Concentrates for Noobs - Q&A

hirmando

Member
Whip, in this case, means just stir it up. Sometimes rosin jams and sauces in particular can be/get viscous. if you have an ultra clean product it may even be slightly hard (esp for us old folk) to see in the jar. Whipping or stirring causes science - as General Disaster discusses - that results in a thicker, easier to dose/manage material. In the context of production, whipping is more about homogenizing and re introducing the terps that separate out of a cured batch over time.
 
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hirmando,
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General Disaster

Of cabbages and Kings.
Well as I said, I'm not a cannabis concentrate expert by any means so there may be some specific issue with some extracts of which I'm unaware of, but in general I would have thought the biggest problem (beyond the aesthetics, and maybe ease of handling) is the separating out of some of the components of the mixture causing an imbalanced profile where too much of some terpenoids and too little of others gives a different experience than it should. In itself that needn't be bad, but it wouldn't be repeatable, just a random 'pot-luck' (pun intended) each time you take a sample to use.
I would expect a live extract or something approaching that to suffer from this more if only due to the more complex profile as more active and semi-active compounds would be included. Also more likely to be unpredictable in how it behaves over time, such as little 'pools' of liquid embedded in 'solid', or some compound crystallising and acting like a sponge to another's liquid component, etc. etc.
Usually best if it can be nicely homogenised and consistent.
But I'd be fascinated to know of something more specific and unusual going on with this if anyone here can enlighten?
 
General Disaster,

ClearBlueLou

unbearably light in the being....
Well as I said, I'm not a cannabis concentrate expert by any means so there may be some specific issue with some extracts of which I'm unaware of, but in general I would have thought the biggest problem (beyond the aesthetics, and maybe ease of handling) is the separating out of some of the components of the mixture causing an imbalanced profile where too much of some terpenoids and too little of others gives a different experience than it should. In itself that needn't be bad, but it wouldn't be repeatable, just a random 'pot-luck' (pun intended) each time you take a sample to use.
I would expect a live extract or something approaching that to suffer from this more if only due to the more complex profile as more active and semi-active compounds would be included. Also more likely to be unpredictable in how it behaves over time, such as little 'pools' of liquid embedded in 'solid', or some compound crystallising and acting like a sponge to another's liquid component, etc. etc.
Usually best if it can be nicely homogenised and consistent.
But I'd be fascinated to know of something more specific and unusual going on with this if anyone here can enlighten?
The best word to describes be what my waxes are doing is ‘sugaring’: no liquid present, if I scrape it, I get a disordered flake. Works fine, so I’ve not messed with it much, though I did attempt to stir one, but it just got lumpy. Guess it’s just part of the aging process (haven’t been keeping them in fridge)
 
ClearBlueLou,
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RustyOldNail

SEARCH for the treasure...
This has happened to me a few times. Since my concentrates have been shipped before I ever receive them, my hunch is “Temperature changes”.

Worth reading:

DOES YOUR SHATTER “SUGAR” UP? HERE’S WHY:​


 

General Disaster

Of cabbages and Kings.
The best word to describes be what my waxes are doing is ‘sugaring’: no liquid present, if I scrape it, I get a disordered flake. Works fine, so I’ve not messed with it much, though I did attempt to stir one, but it just got lumpy. Guess it’s just part of the aging process (haven’t been keeping them in fridge)
Sounds like some of the components are crystallising out. The more purified the concentrate is, the less it's likely to do this, which is why THC distillate doesn't solidify in vape carts.

... no liquid present
There is, but it's probably trapped within the matrix of crystals which can act like a sponge and hold liquid in it.

my hunch is “Temperature changes”.
Quite possibly. Warming up will cause the more solid parts to liquify and change the various solubilities of the parts of the mixture.
When it cools, different elements will solidify out, or crystallise out, also depending on what else is in there. Even the speed of cooling will effect it's physical state.

It has little impact on the stuff, but if liquid is separating from solid in the mix, then better to mix it back together to keep things consistent and homogenous, but who knows, it may even have a better effect for some? Generally in terms of aging, the main effect is likely to be the lighter terpene's will evaporate off slowly, eventually causing it to 'dry' out a bit which also promotes crystallisation. Cool and airtight storage is best, light free too if for a long period of time.
 

ClearBlueLou

unbearably light in the being....
Sounds like some of the components are crystallising out. The more purified the concentrate is, the less it's likely to do this, which is why THC distillate doesn't solidify in vape carts.

