Advanced E-cig users and oil/wax, how-to "one-hitter-quitter"

[Haywood]

[Redirected from another thread]

Hey haywood ... what is your preferred method for non pure gold extracts. What dripless atty do you use? Just curious because while i've had trouble with it, the sapphire carts changed the pure gold / travel game for me and I found it via your suggestions so i'm just curious.

@Alevin: I've been experimenting with a number of different non-rebuildable atty's that are suitable for use on a thin (16mm) eGo style battery. (Not that they won't work on a monster). My needs were something that would work just fine at 10 Watts or less, and was suitable for all manner of dispensary concentrates (wax, shatter, budder, whatever), but NOT diluted stuff in a clearo or syringe and NOT stuff that fails the foil-burn-test.

My current favorite is the Joyetech 510 Atomizer (2.2Ω), BUT... they require some surgery before they'll work at all; more on that below. So I've tried maybe a dozen different "plain, ol' atty's" over the past year, and most of them are pretty good. In the beginning I tried some with a bridge or plate above the coil, but they all sucked and wasted lots of good stuff; great for e-juice, but not for us. For our needs, only the "bridgeless" dripping atty's did the trick. They all were of similar design, with a ceramic cup, surrounded by nickel mesh, holding a kanthal wrapped silica wick. Some had a short barrel, some had a longer barrel.

Yeah, I know, this is getting too long. Time for some pictures:

Before, top view, focused far:

Before, top view, focused near:

Before, side view:

After, with bridge removed:

These are pictures of the inside of a Joyetech 510 Atomizer (2.2Ω), looking down the barrel from the top (where the drip tip goes), before and after I removed the bridge. The first three give you an idea how "tall" the bridge is. With the bridge in, the atty sucks big time (=worthless) with dispensary concentrates. Without the bridge, it works better than any other atty I've tried. How do you remove the bridge? It's really easy. Just grab the bridge on the sides (right and left in the before pictures) with a needle nosed pliers and pull it straight up and out. I've operated on ten patients and they all went on to live happy lives with zero problems.

It works best for me at 7.5W to 9W (4.0V to 4.5V), depending on what type of concentrate is loaded, and whether it's a fresh load, or a gooey mess totally surrounding the coil. I have two in constant use for a couple of months with no burn outs. I torch (the outer shell) briefly with a mini blowtorch every few days or so to melt the condensed oils on the inside of the shell back down to the bottom. They just work. With every kind of dispensary concentrates. They work on tiny eGo 350mAh batteries and they work on Vision Spinner VV eGo style batteries and they work on my itaste VV V3 battery and they just work on anything.

They can be had, on occasion, for about $2 each. (Last time I bought 10 of them @ $1.75 each). I haven't shopped for them in a while, so I don't know their going rate, but I do know that $2 each was a bargain. Here's a link to where I got them, though they're currently out of stock.

 

[ollent]

So it's a year after the first post, and reading through this thread is so jargon-laden that I'm having trouble figuring out what I need to do to upgrade from my ego/gentleman's vape cart setup to one of these. Is there an updated parts list for this? Or maybe a more clear step-by-step "for dummies" style manual on the subject? I get that there's something about twisting wire....

 

[Puffers]

First you NEED to understand ohm' law and how that relates to the battery you are using, so that you can safely wrap and test your coils without venting a battery or hurting yourself.

Other then that you need:
A mechanical mod. I use a nemesis clone.
Battery with a high discharge rating I perfer my Sony VTC4 that has a 30amp continuous discharge rating.
A dripping atomizer like the igo-w, patriot, nimbus, etc
Your choice of wick and wire, I am using kanthal ribbon wire and ekowool wicking at the moment. Others are using porous ceramic, ceramic wicking like the FC-2000, silica, steel mesh, etc

That's about it, lots of options, lots of experimenting. Just please be safe and learn basic battery safety and familiarize yourself with ohms law and how they relate to each other.

 

[ollent]

First you NEED to understand ohm' law and how that relates to the battery you are using, so that you can safely wrap and test your coils without venting a battery or hurting yourself.

