Adhesives, Insulation and Vape Safety
- Thread starter momofthegoons
- Start date
BigDaddyVapor
@BigDogJunction
OK... sorry to butt in again. But I do need to apologize to Dave (no duress or pressure. honest apology).
In regards to MSDS/OSHA and what Dave has provided, its accurate and honest. I do not believe he is trying to deceive users, as a little web work, would have answered my argument in minutes. Don't have anything to blame it on, other than my oversight.
So again, I want to be clear. Dave has provided all the possible AND correct forms in regards to OSHA/MSDS. As others have stated, the decision is in our hands. I am not adverse to admitting when I am wrong and speaking up for those slighted by my error.
In regards to MSDS/OSHA and what Dave has provided, its accurate and honest. I do not believe he is trying to deceive users, as a little web work, would have answered my argument in minutes. Don't have anything to blame it on, other than my oversight.
So again, I want to be clear. Dave has provided all the possible AND correct forms in regards to OSHA/MSDS. As others have stated, the decision is in our hands. I am not adverse to admitting when I am wrong and speaking up for those slighted by my error.
You are welcome stickstones. Your HI still has the core in 2 pieces. The core is now shaped like a cup. The parts are the same, just connected together.
The bottom of the cup does not sit on the bottom of the bore hole so the air path is only down to the solder joint on the outside wire. The solder is the same material that is coating the copper wires to the resistor. There is a stainless steel spacer that keeps the heat of the core from transferring heat down to the open wood grain at the bottom of the bore hole. This keeps heat from transferring down to the lower section. I am wearing the spacer on my little finger in the photo of my core. I really was showing the entire core in the photo. Each HI contains a stainless steel ring inside just under the core. The bottom of the cup is the bottom of the air path. Although, the air doesn't actually even reach the bottom of the cup because the air intake holes are on the side of the center tube. The air goes down the outside of the center tube and then right back up the inside of the center tube. The air path is as short as physically possible.
t-dub
Vapor Sloth
I can really imagine a synthetic "log" vape that would suit my medical needs as well . . .Inquiring minds, other than mine, would like to know, I think it is entirely possible
BigDaddyVapor
@BigDogJunction
If anyone is also interested. You can read the pertinent info in regards to the subsection, referenced.
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=standards&p_id=10099
Its a bunch of boring crap, but it actually is/was a good move, IMO... as it deals with the specific problem of producing MSDS for companies no longer in business.
http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=standards&p_id=10099
Its a bunch of boring crap, but it actually is/was a good move, IMO... as it deals with the specific problem of producing MSDS for companies no longer in business.
Slightly Medicated
(SliM) Iron Lungs
Maybe you should re-name this post. It might be better considering it started as one thing and kind of morphed in to an overarching discussion about material safety. What if you took all the relevant posts from this thread and moved them to a new conversation/thread? That could clean up the discussion and maybe provided the basis/foundation for a good discussion going further?
stickstones
Vapor concierge
If I do anything along those lines it will be to rename the thread and maybe take out some posts. I wouldn't delete anything without counsel from vtac, however, since I have done that before and he correctly showed me the error of my ways.
that being said, my apologies for starting a derail. We should keep the thread management behind the scenes.
t-dub
Vapor Sloth
No way did you derail anything. My thought right now is: How can we use most of this experience/knowledge to advance our cause, or MY cause, which is medical . . .
stickstones
Vapor concierge
you know, tdub, there was a time when i thought someone should come up with a really cheap log style vape. I mean, most of the cost is in the craftsmanship. I'm sure a mass produced log style vape could be made and sold for diddly-squat, just not a pretty one made of wood.
The same could apply to your needs. How hard could it be for one of these talented people on here to make a log vape out of a different, more acceptable, material for you? Even if the material cost was high, it would be worth it for someone with your needs.
The same could apply to your needs. How hard could it be for one of these talented people on here to make a log vape out of a different, more acceptable, material for you? Even if the material cost was high, it would be worth it for someone with your needs.
t-dub
Vapor Sloth
Yes absolutely.
So my question is why can't we combine a thermovape, with a log vape, and come up with something that is clean, efficient, medical, and wonderful?post: 245586 said:
stickstones
Vapor concierge
I'm happy with wood. I am lucky not to have the challenges you have described here.
t-dub
Vapor Sloth
AND I would not wish the challenges I have had on my WORST enemy, not in a million years, it has been that bad. All I want to say is this: We NEED each other, PERIOD.
ilovebOObs
can i stick my male joint in there?
