lots more details and pictures in the thread - it's basically a construction diary. check around page 36 when the current model was developed.
Adhesives, Insulation and Vape Safety
- Thread starter momofthegoons
- Start date
@ Hippie Dickie - thanks for posting your diagram Hippie, I love your design concept and I've followed your thread with enthusiasm since my arrival on FC. Keep up the good work, can't wait to see your finished product on the market.
@ darkrom - thanks dude, you're absolutely right I will continue to improve and evolve the UD designs as time goes on and while I think the current methods and materials used in the UD are totally fine there very well might be better materials and designs out there, if so you can rest assured I wouldn't hesitate to adopt them that's for sure. I also like being able to adopt changes quickly and being able to retool and resume production is important to my operation. I think I've done well to setup shop in such a way as to be able to make UDs in volume sufficient to supply our users and resellers with Pups as needed, usually with no waiting or delay. It's also nice to be able to custom make pieces to almost any shape, size, style or design using pretty much any materials the customer wants and to be able to deliver those custom jobs in usually only a week or two. I think this is a result of not trying to design and build the "perfect" vape or the most "pure" vape but instead of designing a high quality, clean and safe (for most people) core with the flexibility to be used in a huge variety of shapes, sizes, etc.
The emphasis of UD vapes has always been high-end, flexible, beautiful art to be built around a powerful, functional core. I like to think we've accomplished this goal very well to date.
@ darkrom - thanks dude, you're absolutely right I will continue to improve and evolve the UD designs as time goes on and while I think the current methods and materials used in the UD are totally fine there very well might be better materials and designs out there, if so you can rest assured I wouldn't hesitate to adopt them that's for sure. I also like being able to adopt changes quickly and being able to retool and resume production is important to my operation. I think I've done well to setup shop in such a way as to be able to make UDs in volume sufficient to supply our users and resellers with Pups as needed, usually with no waiting or delay. It's also nice to be able to custom make pieces to almost any shape, size, style or design using pretty much any materials the customer wants and to be able to deliver those custom jobs in usually only a week or two. I think this is a result of not trying to design and build the "perfect" vape or the most "pure" vape but instead of designing a high quality, clean and safe (for most people) core with the flexibility to be used in a huge variety of shapes, sizes, etc.
The emphasis of UD vapes has always been high-end, flexible, beautiful art to be built around a powerful, functional core. I like to think we've accomplished this goal very well to date.
zmurder
Well-Known Member
I thought stickstones was contrasting the HI and UD in terms of the resistor being in the airpath -- but I guess I misunderstood b/c of course the resistor is in the airpath in both.
I think it's interesting to hear a manufacturer readily admit that there may be material safety concerns with a major part of their product -- the resistor itself. The fact that all log vapes use this resistor doesn't make this better -- it makes it worse. Nichrome and ceramic get brought up in vaporizer material discussions a lot, but I'm particularly interested to know if anybody knows more about this "mineral fire retardant".
I think it's interesting to hear a manufacturer readily admit that there may be material safety concerns with a major part of their product -- the resistor itself. The fact that all log vapes use this resistor doesn't make this better -- it makes it worse. Nichrome and ceramic get brought up in vaporizer material discussions a lot, but I'm particularly interested to know if anybody knows more about this "mineral fire retardant".
Here is a link to the datasheet for the resistor.
http://www.ohmite.com/cat/res_20.pdf
It says that it has a rugged vitreous enamel coating. There is no mention of nichrome.
http://www.ohmite.com/cat/res_20.pdf
It says that it has a rugged vitreous enamel coating. There is no mention of nichrome.
BigDaddyVapor
@BigDogJunction
This was the same question I had, when I saw the comment and diagram. I suspected it on the tear down, but I didn't have any point of reference. I've seen thousands of those resistors, I had the same concerns about the flame retardant nature and what happens if flaking or worse... the resistor blows out. They typically flame out, very hot. I've seen 'em burn out to. Typically, the big black burn mark, is a give away and the distinctive smell of burning electronics.
