smoking.
Social Isolation: A Predictor of Mortality Comparable to Traditional Clinical Risk Factors

If we want to start talking risk that affects the CNS as in some Covid patients:
Social Ties and Susceptibility to the Common Cold

And, suicide:
COVID-19 and suicide
California doctor claims he’s seen more deaths by suicide than coronavirus

Domestic violence (Thank God, not yet. Just suspected.):
Coronavirus and Domestic Violence: What You Should Know
although the ever correct Wikipedia quotes a person calling it a "horrifying global surge":
Impact of the COVID-19 pandemic on domestic violence

The government threw trillions of dollars to make the shut down hurt less. People are not grasping the reality of the economic situation right now as the magic money can't keep on coming. (It's not like there was a big pile of it not getting spent.) There is going to be a ton of pain from the loss of wealth that is going to be focused on those less fortunate. Some of it may be made up by the wealth transfer of the taxes that are sure to go up to pay for the shutdown as well as less wage competition in an environment that is probably going be inflation rich. (Wages will have down pressure and things to buy will have up pressure.) For some reason, I'm guessing they won't be made whole. Even though they didn't die.

 

[cybrguy]

While I agree 100% with what you quoted in the above post, it was said by @florduh not me.

The rest of your post, not so much. But keep trying...

I do need to add that I find it quite sad and very demoralizing that anyone could look at what is happening and realizing that before this is over we may be looking at a half million or more dead Americans, that that might be OK with ANYONE.

 

[florduh]

Social distancing or others wearing masks should not affect if a properly worn n95 and face shield works. Don't people have to address their own fears at some point?

You're totally missing the part where the vast majority of these poor schmucks don't have access to a N95 mask. And no, I don't think a grocery store worker should have to face their fear of catching a possibly debilitating disease. All for the low price of $10 per hour. But that's the situation we're in. Maybe their government should've taken steps to make that sort of PPE widely available at some point over the past 4 months, instead of hanging them out to play Russian roulette.

The government threw trillions of dollars to make the shut down hurt less. People are not grasping the reality of the economic situation right now as the magic money can't keep on coming. (It's not like there was a big pile of it not getting spent.)

Totally outside the scope of this thread, but the government can and should keep the magic money coming. They literally issue the currency. Inflation is the absolute last thing we need to worry about right now. Whatever horror story you imagine occurring from increased government stimulus is less harmful than the alternative. I know we'll disagree here, but that's ok.

I can tell you the moment I realized the economy is truly fucked for the foreseeable future. It's when the President couldn't fill half a stadium in our Reddest State. His fans are the most likely to believe this virus is no biggie, and even they are modifying their behavior due to fear of COVID. That widespread change in behavior will decimate tourism, restaurants, in-person retail for at least a year. That will ripple out into all of the companies who service those sectors.

It's not the shutdowns that fucked the economy. It's fear of the virus that exists across the political spectrum.

 

[SatanLovestoVape]

You think the United States will take the virus more seriously. Everything is so disorganized while the virus continues to spread. My governor recently mandate for every citizen to wear mask. Yet, most of the counties does not enforce this precaution. Nobody is ever on the same page. People are still doing what they want virus or not. My mom's associate went to Vegas and caught the virus. She later died over making a stupid mistake. Now, we have trump planing on reopening schools in the fall while the virus still ongoing.

 

[Tranquility]

Look at the fear. Look at the lack of support for the fear. Yet, when real fears supported by evidence comes, it is dismissed with a wave.

Look also at the shifting claims of those who want more fear. Each of the fears are addressed and we are left with odd complilcations that happen in all diseases, anecdotal stories of stair climbing and a minimum wage guy who has a bag of Skittles with an M&M in it. (Not Cyanide, unless the mook is over 65.)

Soon, we'll find there are less bags of Skittles to go around and those who would like one won't have a choice--or a Skittle. I wonder if it is going to be me or the mook that we're trying to protect who will end up without a bag?

The best thing is, people will be treated differently by life depending on how they act. I suspect those who cower in their basements will end up worse off than those who carefully live their lives with the understanding Covid is a part of the family of communicable diseases we will deal with until we beat them all or lose to them. There will be real statistical differences between those who go out and those who stay in. Differences in life/death statistics, sequelae from those choices, and long-term economic success. As others have said, choose wisely.

 

[florduh]

I really wish we had this "if you die, you die" c'est la vie attitude after 9/11.

Less than 3,000 Americans died then. We went full on insane over that. Spent 6.4 Trillion dollars (and counting). Killed about a million people, a large chunk of them innocent civilians. Decimated our civil liberties.

But now, we can shrug off 135,000 American deaths as "just the flu. Suck it up". Nevermind the fact that a bad year will see 60,000 dying from influenza. And I sort of doubt the flu's gonna take a bye year this Fall and Winter too. Hospitals, especially in the northern latitudes, should be interesting this flu season. And by interesting I mean a hellscape.