BigDaddyVapor
@BigDogJunction
Well, personally... after ALL this derailment and I've had my share of being an asshole in it. But, one thing stands out to me, as the dust settles. Dave has made the offer, repeatedly to make a Vegan UD (actually built to request), for the people that want it. That can't be denied. Not that it means anything to some of you, I'm sure. But that, plus my own slow discovery in/out of this thread. I'm going to try and take him up on a Vegan UD... I'll just have to order incognito. 
If I can recover enough of this crop (which is a day-to-day roller coaster ride, EXCEPT for Strawberry Cough, which appears to be some super strong, resilient monster strain)... maybe I'll have enough to order one. Of course, if I don't recover enough of this crop... I'm not going to have any Internet, so I guess you'll never know.
If I can recover enough of this crop (which is a day-to-day roller coaster ride, EXCEPT for Strawberry Cough, which appears to be some super strong, resilient monster strain)... maybe I'll have enough to order one. Of course, if I don't recover enough of this crop... I'm not going to have any Internet, so I guess you'll never know.
stickstones
Vapor concierge
Thats what I was thinking
Hagbard Celine
Well-Known Member
Since there has been a lot of talk about ceramic lately, I wanted to bring up another question I have had in my mind since even before this thread started.
First, let me say I dont mean to point any fingers or stir up the pot, but I have what I consider some legitimate material questions.
Several months back when I was first thinking about buying another log vape, I read through the entirety of the UD, HI and CRZ threads trying to make up my mind about what to buy. At the time I noticed some pictures and posts in the CRZ thread where a person or two chimed in claiming they were worried about a solid ceramic disc that was insulating the CRZ vape in some way. I dont know if I recall exactly where, but I think the ceramic disc is/was on top of the core near the heat port. There wasn't a tremendous amount of discussion about it, and not many people appeared to be all that worried. But for me, I was looking for any little tidbit of info in try to help me decide between these vapes. So I decided that I would just pass on the CRZ for the time.
Fast-forward to now. We've got the UD vape here which uses sort sort of ceramic fabric as an insulator, and it seems to be below the closed core, so presumably not even in the vapor path. There are several people concerned about it (I have no qualms with their concerns). But I'm pretty sure some of those same people are users of the CRZ, which has the solid ceramic disc (in the vapor path? or near the heat port? again, I'm not sure)
So I have to ask, what makes some of you more concerned about one vs the other?
I'm asking these questions in all sincerity. If I passed on the CRZ and my concerns are not warranted, I'd like to know. But can we get a little clarification on this?
First, let me say I dont mean to point any fingers or stir up the pot, but I have what I consider some legitimate material questions.
Several months back when I was first thinking about buying another log vape, I read through the entirety of the UD, HI and CRZ threads trying to make up my mind about what to buy. At the time I noticed some pictures and posts in the CRZ thread where a person or two chimed in claiming they were worried about a solid ceramic disc that was insulating the CRZ vape in some way. I dont know if I recall exactly where, but I think the ceramic disc is/was on top of the core near the heat port. There wasn't a tremendous amount of discussion about it, and not many people appeared to be all that worried. But for me, I was looking for any little tidbit of info in try to help me decide between these vapes. So I decided that I would just pass on the CRZ for the time.
Fast-forward to now. We've got the UD vape here which uses sort sort of ceramic fabric as an insulator, and it seems to be below the closed core, so presumably not even in the vapor path. There are several people concerned about it (I have no qualms with their concerns). But I'm pretty sure some of those same people are users of the CRZ, which has the solid ceramic disc (in the vapor path? or near the heat port? again, I'm not sure)
So I have to ask, what makes some of you more concerned about one vs the other?
I'm asking these questions in all sincerity. If I passed on the CRZ and my concerns are not warranted, I'd like to know. But can we get a little clarification on this?
stickstones
Vapor concierge
I actually remember this...but I don't remember if it got resolved.
stickstones
Vapor concierge
I wonder which vape designs are prone to rattling after a while. I know my PD did, and there is a UD for sale that does. Would this movement of the core be a problem for any of these designs in terms of airpath purity?
Wow, I've had a busy day in the shop and haven't had a chance to really check back in on this thread until recently and I have to say, well, wow it's really moved on and in a great way. Seems like we've rounded a bend and are really on track to a good and productive conversation. Well done everyone, I'm impressed!
@ Alan - thanks for the cross section picture of the HI it definitely does help to clear up any design questions, at least for me, I didn't realize the socket was threaded in so high up there. Does the core slide down all the way to the bottom of the top hole? If so then it shows really well how small the bottom chamber is that we were discussing earlier and I think does a lot to clear up any confusion or concern, at least for me so thanks again. I have a design/manufacturing question for you if you don't mind? What size thread is the hole tapped for and do you find it holds well in the wood? Have you had any woods that it doesn't hold well in?
