Adhesives, Insulation and Vape Safety

[zymos]

Great post Rick, thanks for chiming in.

If people want to be concerned about a material that could only possibly be harmful if fibers of it were inhaled, being used in a situation where it is virtually impossible for that to ever occur,well, I could maybe call that micro-knit picking as well, but again I'm chalking it up to a different philosophy.

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

BDV, im not sure how else to explain my perspective in a situation like this. i guess its my own 'philosophy' or 'personal decision' or whatever you may call it for my opinions on the materials used in the UD vape.

as others have stated, i don't believe that a material that is outside of the airpath will have a detrimental effect on my health and also wouldn't be too much of a bother because i am not a medical patient as i understand many of you may be so im not as sensitive to certain aspects.

however, i hope we can just agree to disagree on something like this where it calls into account on our personal decisions and our 'philosophies.' i would rather not start any controversy and argue with any of you, we're all friends here

Read my post again. I have specifically asked for the particular product and associated MSDS. Philosophy at this point, is moot. This is a materials discussion thread. Not a philosophy thread. That much has been made clear, several times.

What is also being made clear, in my personal opinion, is that this particular piece of information, seems to be making a LOT of people uncomfortable.

Please, topic. Materials.

Great post Rick, thanks for chiming in.

If people want to be concerned about a material that could only possibly be harmful if fibers of it were inhaled, being used in a situation where it is virtually impossible for that to ever occur,well, I could maybe call that micro-knit picking as well, but again I'm chalking it up to a different philosophy.

Its a materials discussion. If you want to talk philosophy, you're welcome to start your own thread.

 

[zymos]

Perhaps Rick was referring to this?

As for this thread, I'm done with it. I'm done arguing with Dave. I'm done arguing with his fans, that believe anything Dave tells them. I'm a bit more guarded with my health, to take chances. I know I won't ever buy one of his vapes, so I'm not really much interested in a subject much anymore, that I once was.

While reading back, also got to re read a lot of really rude personal attacks, and it says a lot about most of the other members, and Dave himself, that this thread has been as civil as it has...

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

Perhaps Rick was referring to this?



While reading back, also got to re read a lot of really rude personal attacks, and it says a lot about most of the other members, and Dave himself, that this thread has been as civil as it has...

I'm sorry. Where did I sign in blood? I've got to read a lot of rude personal attacks also. You're bordering on it, right now.

NOTE: Also, that statement was made PRIOR to the other vape manufacturers all chiming in, which is of interest to me.

I suggest, you move off the personal angle, zymos or I won't hesitate to report you. If you don't like that I'm speaking of materials, not philosophy... then, like I said. Start your own thread. Nevermind, already done.

 

[zymos]

You denied it, I called you on it. Nothing rude or personal, just your words on the page.

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

NOTE CONTEXT AND COMPREHEND.

Another thing that pisses me off while I am in the mood. Folks that say they will not post anymore, then they totally ignore their own word and shit on someone......again.

Any particular examples? The mods have been monitoring this thread, quite closely. I think any case of shitting on someone, would be handled rather quickly.

As for someone posting after saying they're leaving, since when is that a signed in blood oath? People aren't allowed to change their mind? Maybe something new came up, for them to air a concern. Is it in the ToS?

 

[WatTyler]

Wat, I don't think we would be having this discussion, if anyone here was risk averse to vaping, do you?

No, but I'm making the point that there are people who are even more risk averse than you, and there are people who are less. Let them decide.

Enough facts are out there for the potential user to make something of an informed decision.

The fact is that there's an unknown brand of alumina fibre being used. You have that information- it's enough to make to your mind up either way.

I don't think it's fair of you to single out UD like this, bearing in mid that you're not a user, when other vapes that you also don't use aren't similarly attacked. What about the range of undisclosed materials in the ecig type vaporizers? What about the battery in the MFLB, that is connected to the airpath? I could go on and on with examples.