Each of the fears are addressed

I don't think you've done that. I agree, younger people aren't likely to die from COVID-19. That's not what worries me personally. It's being waylaid in bed for a month after getting the disease, with the possibility of permanent damage fucking me in my later years. That type of serious but not deadly case isn't easy to capture in statistics. Especially for a novel disease that didn't exist 9 months ago. What the stats do show is 18-49 year olds are 3 times more likely to end up in the hospital for COVID than influenza.

If fear of the virus is the biggest problem, there were a number of things our government could've done to abate that. They chose to do none of it.

 

[ginolicious]

Even being in bed for a month when young. Some have families. Some have bills. Mortgages. It screws everything up. Life or death. After you live. Do you still have a house? Job? Etc.

 

[florduh]

Even being in bed for a month when young. Some have families. Some have bills. Mortgages. It screws everything up. Life or death. After you live. Do you still have a house? Job? Etc.

Exactly. That's what I mean. And MAYBE there's been plenty 30 year olds who are out of commission for months from influenza all along. I've just never met them or even heard about it. While it seems to happen with some regularity during the current plague. Maybe in a year we'll see that it was overblown. Everyone I know lives in Floriduh, LA, or NYC. Maybe that's why I know so many younger people with serious COVID cases. But l don't think we know enough to say it's overblown now.

 

[macbill]

Scientists focus on how immune system T cells fight coronavirus in absence of antibodies

As scientists question whether the presence, or absence, of antibodies to the novel coronavirus can reliably determine immunity, some are looking to a different component of the immune system, known as T cells, for their role in protecting people in the pandemic.

 

[Tranquility]

You know the argument is getting thin when the straw men come out. "If you die, you die" is certainly not what anyone is saying here. For some reason, there is still no recognition of the Butcher's Bill that goes up the longer we hunker down and that does not even deal with the lesser hurt but not dead that is sure to effect most everyone because of the shutdown. And, the actual POINT of it being "just the flu" is NOT to "suck it up" but to get those who want to act differently now distinguish the risk today with the risk we have every year. As I've said before, IF we find the risk of today's conditions requires extreme measures, we need those same extreme measures EVERY year. For the exact same reasons. For that, I'm in. I'm a scairdy cat on disease risk. I'll do it. I don't think you'll convince the majority and it seems a bit dictatorial to decide others' risks, but I don't think I'd mind changing our historical model on how we treat disease in society.

Now, for the news:
CDC director: Keeping schools closed poses greater health threat to children than reopening
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) Director Robert Redfield said Thursday that the health risks of keeping schools closed are greater than those of opening them, amid a push by President Trump to have students in classrooms this fall.

"I'm of the point of view as a public health leader in this nation, that having the schools actually closed is a greater public health threat to the children than having the schools reopen," Redfield told The Hill's Steve Clemons.

School openings across globe suggest ways to keep coronavirus at bay, despite outbreaks
Early this spring, school gates around the world slammed shut. By early April, an astonishing 1.5 billion young people were staying home as part of broader shutdowns to protect people from the novel coronavirus. The drastic measures worked in many places, dramatically slowing the spread of SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19.

However, as weeks turned into months, pediatricians and educators began to voice concern that school closures were doing more harm than good, especially as evidence mounted that children rarely develop severe symptoms from COVID-19. (An inflammatory condition first recognized in April, which seems to follow infection in some children, appears uncommon and generally treatable, although scientists continue to study the virus’ effect on youngsters.)

Continued closures risk “scarring the life chances of a generation of young people,” according to an open letter published this month and signed by more than 1500 members of the United Kingdom’s Royal College of Paediatrics and Child Health (RCPCH). Virtual education is often a pale shadow of the real thing and left many parents juggling jobs and childcare. Lower-income children who depend on school meals were going hungry. And there were hints that children were suffering increased abuse, now that school staff could no longer spot and report early signs of it. It was time, a growing chorus said, to bring children back to school.

Stanford expert says 80-85 percent of Texas hospital patients 'have nothing to do with COVID-19'
A Stanford medical expert is urging people not to panic over the surge in coronavirus cases occurring in several parts of the U.S., arguing it doesn’t matter how many cases there are but only “who gets the cases.”

Scott Atlas, former chief of neuroradiology at Stanford University Medical Center and a senior fellow at Stanford’s Hoover Institution, said Monday that for people under 70, the death rate from COVID-19 is lower than or equal to the seasonal flu.

The rest of the "new"s seems to involve vaccine work. You can find a lot of reporting on vaccines. But, since the studies are not done yet, I think most all is just drug-company spokesholes trying to keep their employers in the money race of finding the golden ticket of a working vaccine rather than real advances that should be reported.