Quite possibly. Warming up will cause the more solid parts to liquify and change the various solubilities of the parts of the mixture.
When it cools, different elements will solidify out, or crystallise out, also depending on what else is in there. Even the speed of cooling will effect it's physical state.
They’ve undergone drastic changes in pressure (altitude) but have been kept airtight, dark & cool.

I have some shatter of similar origin that have developed similar general consistencies
 
ClearBlueLou,

General Disaster

Of cabbages and Kings.
Pressure changes equate to temperature changes - the melting points will alter according to the ambient pressure and temperature.
Excluding light will slow down degradation of the terpenoids into other substances, but this is a slow process at normal temperatures and pressures, and is a change in chemistry as well as physical state, and even more complex and effectively impossible to predict without doing experiments on that specific batch of concentrate. Unless you're storing for long periods and/or under extreme conditions, this should have little impact.

In the end though, just the change of physical state will not lose anything, it just may not be the best state to provide a homogenous mixture that will give the most repeatable results. It also may make the handling of the mixture more difficult. But little more than that, it doesn't change the chemical make up of that mixture. It will of course affect aesthetics, and how much that matters is subjective.

Edit:
To be a little more precise, if for example a light terpene (low boiling point) separates out from the solid mixture, it may well promote the faster evaporation as it becomes more exposed to the air providing a better area of surface allowing a faster rate of evaporation. But simply keeping in a small airtight container should prevent that having a noticeable impact. In addition, that effect of increased partial evaporation varies according to the actual substances involved and their respective physical states, and isn't even a guaranteed effect - some crystal structures could conceivably promote evaporation instead of suppressing it.

I have some shatter of similar origin that have developed similar general consistencies
"Similar" can cover a wide variety of sins, particularly as these are often very complex mixtures of compounds with similar behaviours, and a small change of one element may make a major difference depending on what it is, and can equally make only a slight difference. You can expect a 'similarity' of behaviour from similar products, but it doesn't mean they will definitely behave in a similar manner. And the more 'natural' a product (e.g. a pressure extraction vs. an organic solvent based extraction) the more compounds will be present, hundreds of them typically!
And the effects of removing some of the non-active compounds will have a major part in this with the less 'natural' products and their more physically stable aspect.
 
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ClearBlueLou

unbearably light in the being....
"Similar" can cover a wide variety of sins, particularly as these are often very complex mixtures of compounds with similar behaviours, and a small change of one element may make a major difference depending on what it is, and can equally make only a slight difference. You can expect a 'similarity' of behaviour from similar products, but it doesn't mean they will definitely behave in a similar manner. And the more 'natural' a product (e.g. a pressure extraction vs. an organic solvent based extraction) the more compounds will be present, hundreds of them typically!
And the effects of removing some of the non-active compounds will have a major part in this with the less 'natural' products and their more physically stable aspect.
Similarity is definitely in the eye of the observer

Similarity origins re: altitude
Similar consistencies == the shatter has sugared, too

Appreciate everyone’s contributions
 
ClearBlueLou,

General Disaster

Of cabbages and Kings.
Could be we're talking about 'similarity' slightly differently? I'm talking about process while I think you're talking about similarity of the end result?
i.e. how it's changed vs. why it's changed?
Similarity is definitely in the eye of the observer
Absolutely! Or as I would express it, it's relative to the criteria used for comparison.

Similarity origins re: altitude
Or ambient pressure and temperature, as I would put it! 😉
...which effects how it crystallises/re-crystallises.

Similar consistencies == the shatter has sugared, too
The process of crystallisation/re-crystallisation has occurred.

So what I meant by 'similarity' is that a process of change of state (liquid to solid and visa-versa) is likely to occur with mixtures of a similar composition when temp and/or pressure change (within the required range), but the number of variables, including even the time taken for that change to occur (effects crystal formation) is so large that predicting the actual changes between different batches is difficult at best, but that also depends on the complexity of the mixture (hence the comments on whether it's 'natural' or not), but to predict that it will crystallise is much easier.
As for changes from batch to batch, assuming the same strain used, it's down to method and quality of manufacture and how consistent it is.

...or at least as best I can work out from experience.
 

ClearBlueLou

unbearably light in the being....
Could be we're talking about 'similarity' slightly differently? I'm talking about process while I think you're talking about similarity of the end result?
i.e. how it's changed vs. why it's changed?

Absolutely! Or as I would express it, it's relative to the criteria used for comparison.


Or ambient pressure and temperature, as I would put it! 😉
...which effects how it crystallises/re-crystallises.