@ BVD - apology accepted, thank you for the gesture. Also thanks for the link and description about the generic MSDS sheets being acceptable for products with the same ingredients. That's what I was trying to get across but was having a hard time putting it in the right words to explain it and hadn't had time to find the appropriate text you linked to. Also, no problem and no hard feelings if you ever want to work with me on getting you a custom vegan UD built I'd be happy to work with you on one.. no need to order incognito.
@ stickstones - I don't know about any other manufacturers but I've worked on making a Log out of non-wood materials including synthetics and while I think it's doable there are some design challenges. For me I think the biggest challenge is either finding a material that has the properties needed to make a good vape body and that can also withstand being in contact with the high temperature metal core. Alternatively you can try to design a core that isn't as hot on the outside so it doesn't tear up the body material, doing so might well be possible by design or by insulation but is also a challenge. While not perfect by any means, in the big picture of things wood is a very impressive, beautiful and resilient material at least in my mind. That doesn't mean a synthetic design won't ever happen or that I won't be working on one just that there are certain challenges to be overcome.
@ Hagbard Celine - glad to hear you're enjoying your UD dude. I'm not able to speak from firsthand experience but from my limited understanding the ceramic insulator that is used in the CRZ (and gives it its name) is a piece of very inert, very hard high-fired ceramic.. not sure how they're formed but my guess is they'd be cut from a larger plate with a water-jet or possible laser (my money would be on water-jet) and I sure they're as safe and solid as a, well, ROCK. Again, I can't speak for Rick and I don't have first hand knowledge but I'd be willing to bet that it's 100% completely good and safe.
@ Alan - a hemp stalk or corncob HI would be awesome, that would be fun to see. I wonder if you stuck a core in a cob of dried corn with the kernel still on and fired it up if it would eventually pop the corn lol.. that would be a fun experiment. Did you post pictures of your bamboo HI? That sounds pretty neat as well.
@ stickstones - I can't comment on the other vapes for rattle problems but the first generation 24/7 UD cores (like the one MoTG ended up with) are prone to loosening and developing a rattle due to the way I screwed the cores to the body. In some of those models the wood shrinks away from the core a bit and allows it to rattle back and forth on the screws, not free but not tightly held anymore. I've been retrofitting those pieces to the newer style insulated core and haven't had any rattles develop with the new design for 6 month so hopefully that'll be that.. knock on wood. I have been repairing a lot of PDs over the past 3-4 months and it seems to be a pretty common development with those as I understand. For an UD I wouldn't consider it likely to have an impact on air/vapor purity. It is a possibility that continued flexing of the wires can cause them to fatigue and break though so I like to retrofit them to the newer style if a rattle like that develops. I've been retrofitting rattling pieces for no charge as a warranty service of course. Also, along similar lines I've retrofitted a handful of PDs that needed repair for whatever reason to an insulated UD core which has worked well.
If anyone had anything else I should have commented on just let me know, I might have missed something in there since there were so many posts I missed this afternoon.
@ Alan - thanks for the cross section picture of the HI it definitely does help to clear up any design questions, at least for me, I didn't realize the socket was threaded in so high up there. Does the core slide down all the way to the bottom of the top hole? If so then it shows really well how small the bottom chamber is that we were discussing earlier and I think does a lot to clear up any confusion or concern, at least for me so thanks again. I have a design/manufacturing question for you if you don't mind? What size thread is the hole tapped for and do you find it holds well in the wood? Have you had any woods that it doesn't hold well in?
@ BVD - apology accepted, thank you for the gesture. Also thanks for the link and description about the generic MSDS sheets being acceptable for products with the same ingredients. That's what I was trying to get across but was having a hard time putting it in the right words to explain it and hadn't had time to find the appropriate text you linked to. Also, no problem and no hard feelings if you ever want to work with me on getting you a custom vegan UD built I'd be happy to work with you on one.. no need to order incognito.
@ stickstones - I don't know about any other manufacturers but I've worked on making a Log out of non-wood materials including synthetics and while I think it's doable there are some design challenges. For me I think the biggest challenge is either finding a material that has the properties needed to make a good vape body and that can also withstand being in contact with the high temperature metal core. Alternatively you can try to design a core that isn't as hot on the outside so it doesn't tear up the body material, doing so might well be possible by design or by insulation but is also a challenge. While not perfect by any means, in the big picture of things wood is a very impressive, beautiful and resilient material at least in my mind. That doesn't mean a synthetic design won't ever happen or that I won't be working on one just that there are certain challenges to be overcome.