 

[florduh]

You know the argument is getting thin when the straw men come out.

I don't know... Everything you typed after that still seems to suggest a somewhat c'est la vie attitude towards the virus. Including the articles you posted. But I was more just longing for that same attitude 18 years ago, when we started putting trillions on the Butcher's Bill over 3,000 dead. I'm not arguing anything other than we don't know enough to say younger people are safe from COVID, and we don't know what the longterm effects are.

It's also funny that the solution here is similar to Bush's: it's your patriotic duty to keep shopping. It's the only way to keep our economy going. Well... I think the boat sailed on that this time around. Enough people are modifying their behavior now that the economy's fucked. You can try and convince as many people as possible that their risk is low and they should stop hunkering down. You'll still have enough people going out less, and spending less to cripple this ponzi scheme economy. Most businesses can't even sustain a 10% reduction in traffic for long.

A lot of this could've been avoided with competent governance. Widespread testing, an ample supply of PPE, etc. We want people to stop hunkering down? Get the fuckin virus under control. My guess is people in Germany would be more comfortable "getting back to normal" with 400 new cases yesterday, than in America with 60,000+ new cases.

 

[ginolicious]

I think it’s stupid to say younger people are safe from Covid. We had toddlers dying from complications that it was causing. It’s such a fresh disease. We have only been battling it since March. So what we know is limited. Yeah China has been battling it longer. And knows more about it. But I don’t trust or feel they have been forthcoming or providing us with proper information.

 

[Tranquility]

Again with the straw men? Opening up is a lot more than "shopping". It is fair to think the shutdown beyond the stated flattening the curve ruined an economy that was going pretty well. There is a lot of pain coming that many on the lower rungs have no idea about as yet. I see their bosses and it is going to be BK extravaganza before too long. Yet, manufacturing is up more than anyone had any right to think possible and job increases seem larger than predicted so who knows if we can get a quick recovery? We know for certain it won't get better until we start working to make things better.

Finally, when Covid-19 is getting people to compare it to an intentional attack almost 20 years ago to find enough straw to fill the man, either we're getting ready to talk about the virus origins or we're getting into politics. Since we've done so well so far keeping it real, I decline. I'm not that conspiratorial in the first place and would rather the thread continue than get shut for the latter.

 

[florduh]

Again with the straw men?

Again, no.

Opening up is a lot more than "shopping"

"Shopping" is just shorthand for "getting back to a normal level of economic activity". This should've been obvious.

It is fair to think the shutdown beyond the stated flattening the curve ruined an economy that was going pretty well.

That's certainly one narrative. I think even with no shutdowns, enough people were going to modify their behavior due to the virus that a ruined economy was inevitable.

 

[cybrguy]

If fear of the virus is the biggest problem, there were a number of things our government could've done to abate that. They chose to do none of it.

Fear of the virus, and pressure put on the government to quit fucking around and mandate the necessary testing and tracing are the only chance we have to make it out of this crazy place without more horrific numbers of deaths. Only an asshole wouldn't be afraid of an unstoppable steam roller heading straight for his family and community. We have to do something to try to stop it, or at least force it to veer off. Closing our eyes and pretending it isn't coming is a sure recipe for more death. Blaming the people responsible for the ignorant and wholly unnecessary carnage from in the grave will not be very satisfying and no one is coming back from there. The idea that the US is nearly the only place, and certainly the worst place where this carnage is still taking place is stunning. I could literally never have imagined it, at least before getting the current group of profiteers, criminals and traitors at the top. A government that is totally and only in it for themselves was not on my radar. Not here. But that is where we are.
I would be embarrassed for my nation were it not for the horrific death toll. Maybe I'll be embarrassed later. Right now I am disgusted and infuriated. And we are still on the up-slope of this event. And by the time the supporters of the crazy finally get religion it may well be well beyond the point where we can do anything to stop it.

 

[Tranquility]

"Shopping" is just shorthand for "getting back to a normal level of economic activity". This should've been obvious.

Shopping is important in a consumer economy. But, economic activity includes working too.

That's certainly one narrative. I think even with no shutdowns, enough people were going to modify their behavior due to the virus that a ruined economy was inevitable.

Fair point on the "narrative". How the economy was will be a part of the discussion running up to the election. No doubt, the economy was not perfect before. But, most...(I'll stop here to keep agreement.) As to people modifying behavior, hurrah! Freedom! People making choices based on their assessment of risk is the way it should be. If their freely chosen behaviors tanks the economy, it is theirs to tank. The problems develop when our betters take those choices away.

And we are still on the up-slope of this event.

No, we're not.
Weekly Updates by Select Demographic and Geographic Characteristics
Go to Table 1

 

[cybrguy]

It is well past the time to find anything funny about this. We'll see how you feel with a few dead friends or family. The humor left this subject with my first dead coworker.