Ok, so can I get a link for that then?

Other then that you need:
A mechanical mod. I use a nemesis clone.

What's a mod? A case? Something else?

Battery with a high discharge rating I perfer my Sony VTC4 that has a 30amp continuous discharge rating.

Why do you prefer that? What do I look up on google for a "high discharge rating?" What's high?

A dripping atomizer like the igo-w, patriot, nimbus, etc

Which one? Why?

Your choice of wick and wire, I am using kanthal ribbon wire and ekowool wicking at the moment. Others are using porous ceramic, ceramic wicking like the FC-2000, silica, steel mesh, etc

And do what? You mentioned "wrapping and testing coils" above -- this is related, right? How?

That's about it, lots of options, lots of experimenting. Just please be safe and learn basic battery safety and familiarize yourself with ohms law and how they relate to each other.

Link?

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

Ok, so can I get a link for that then?


What's a mod? A case? Something else?


Why do you prefer that? What do I look up on google for a "high discharge rating?" What's high?


Which one? Why?


And do what? You mentioned "wrapping and testing coils" above -- this is related, right? How?


Link?

All the questions you're asking are for advanced ecig users, all the answers relate to advanced ecig stuff.

A "mod" is also known as a mechanical mod, it uses points of contact to complete a circuit and deliver battery power. This literally means that there are no electronics in the mod, it's a battery tube with a button that you press that physically pushes the battery up to make contact. You need to know your ohms laws and how they relate because mechs don't have any safety features at all. If you mess up and put the battery under a lot of stress, it can vent/damage the mod/damage you.

Which mech is up to you, they're all different in little ways (shape, size, batteries, etc) but they do the same thing of completing the circuit.

Same thing for RDA's, preference. Do you want something that only lets you build one coil, or do you want something that has 4 negative posts for quad coils?

...and you use wicking material to wick your juice (in this case oil) towards the coil so that it vaporizes. Wrapping and testing coils... yes, you start with kanthal wire (or whatever wire you prefer) and you literally wrap the coil. Pretty much everyone wraps around something like a small drill bit or a nail or something, depending on the size of the coil they want (nano coil vs macro coil etc). Then you have to test it to see what ohms it's putting out, this is why you want to know your ohms laws and such to keep you out of trouble. Once you've got the coil situated and tested and everything's gravy, you wick it.

THEN you can use it.

 

[2clicker]

@those who know

is there a chart that shows what cell ratings are safe with dif ohm ratings?

ill learn it myself but a chart would be helpful for quick ref.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

@those who know

is there a chart that shows what cell ratings are safe with dif ohm ratings?

ill learn it myself but a chart would be helpful for quick ref.

Closest I found offhand was this, doesn't mention cell ratings though :/

 

[Shiggity]

 

[DabComa]

Well going strong again with a garunteed pair of Sony vtc4 18650s, threw out the other China battery figured it's another bomb just waiting to go off. I hope my experience doesn't deter others from using 18650s but rather shows the importance of using proper batteries from trusted sources. After buying the Sony's and comparing the sizes of them to my old China battery, the china battery was larger in height and diameter then the Sony, further leading me to believe the knock offs are just that.

Anyways, the ceramic dishes in the attys that I have don't accept 28 and larger diameter wire, your attys may be coming from different sources then in my market area so I guess individual results will vary.

Good info everyone, awesome chart, keep the info coming and stay safe out there!

 

[fernand]

Great charts! Thanks.

@Haywood great photos and experience. I've never tried the drippin' bridgeless atomizers I use for e-cig vaping. There are many improved designs in the atty arena, don't know which ones might be ideal. Like the type 306 that doesn't even have a tube!

http://www.avidvaper.com/products/LR306-Low-Resistance-Atomizer-1.5-ohm-(Cisco-Spec).html

The 306 tubeless come bridgeless too. Lots of hunting possible, now that we know someone is actually cookin' good with a debridged Joye 510 atty.