Honestly though, I don't know the dangers involved, plus the voltages we're talking about... I don't know. I'm used to working with +/- 300 volts... not 12. Big ol' resistor like that, probably goes out with a whimper, not a bang... if its even possible. I'm just getting too far into cobweb area now.
EDIT: TV thanks for the link. Going to go read it now.
EDIT II: Fast read, fast secondary confirmation. I don't have any concerns about the resistor.
Although the resistors used in vaporizers are being operated well outside of their thermal specifications, they are of such robust construction that they need to be seriously abused before failure occurs. There are thousands and thousands of these resistors being used in vaporizers around the world as we speak. I have heard of a few failures but the impression I get is one of an extremely reliable and rugged product. The resistor has a vitreous enamel coating. That is basically just glass. Having experimented with these resistors for a while now, I'm confident of their safety and reliability, but that is just my opinion. I use experience and common sense to guide my decisions.
This should give you some idea of how my Hot Pod works. You can clearly see where the resistor lies in the air path:
It's one of my early experiments, but it shows the principle of operation. Air is drawn through the hole in the side then up through the inner glass tube containing the resistor. In the final design, the outer glass tube was replaced by the pod which is covered with air intake holes. A much thinner piece of silicone tube is used at the top, and the element is threaded into the wood at the bottom. More detailed photos will appear in the Hot Pod thread as the project progresses.
This should give you some idea of how my Hot Pod works. You can clearly see where the resistor lies in the air path:
It's one of my early experiments, but it shows the principle of operation. Air is drawn through the hole in the side then up through the inner glass tube containing the resistor. In the final design, the outer glass tube was replaced by the pod which is covered with air intake holes. A much thinner piece of silicone tube is used at the top, and the element is threaded into the wood at the bottom. More detailed photos will appear in the Hot Pod thread as the project progresses.
BigDaddyVapor
@BigDogJunction
Yeah, why it didn't take me long to make up my mind about them. I followed Dave's link, did my own search on rugged vitreous enamel coating that cleared some more cobwebs, confirmed what I thought, as the lights came on.
No problemo here. They're OK, by me.
No problemo here. They're OK, by me.
u bwade wunner
Well-Known Member
those ohmite resisters are RoHS compliant too.they are soldered in using lead free solder.
Hazy nice work and Dave too.I would love to see that detail in all log vape manufacturers opening posts.i ll recap and add this:
Transparency and by that i mean, photos and a list of all materials including finishes and glues and sealants in the opening post of threads would give patients an understanding of your e designs and clear up any concerns before purchase.
It would allow patients to make a clear informed choice before purchase. For the manufacturer/retailer it will mean fewer complaints about the inner components of your e products down the track.it will also deter future log manufacturers from taking short cuts for a quick buck and will bring a better medical product to the customer.
there are no losers here.it is a win win situation all around.I think It would show the commercial manufacturers what we are all about as a community would bring the log community closer together .that is what we all want.many battles still to win in the MMJ community.I wish you all well and thank you
Hazy nice work and Dave too.I would love to see that detail in all log vape manufacturers opening posts.i ll recap and add this:
Transparency and by that i mean, photos and a list of all materials including finishes and glues and sealants in the opening post of threads would give patients an understanding of your e designs and clear up any concerns before purchase.
It would allow patients to make a clear informed choice before purchase. For the manufacturer/retailer it will mean fewer complaints about the inner components of your e products down the track.it will also deter future log manufacturers from taking short cuts for a quick buck and will bring a better medical product to the customer.
there are no losers here.it is a win win situation all around.I think It would show the commercial manufacturers what we are all about as a community would bring the log community closer together .that is what we all want.many battles still to win in the MMJ community.I wish you all well and thank you
BigDaddyVapor
@BigDogJunction
Maybe this has been answered before and I know this also goes outside the realm of logs, as MFLB and other vapes... use wood.
Certain woods are suscetible or have natural traits. Spores, fungus, etc. Also the composition changes while going through stages of being heated and cooled (through, natural characteristics of the material). Of course wood has been used for centuries as a smoking utensil and combustion is going to lead to much higher temps and more likely to char/burn.