@ Hagbard Celine - glad to hear you're enjoying your UD dude. I'm not able to speak from firsthand experience but from my limited understanding the ceramic insulator that is used in the CRZ (and gives it its name) is a piece of very inert, very hard high-fired ceramic.. not sure how they're formed but my guess is they'd be cut from a larger plate with a water-jet or possible laser (my money would be on water-jet) and I sure they're as safe and solid as a, well, ROCK. Again, I can't speak for Rick and I don't have first hand knowledge but I'd be willing to bet that it's 100% completely good and safe.
@ Alan - a hemp stalk or corncob HI would be awesome, that would be fun to see. I wonder if you stuck a core in a cob of dried corn with the kernel still on and fired it up if it would eventually pop the corn lol.. that would be a fun experiment. Did you post pictures of your bamboo HI? That sounds pretty neat as well.
@ stickstones - I can't comment on the other vapes for rattle problems but the first generation 24/7 UD cores (like the one MoTG ended up with) are prone to loosening and developing a rattle due to the way I screwed the cores to the body. In some of those models the wood shrinks away from the core a bit and allows it to rattle back and forth on the screws, not free but not tightly held anymore. I've been retrofitting those pieces to the newer style insulated core and haven't had any rattles develop with the new design for 6 month so hopefully that'll be that.. knock on wood. I have been repairing a lot of PDs over the past 3-4 months and it seems to be a pretty common development with those as I understand. For an UD I wouldn't consider it likely to have an impact on air/vapor purity. It is a possibility that continued flexing of the wires can cause them to fatigue and break though so I like to retrofit them to the newer style if a rattle like that develops. I've been retrofitting rattling pieces for no charge as a warranty service of course. Also, along similar lines I've retrofitted a handful of PDs that needed repair for whatever reason to an insulated UD core which has worked well.
If anyone had anything else I should have commented on just let me know, I might have missed something in there since there were so many posts I missed this afternoon.
momofthegoons
vapor accessory addict
I've done a lot of soul searching over the last 48 hours regarding the influence of a customer v/s the influence of a customer who is also a mod on a vape manufacturer. I have come to the realization that my ungracious response to Dave's offer of a replacement vape could very well have a negative effect on his business. This is not something I ever wanted. This thread has been an emotional and charged rollercoaster for many and I am not immune to having been caught up in the emotional aspects of it.
I have contacted Dave and apologized for turning him down and for the negative effect this may have had for him. All that I really ever wanted when this started was answers and it has spiraled into something else entirely. Dave has been understanding and apologetic himself and I feel we have come to a good place. He has also extended his offer to me again and I am going to take him up on it. Our hope is that I will be able to give his product a big
afterwards, but if nothing else, we have mended our fence and have opened up communication with each other.
Thank you Dave, for being so gracious with your acceptance of my apology and your extended offer. This has been a rough few days for both of us and I am very glad we are past it. I look forward to working with you and seeing what we can come up with.
I have contacted Dave and apologized for turning him down and for the negative effect this may have had for him. All that I really ever wanted when this started was answers and it has spiraled into something else entirely. Dave has been understanding and apologetic himself and I feel we have come to a good place. He has also extended his offer to me again and I am going to take him up on it. Our hope is that I will be able to give his product a big
afterwards, but if nothing else, we have mended our fence and have opened up communication with each other.Thank you Dave, for being so gracious with your acceptance of my apology and your extended offer. This has been a rough few days for both of us and I am very glad we are past it. I look forward to working with you and seeing what we can come up with.
Photos do explain things so much better. Here is a photo of the bamboo HI Dave. It is my primary unit. Has been running 24/7 for months now. 7/8" in diameter and super light in weight.
The size of tap necessary for the power socket hole will depend upon the power socket that you are using. Most are 7/16" I believe. Blue Mahoe and sumac wood are not so good for tapping. The softer the wood, the less likely it will be to work. Just test out a small piece of wood before committing to a larger piece. You will be surprised how well most woods hold the threads. The bamboo just has a taped hole in the partition between sections.
While we are asking questions, I have one for you. The insulation you have been placing around the core which is right next to the air intake looks to be different than the insulation from the bottom cavity. What can you tell us about it?
The size of tap necessary for the power socket hole will depend upon the power socket that you are using. Most are 7/16" I believe. Blue Mahoe and sumac wood are not so good for tapping. The softer the wood, the less likely it will be to work. Just test out a small piece of wood before committing to a larger piece. You will be surprised how well most woods hold the threads. The bamboo just has a taped hole in the partition between sections.
While we are asking questions, I have one for you. The insulation you have been placing around the core which is right next to the air intake looks to be different than the insulation from the bottom cavity. What can you tell us about it?