Here a 1.8 ohm 306 debridged (you cannot yank, must clip). MUCH better to buy it bridgeless. The advantage is that it comes tubeless, open, you buy a 306 "drip tip" for it. I think the trough on the Joye looks better, though having immediate access to the coil on a 306 type is nice.

@Haywood is that a hole under your coil? How big? On mine it's a shadow, the actual airhole is tiny. So what happens when you dab, does the oil go in the SS mesh on the sides? I like some of the cheap ceramic cup ones, the smaller the cup the better, because the excess stays in the cup.

Sorry, one more idea. The CE4, CE5 etc clearomizers have replaceable "heads" in different ratings, at under $2 each. A 2.8 ohm, if you cut off the side wicks, and remove the cap, becomes a tiny metal cup with a tiny glass fiber flap funnel inside. For those of us who don't have many grams on hand to waste, these fill up with concentrate economically and vaporize it nicely. Melt a 0.050 g dab of wax right onto the coil, or onto the funnel flaps, then reassemble stealthily in the clearomizer or any tank body on hand.

What exactly happens when you push the button, who knows? It's like nano-scale shit, we don't know. It heats up and maybe it wicks and maybe it defies gravity, in any case something a lot like vapor emerges and can penetrate the mind purdy good.

FWIW a lot of the best (and expensive) e-cig coils WILL burn up even at low wattage unless always saturated with liquid. They are designed for a different vape, and a "dry-burning" them is not always OK.

Another issue is glass. Pieces of the Silica wicks (used on all std e-cig atomizers) come loose when the atty is operated upon, and they are an inhalation hazard. I wouldn't ever directly lung-inhale off any e-cig atomizer - I keep my tongue against the mouthpiece: glass fiber in mouth is better than in lungs.

 

[Haywood]

Warning: This message is really long, and might ramble a little...

@Haywood great photos and experience. I've never tried the drippin' bridgeless atomizers I use for e-cig vaping. There are many improved designs in the atty arena, don't know which ones might be ideal. Like the type 306 that doesn't even have a tube! The 306 tubeless come bridgeless too. Lots of hunting possible, now that we know someone is actually cookin' good with a debridged Joye 510 atty. [My message above shows a nice closeup picture] ... a 1.8 ohm 306 debridged (you cannot yank, must clip). MUCH better to buy it bridgeless. The advantage is that it comes tubeless, open, you buy a 306 "drip tip" for it. I think the trough on the Joye looks better, though having immediate access to the coil on a 306 type is nice.

I prefer a short barrel 510 atty, because having a barrel allows me to load more than just the small dab that can fit entirely in the ceramic cup. This works better with non-gooey concentrates, such as wax, but even with tar like stuff, I can put a pretty big glob in there. I don't want to have to keep reloading every two or three hits, even when I'm home. Might as well use a nail.

I wish I had found an atty that was bridgeless that worked as well as the Joye 510's, but I haven't, and I've tried a dozen or so. The Joye bridge is trivially easy to remove, unlike some (including the 306 avid you mention; AvidVaper has a GREAT selection of stuff, btw, I had forgotten about them so thanks for the link). The Joye bridge does have a solid piece of metal inside the bridge mesh, which you can't see in my picures. It's not welded to the base though, it just lives inside the mesh, and hence comes out easily right along with the mesh, no side cutters required. I've also tried a bunch of different resistances, and for use on a VV (or VW) eGo size battery, 2Ω to 2.5Ω has always worked out best for me. I tried a bunch of 1.5Ω and 1.8Ω atty's, but they tended to burn the concentrate, they burn out more quickly, and they take their toll on battery life. One of the reasons I think that the lower resistance atty's don't work as well for our use is that they invariably have much fewer winds around the wick. Take a look at your picture and mine; see that my wick has ten wraps and goes mostly from one end of the wick to the other, while yours only has five wraps and is mostly in the center of the wick? This seems to make a significant difference in how well the atty works with our concentrates. Normal e-juice, even 100% VG, is much thinner and wicks more readily. Since the Joye's work so well, and they don't burn out, I don't plan on messing with their coil or rebuilding them, and access to the coil in the Avid 306 you show doesn't matter to me. I do have a couple of Mini ProTank III's in the mail, along with some safe ceramic wick, which I plan on playing with for use with oils that are no thicker than Pure Gold (and probably much less thick)...