Would I be correct in assuming that only certain kinds of woods, can be used to manufacturer them? That would make sense to me. Is that list available. Are these finished with something like butcher's block oil, or another food grade material?
Sorry, if I'm rambling... or being silly.
Certain woods are suscetible or have natural traits. Spores, fungus, etc. Also the composition changes while going through stages of being heated and cooled (through, natural characteristics of the material). Of course wood has been used for centuries as a smoking utensil and combustion is going to lead to much higher temps and more likely to char/burn.
Would I be correct in assuming that only certain kinds of woods, can be used to manufacturer them? That would make sense to me. Is that list available. Are these finished with something like butcher's block oil, or another food grade material?
Sorry, if I'm rambling... or being silly.
darkrom
Great Scott!
I know for sure the finish Dave uses is all natural and walnut based. Seems fine to me. Looks like underdog is going to be offering "vegan" dogs for us ultra picky folks. I'm going to take him up on that to ease my mind, but I have to say I've had no problems using both in their current states.
stickstones
Vapor concierge
This is a good materials (and design) discussion!
I don't have the means or talent to do a drawing, but the entire innards of the HI look like Dave's heat core drawing. So everything I saw that I was wondering about is already in the airpath of all log vapes and, according to the data sheet, is safe. I think the HI is the only 'open' log out there (although I think the Pod and JRR's vape are adopting this design). The PD, Zaps and dogs all have enclosed paths, I believe...correct me anywhere I am wrong, gang.
Dave, after looking at the drawings, I'm not sure what a closed airpath offers for superiority, given the components of the open air logs are all contained in the closed path logs heat sink. Do I have something wrong here? It looks to me like the Pod takes it a step further in the evolution by removing some of the SS for glass. How hard would it be to have the resistor completely enclosed in glass, thus making the glass the surface the air travels over to get hot. Then the only thing the air would hit would be the natural innards of the enclosure and the glass heater and the glass delivery stem. I don't have any problem with the safety of SS or the resistor, but I can no longer deny the impact glass has on taste after extensive use of my Cloud and my log vapes. The glass is not needed for safety as compared to SS, just taste. But if the enclosed air path necessitates the use of glues and silicones, why not go open path if it is just as good and doesn't use these chemicals.
I don't have the means or talent to do a drawing, but the entire innards of the HI look like Dave's heat core drawing. So everything I saw that I was wondering about is already in the airpath of all log vapes and, according to the data sheet, is safe. I think the HI is the only 'open' log out there (although I think the Pod and JRR's vape are adopting this design). The PD, Zaps and dogs all have enclosed paths, I believe...correct me anywhere I am wrong, gang.
Dave, after looking at the drawings, I'm not sure what a closed airpath offers for superiority, given the components of the open air logs are all contained in the closed path logs heat sink. Do I have something wrong here? It looks to me like the Pod takes it a step further in the evolution by removing some of the SS for glass. How hard would it be to have the resistor completely enclosed in glass, thus making the glass the surface the air travels over to get hot. Then the only thing the air would hit would be the natural innards of the enclosure and the glass heater and the glass delivery stem. I don't have any problem with the safety of SS or the resistor, but I can no longer deny the impact glass has on taste after extensive use of my Cloud and my log vapes. The glass is not needed for safety as compared to SS, just taste. But if the enclosed air path necessitates the use of glues and silicones, why not go open path if it is just as good and doesn't use these chemicals.
Abysmal Vapor
Supersniffer 2000 - robot fart detection device
I chime in to share my opinion on the perfect heater for a log vape . I very much like the Gnome vaporizers. So how hard will be to stick a gnome in a log vape.. The heat exchange area can be surrounded by coil.. (like Budtoster i think) or surrounded by ceramic ring like in the I-vaps prototype ?
placetime
Well-Known Member
My understanding is that the PD (and WDZ?) has an "open" core because the heater core is not closed on the bottom, which means that there is wood in the airpath on the entire "floor" of the heater core. CRZs, UDs, HIs, TTs, and I think the WW all have a "closed" core because the bottom of the core is closed off with a stainless steel washer (and, in some cases, silicone/glass also).