The process of crystallisation/re-crystallisation has occurred.

So what I meant by 'similarity' is that a process of change of state (liquid to solid and visa-versa) is likely to occur with mixtures of a similar composition when temp and/or pressure change (within the required range), but the number of variables, including even the time taken for that change to occur (effects crystal formation) is so large that predicting the actual changes between different batches is difficult at best, but that also depends on the complexity of the mixture (hence the comments on whether it's 'natural' or not), but to predict that it will crystallise is much easier.
As for changes from batch to batch, assuming the same strain used, it's down to method and quality of manufacture and how consistent it is.

...or at least as best I can work out from experience.
I find all this endlessly fascinating
 
ClearBlueLou,

davidtb823

New Member
I think if you took lbs. of "Trimmed bud" and bulk vaped it, rehydrated it, and bury it in shake until it sets up, you get nuggets.
The flavor is shit, tastes just like ABV. I call BS. homegrown and "Corner store drugs" for me. because retail in NYS is a bunch of fictional stuff that may kill you. Being sold to you by past felony license holders..
 
davidtb823,

vapviking

Old & In the Way
I think if you took lbs. of "Trimmed bud" and bulk vaped it, rehydrated it, and bury it in shake until it sets up, you get nuggets.
The flavor is shit, tastes just like ABV. I call BS. homegrown and "Corner store drugs" for me. because retail in NYS is a bunch of fictional stuff that may kill you. Being sold to you by past felony license holders..
Hey, welcome to FC.

Did you buy some of this without knowing what it is or how it's made?
Are you saying that you know?
If not, then why would you buy, or even try?

I think "corner store drugs" in NYS can be more sus than legal these days. And, btw, the corner store guys and their suppliers are felons, too, just not prosecuted or convicted.

I think you are generally adding to the stigma generated by the War on Drugs in the first place; these "convicted felons" are the ones who paid the price while you were getting high back in the day.

Back to your point, can you provide any more information about the ""nuggets"?
A company name or labelling information?

This kind of thing is one of the reasons I stay with flower, and for concentrate, solventless-process rosin.
 

General Disaster

Of cabbages and Kings.
Hmmm, that isn't the most accurate or scientific of approaches to be frank.
They are merging a bunch of different physical/chemical processes into one system intended to do 'everything' in one go instead of using a stepwise approach of performing each part of the whole - i.e. each separate change having it's own process, stop by step.

For example a part of the process is one of physical filtration, and another is one of adsorption (the use of activated charcoal) which is a different process to filtration, etc.

This appears to me (admittedly from a cursory inspection) to be more a process of convenience rather than one of efficiency and quality. When the various processes being used to concentrate and purify the terpenoids are separated out as individual stages, each can have it's own ideal conditions for a maximum result (whatever your chosen criteria) such as having an ideal temperature to run at, there's no clash of conditions whereby everything is a compromise and lowers the quality of the result and/or loses more as the process is less efficient.

Regards the colouration, this can be very deceptive as an indicator of 'purity'. Quite often the nature of some of the degradation products of the terpenoids and related compounds can be like dyes, and the tiniest amount can make a marked colouration. In other words, removing that discolouration may involving losing maybe 0.00001% (very rough ball-park figure) or less of the total mass of the concentrate.

This is where the activated charcoal will do it's thang, with the relatively tiny amount of the dye adsorping to the surface of the fine granules of charcoal so after filtering it leaves a fairly clear solution which evaporates to leave a straw coloured (or similar) shatter/wax/crumble/what-have-you.
But no amount of filtering alone is going to manage this effectively.
Colouration also comes from the elements initially extracted from the plant, not all of which are active, and in addition, as described above, the various degradation products a complex mixture of volatile and unstable alkaloids are an added part to the picture.

But the bottom line of what I'm failing to describe very well, is the cruder the process, the less efficient it will be, with the balance of quality and quantity being defined by the process(es) used, but overall diminished in the output.
For the very best control over what you end up with, doing it in stages in the most efficient order will give the best quality and quantity while allowing the most control over the nature of the concentrate being produced.

I don't like the appearance of pseudo-science in that linked page and the inaccurate descriptions used are either unjustifiably patronising or deliberately misleading (in my view at least). I'm not saying CRC definitely doesn't have a place under specific circumstance (where higher losses or less pure product are acceptable) but the misrepresentation makes me suspicious enough to question it carefully before using it, should I be looking for a method.
 
General Disaster,
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