While I am happy (as you can tell) to discuss the minutia of getting the best vape, after fooling around with different atty's and batteries to deal with concentrates for a little over a year now, the conclusion that I've come to is that there is no single best method, since the most suitable method invariably depends on what you're vaping, and what your circumstance happens to be. There's a lively discussion going on now about using Rebuildable Dripping Atomizers (RDA) for concentrates; seems a bit overkill for me, but I'm still learning, so who knows.

Some examples:

When I travel anywhere by air, I only bring an eGo style battery with a GotVapes Sapphire "Buddy Tech" Clearo on it, pre-filled half way with a single undiluted Pure Gold ampule. I also bring an identical rig loaded with e-juice and a couple of small bottles of e-liquid. I do this because I am trying to quit smoking cigarettes, and because the nic part is a perfect cover for the one clearo that has Pure Gold. No little silicon canisters with gooey stuff or packets of shatter or nice granular wax, all of which are pretty stupid to carry when you and your bags are subject to search. I fly lots of places for my work. The eGo/Sapphire/PureGold rig just works. It doesn't leak, even when it's in my pocket in the plane. It lasts at least a week with 0.5 gram ampule load, the battery lasts days (and recharges), no one can smell anything even remotely resembling herb, I can grab a quick puff or two anywhere I am, and Bob's my uncle. I carry it with me (essentially) 100% of the time, even when I'm home, for its uncanny ability to provide me a hit whenever and wherever.

Trouble is, I get tired of only doing Pure Gold. I love it and everything, but not 100% of the time. So I basically use that setup only when I fly somewhere or when I need 100% stealth and the ability to vape anywhere and anytime.

When I'm at home, or at the home of a friend, I generally stick to concentrates, and I've found the best way for me to do them is in a bridgeless atty. Concentrates all have their own distinct taste and odor and effect, which is the whole idea, and a bridgeless atty seems to give me the best results. In an environment where I can sit with my titanium tools, and a little torch (or lighter if I'm not home), and scoop up this and that to enjoy and share, nothing beats it. The whole act of preparing and sharing is a large part of the joy. Sometimes it's easy, like dropping a piece of crumbly wax directly into the atty, and sometimes it's hard, like scooping up a glob of tar on the end of a titanium tool and heating it so it drips right onto the coil. Sometimes the "load" needs minding, requiring a warm tool to move it from the sides of the atty down to the coil, or a quick blast from the torch/lighter to warm up the atty sleeve. So I (or we) have fun, and play, and experiment, and get stoned.

When I'm working in town or just going out somewhere, I carry the Pure Gold rig mentioned above, as well as a pre-loaded atty and maybe one of those little silicon containers with some extra concentrate. Some concentrates are tar like, and a real pain to deal with anywhere but at home, but the waxes and shatter are OK to deal with when I'm out and about. If the smell draws too much attention (say, at work), I can either take a break and go outside, or rely on the Pure Gold rig.

@Haywood is that a hole under your coil? How big? On mine it's a shadow, the actual airhole is tiny. So what happens when you dab, does the oil go in the SS mesh on the sides? I like some of the cheap ceramic cup ones, the smaller the cup the better, because the excess stays in the cup.

I'm not sure, but I think it's a big air hole down there. The oil does clog the air intake path once the atty has cooled down, though no oil has ever leaked out the air holes in the bottom of the atty. I just fire the battery one second before I start taking a hit, the coil melts the "trapped" oil, and the air path clears right up. I'll dig out the microscope again and see if I can get a better look around down there. Since none of my atty's have died yet, I haven't had a chance to dissect one. The concentrate starts out on top of the coil (and then some). After a few hits, it migrates to a ring about where the remaining nickel mesh lives (around the ceramic cup), but it doesn't seem to soak into the mesh, it seems to just sit on top, and melt into the coil/wick/ceramic as the atty heats up. It also condenses on the insides of the sleeve a little (and on the insides of the drip tip). It's pretty easy to manage though. When I dissect the first one that fails, I'll check out how much oil is trapped/wasted in the surround mesh.