Or maybe I'm misunderstanding how this works?
@Absymal-- What's that first picture? The pic is pretty small, and I can't tell what exactly is going on there.
jackmormon
Well-Known Member
This is what FC is all about. It is really cool to see a negative thread turn into a positive one!
I come here for positive vibes so it makes my day
I come here for positive vibes so it makes my day
Abysmal, I've often wondered the same thing. Somehow incorporating a coil outside the Gn0me heat exchanger (a la BT, VXC, Vapolution) for an all-glass air path. I hadn't considered having this incorporated into a log style, but I guess it isn't too different from Andy's Epic Vape.
I love my log vapes, but there is definitely something to be said for that all-glass taste.
placetime
Well-Known Member
Doesn't the Cloud have some sort of heater surrounding a glass tube? I honestly haven't read all that much about the Cloud yet, but I thought that's what is going on in the Cloud. Someone else more in the know should be able to speak to that more than I can.Abysmal, I've often wondered the same thing. Somehow incorporating a coil outside the Gn0me heat exchanger (a la BT, VXC, Vapolution) for an all-glass air path. I hadn't considered having this incorporated into a log style, but I guess it isn't too different from Andy's Epic Vape.
I love my log vapes, but there is definitely something to be said for that all-glass taste.
stickstones
Vapor concierge
Placetime...i think you are right.
Yes. That was my point. External heating of glass tubes creates tasty vapor. Since the gn0me has a heat exchanger with more surface area than a regular tube, it may be a more efficient way of creating an all-glass path desktop-type unit.
stickstones - You are correct. The HI core air flow happens in almost the same manner as the drawing Dave provided. The differences are that there are no star washers (empty design), the glass bead is long / thin and used only for electrical insulation, the hole in the bottom is open to allow for removal of the resistor for maintenance / replacement, and the resistor is located higher up in the tube (centered). The PD is the only one I know of without a closed bottom core. The two resistor wires must come together through a hole in the center for the closed core design to work. Obviously the hole in the center does not provide for a sealed core design, but air flowing through the core only touches stainless steel surfaces and the resistor / wires. I have found that the stainless steel transfers heat faster to the air than does glass. Stainless is also much more durable.
Here is the photo I had previously posted of the HI internals. The center tube is mechanically fastened to the washer and the outer sleeve is then mechanically fastened to the washer (no welding) to create one integral unit. This view shows the 6 air intake holes in the center tube. The intake air will take the path of least resistance which is through the 6 intake holes and up the center tube past the hot resistor. The 6 holes in the center tube physically restrict the flow of heat energy out to the wood to 1/3 of the resistor heat generation capacity. This makes insulation unnecessary and minimizes any caramelization of the wood. The heat still makes it to the wood but at a much slower rate. The power plug threads in the bottom hole to provide an air tight seal and provide proper positioning of the resistor in the center tube.
Here is the photo I had previously posted of the HI internals. The center tube is mechanically fastened to the washer and the outer sleeve is then mechanically fastened to the washer (no welding) to create one integral unit. This view shows the 6 air intake holes in the center tube. The intake air will take the path of least resistance which is through the 6 intake holes and up the center tube past the hot resistor. The 6 holes in the center tube physically restrict the flow of heat energy out to the wood to 1/3 of the resistor heat generation capacity. This makes insulation unnecessary and minimizes any caramelization of the wood. The heat still makes it to the wood but at a much slower rate. The power plug threads in the bottom hole to provide an air tight seal and provide proper positioning of the resistor in the center tube.
stickstones
Vapor concierge
Thanks, Alan!
I hadn't thought about the thermal capabilities of SS vs. glass. So would I be right in assuming that if the heat transfer was to take place with glass instead of SS that it would require more power?