Sorry, one more idea. The CE4, CE5 etc clearomizers have replaceable "heads" in different ratings, at under $2 each. A 2.8 ohm, if you cut off the side wicks, and remove the cap, becomes a tiny metal cup with a tiny glass fiber flap funnel inside. For those of us who don't have many grams on hand to waste, these fill up with concentrate economically and vaporize it nicely. Melt a 0.050 g dab of wax right onto the coil, or onto the funnel flaps, then reassemble stealthily in the clearomizer or any tank body on hand.

Not sure what the advantage of turning a clearo into an atty with a visible vape chamber is going to be, but it sounds like fun. There's a gizmo already made just for this, and I think there's a thread here somewhere mentioning it. It has a replaceable coil assembly that just has the ceramic cup and a coil, and you surround it with a glass tube with a bulging glass surround in the middle, and you put a 510 drip tip in the top of the glass. You put a dab in the ceramic bowl, put the glass sleeve back on, put the drip tip in the end of the glass tube, and voila. Here's a picture I grabbed from Google:

And finally, thank you for "liking" my last message. It was my 1000th like. I've been awarded a trophy for this. I was really hoping for a cookie.

 

[matthend]

So I cannot build one of these to go on a vvv/vw apv? It has to go on a mech mod, correct?

 

[2clicker]

So I cannot build one of these to go on a vvv/vw apv? It has to go on a mech mod, correct?

incorrect. you can build an RDA for variable voltage use. doesnt matter what device you use as long as the ratings jive and you can attach the atty to the device.

im not sure if a VV device is needed for this application, but i could be wrong. you can also run a "kick" in a mechanical mod to get VV capabilities. i just know i do not see a use for VV for myself.

 

[Haywood]

I have found a VV (or VW) device to be of great use in this application. fwiw.

 

[Shiggity]

I have found a VV (or VW) device to be of great use in this application. fwiw.

Yes me too, I like to avoid burning my concentrate so being able to dial in my wattage is a very nice feature.

 

[fernand]

@Haywood that's very very useful experience. Thanks! My main question would be about your Gold rig. I think the Sapphire V4 is exactly what O-Pen-Vape uses for their pre-filled carts, so I KNOW it works, even with quite thick liquid. They add some Polyethylene Glycol to thin it a hair. We have these in CA, strikes me as a close dupe of your Liquid Gold rig. They do smell peculiarly herbal. Does the Liquid Gold really give no hint as to its origins? One could probably use Propylene Glycol or one of several non-toxic (and iffy-tasting) glycols to thin a wax.

So are exactly these what you use? Or are they these? Do these O-Pen-Vape prefilled ones look like yours? a V4 or V5?

Now on the 510 Joyes. Yes, of course if you found these work so well, no need to mess around. So what you do is basically just dump wax in the tube, not worry about where exactly it goes, and let it simmer when you hit it? That sounds lovely! so like how much would you put in at first, and how much do you add at a time? 0.1 g? More?

I can tell you the ceramic cup & globe setup is quite so-so. The cup doesn't really get hot enough, and the wire itself is too hot. I've seen people just dump a lot of wax into the cup, but I doubt it gives very even temp.

I've been trying and rejecting several types. For one thing they waste material.

What I like about that little resistance head is that it's so small. If the coil fails and I have to discard it it's not taking a lot down with the ship. I can dab on like 0.010-0.020 g. Now to stealth it. Probably just assemble in the original clearomizer. If crossing security, maybe put some flavored water in the clearo tank and throw it in with other e-cig gear. Water solution won't dissolve the wax, just shake it out at destination?

You are so right about the longer coil on higher res atties being better. With a VV battery.

 

[DabComa]

Does anyone know enough about the chargers and 18650s to tell me if its bad to be using a charger rated at 1.2v 800 Mah / 3.0v 700 mah, I assume the latter being the charge rate with two batteries, since there is no mode change on the charger. Is under charging slower but safer? Or is it damaging my precious vtc 2100 Mah's. I can't seem to find a straight answer and their are tons of different opinions out there? Should I just be on the safe side and get a good name charger? If so can I get some links to suggested sites? Thanks for the help guys, I'd rather not see my battery Roman candle off again, so the info is definitely appreciated.

 

[Haywood]

Umm, neither 1.2V or 3.0V are the proper charge voltages for an 18650. I don't know what kind or model of charger you're using, but if your message info is correct, you shouldn't use that charger with those batteries. Maybe if you tell us what charger you have, we can give you a more specific answer.

Also, this has absolutely nothing to do with Concentrates or oil/wax/onehitters, so you should probably find a suitable section (battery powered vapes?) and a suitable thread therein to ask for help...

 

[fernand]

And a charger can't be "rated" at 1.2v 800 Mah, because mAh is a battery rating, how much current it can put out for how long, 800 milliamps for one hour. So something is wrong from the gitgo here. A charger will generally list the nominal voltage it charges to, and how much current it feeds when charging. The usual 18650 battery is rated 3.7 volts but will be charged to 4.2v at say 1 amp max, so that's what the typical charger will say: 3.7 v, 1000 mA. There are chargers with oddball voltages, there are cheapo chargers that skimp on everything, and there are broken chargers. That's probably how you set off that 18650. I would look into chargers over $50. Maybe check and read up in the flashlight world, they have a lot of experience, and bite the bullet.

 

[Quetzalcoatl]

And a charger can't be "rated" at 1.2v 800 Mah, because mAh is a battery rating, how much current it can put out for how long, 800 milliamps for one hour. So something is wrong from the gitgo here. A charger will generally list the nominal voltage it charges to, and how much current it feeds when charging. The usual 18650 battery is rated 3.7 volts but will be charged to 4.2v at say 1 amp max, so that's what the typical charger will say: 3.7 v, 1000 mA. There are chargers with oddball voltages, there are cheapo chargers that skimp on everything, and there are broken chargers. That's probably how you set off that 18650. I would look into chargers over $50. Maybe check and read up in the flashlight world, they have a lot of experience, and bite the bullet.

The Tenergy charger I got from ThermoVape does 18650's and 14500's, the specifications on the back are:

Input: DC12v 1000mA
Output: 4.2v 1000mA x2

I don't think he meant "rated" the way we think "rated"

@DabComa if your battery did some funny stuff, you should probably not use it. Nitecore is a popular brand of chargers for both our uses and flashlight uses. Make sure to read up on the models.

 

[arrr]

@DabComa this is what I use and it works great.http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B005UAI372/ref=mp_s_a_1_2?qid=1396096245&sr=8-2&pi=SY200_QL40

 

[ColoVaper]

Just got my Xtar VP2 yesterday. It is also a really nice charger for around 50. It only has two bays but will charge many different batteries and also can charge things like your phone from your batteries via a USB port on it. Consolidated all my chargers into one with it.

 

[2clicker]

i would recommend the EFEST chargers for any cell really. they come in 2 and 4 bay. im in the market for one myself to use with my new sony 18650s ill be getting for my sub - 1.8ohm builds.

 

[2clicker]

@2clicker Yes, the xc-116 can be torched or dry burned back to bright white and clean.

just ordered some! excited to try it out. the SS mesh im using still sorta tastes like metal even after about a .5g of shatter through it.

oh and where is the best place to order top caps for IGO-W/L? im wanting brushed stainless to match my mods. most places i look are out of stock.

sorry for the double post mods!

 

[walrus]

just ordered some! excited to try it out. the SS mesh im using still sorta tastes like metal even after about a .5g of shatter through it.

oh and where is the best place to order top caps for IGO-W/L? im wanting brushed stainless to match my mods. most places i look are out of stock.

sorry for the double post mods!

I think you'll be happier with the taste off of the xc116, let us know what you think. As far as top caps, kidneypuncher and vapordna usually have a decent selection of replacement top caps available.