I hadn't thought about the thermal capabilities of SS vs. glass. So would I be right in assuming that if the heat transfer was to take place with glass instead of SS that it would require more power?
however, glass is fast enough --- provided the cooling effect on the glass by the airflow is corrected by a dynamic heater ... before adding the temperature controller i would see a 50°F temp drop with a hit.
The transfer of heat to the air is dependent upon the temperature of the material and the surface area. Stainless steel conducts heat about 16 times faster than glass so it takes less heat / power to maintain a certain temperature. The resistor can transfer the heat to stainless steel much faster than to glass and therefore transfer more heat to the air at a given voltage. The resistor itself transfers a considerable portion of energy to the air. The less heat it transfers to the outer core / wood, the more is available to heat the air. The slower the rate of heat transfer to the wood / outer core, the faster the heat up time.
Glass definitely transfers heat fast enough to attain temperatures for vaporizing and adds no taste to the air. I had given it some thought for my design, but chose to go with the durability of stainless steel.
In the interest of peoples concerns here's a diagram of how the internals of the WW are configured.
I recently included the glass tube leading to the lower chamber to the design. This will reduce the chance of any wood particulate entering the airflow. The glass beads are purely for electrical insulation but also act to reduce the space leading to the lower chamber. Air will travel down the path of least resistance. As seen by the red 'Air-Flow' lines, the air will travel down the SS cup, through the air holes and back up the internal heat port.
And here's some more detailing the manufacture process and materials used in Wychwood Vaporizers.
The Wood: After turning, boring and installation the bottom Wychwood plug is sanded to a tight fit and, without glue, hammered into place. Then a layer of glue is used on the exterior bottom to affix the material cover. The wood is then treated to several layers of mixed bees and carnauba wax.
The Cup: The internal Stainless Steel Cup comprises of 3 parts - the central 'Heat Port', the outer wall and the floor. The central heat port is 316 grade, the outer tube and floor both 304. The 3 parts are arc welded together from the bottom using 316 rods. After welding I deburr and grind the welds, then polish using a high speed rotor wire head. A 304 Stainless Steel screen is used in the top of the heat port.
The Electrics: The ceramic heating element is lengthened and connected on one side with a twist and solder joint - solder is also used to connect to the power jack. The power jack is threaded into the wood without glue. I use glass beads for electrical insulation .
Sorry for the lame pic but I did it on Paint. It's not to scale or anything but gives the gist of what's going on. I hope that explains the design to peoples satisfaction. Again, if anyone has any questions please ask away.
I recently included the glass tube leading to the lower chamber to the design. This will reduce the chance of any wood particulate entering the airflow. The glass beads are purely for electrical insulation but also act to reduce the space leading to the lower chamber. Air will travel down the path of least resistance. As seen by the red 'Air-Flow' lines, the air will travel down the SS cup, through the air holes and back up the internal heat port.
And here's some more detailing the manufacture process and materials used in Wychwood Vaporizers.
The Wood: After turning, boring and installation the bottom Wychwood plug is sanded to a tight fit and, without glue, hammered into place. Then a layer of glue is used on the exterior bottom to affix the material cover. The wood is then treated to several layers of mixed bees and carnauba wax.
The Cup: The internal Stainless Steel Cup comprises of 3 parts - the central 'Heat Port', the outer wall and the floor. The central heat port is 316 grade, the outer tube and floor both 304. The 3 parts are arc welded together from the bottom using 316 rods. After welding I deburr and grind the welds, then polish using a high speed rotor wire head. A 304 Stainless Steel screen is used in the top of the heat port.
The Electrics: The ceramic heating element is lengthened and connected on one side with a twist and solder joint - solder is also used to connect to the power jack. The power jack is threaded into the wood without glue. I use glass beads for electrical insulation .
Sorry for the lame pic but I did it on Paint. It's not to scale or anything but gives the gist of what's going on. I hope that explains the design to peoples satisfaction. Again, if anyone has any questions please ask away.
I only have 4 intake holes in the base to restrict the air flow a bit. The WW does not get as hot as the HI so needs a bit of a slower draw speed - also takes longer to get up to operating temp - around 15mins as opposed to the HI's 5mins.