 

[t-dub]

If people want to be concerned about a material that could only possibly be harmful if fibers of it were inhaled, being used in a situation where it is virtually impossible for that to ever occur,well, I could maybe call that micro-knit picking as well, but again I'm chalking it up to a different philosophy.

Yeah, well I'm chalking it up to you being insensitive to disabled persons needs. Some aussie guy trivialized and joked about my needs earlier in this thread and I said nothing, but I can stand no more. I have a deficient immune system, it doesn't work. Highest risks for me are: Tuberculosis, lymphoma, lung cancer, pneumonia. This is serious shit to me people. I have wound up in hospital many times gettin Staph infections cut out and cleaned, my shower looks like a surgery, it has too. How many of you out there have an infectious diseases expert on your wellness team or wash with surgical scrub eh?

This isn't a philosophy. This is real. Death is permanent and irreversible.

And materials matter to me especially the risks involved.

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

No, but I'm making the point that there are people who are even more risk averse than you, and there are people who are less. Let them decide.

Enough facts are out there for the potential user to make something of an informed decision.

The fact is that there's an unknown brand of alumina fibre being used. You have that information- it's enough to make to your mind up either way.

I don't think it's fair of you to single out UD like this, bearing in mid that you're not a user, when other vapes that you also don't use aren't similarly attacked. What about the range of undisclosed materials in the ecig type vaporizers? What about the battery in the MFLB, that is connected to the airpath? What about ... I could go on and on.

UD is being singled out, ON THIS ISSUE, because he hasn't been forthcoming. Once again. Its a materials discussion thread. Dave himself, threw down the gauntlet for the others. They have complied with every question asked of them.

Please, don't reply to me again, unless its specifically on the topic of the particular insulation used. I will consider any other reply, your attempt at inflaming the situation and attempt at derailing the conversation. I don't have the answer I want, neither do other people, that have asked the same. The ball is in Dave's court... not your's. He can either provide the information, or refuse to do so.

 

[zymos]

Yeah, well I'm chalking it up to you being insensitive to disabled persons needs. Some aussie guy trivialized and joked about my needs earlier in this thread and I said nothing, but I can stand no more. I have a deficient immune system, it doesn't work. Highest risks for me are: Tuberculosis, lymphoma, lung cancer, pneumonia. This is serious shit to me people. I have wound up in hospital many times gettin Staph infections cut out and cleaned, my shower looks like a surgery, it has too. How many of you out there have an infectious diseases expert on your wellness team or wash with surgical scrub eh?

This isn't a philosophy. This is real. Death is permanent and irreversible.

And materials matter to me especially the risks involved.

How is it insensitive to say over and over that everyone makes their own choices about acceptable risk?
I'm fully aware that we all use different criteria to make those choices,but I am adamant that there is no single correct criteria for everyone, and that it impossible to remove literally all risk from one's life.

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

Its insensitive to repeatedly IGNORE THE POINT.

WHAT IS THE SPECIFIC MATERIAL USED?

Once again... this is a CONSTRUCTION MATERIALS THREAD. If it bothers you that we are speaking of materials, then why don't YOU leave the thread. YOU are the one off-topic in this thread.

 

[WatTyler]

UD is being singled out, ON THIS ISSUE, because he hasn't been forthcoming.

He has been as forthcoming as he's able. You just don't like the fact that the answer is not as complete as you deem necessary. If UD doesn't know don't you understand that you won't get one? No matter how much you go on.

Please, don't reply to me again, unless its specifically on the topic of the particular insulation used. I will consider any other reply, your attempt at inflaming the situation and attempt at derailing the conversation. I don't have the answer I want, neither do other people, that have asked the same. The ball is in Dave's court... not your's. He can either provide the information, or refuse to do so.

I just have couldn't resist your baiting. The only one causing trouble is you, I'm afraid. You like a confrontation- there are lots of far more worthy causes elewhere on the internet.

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

He has been as forthcoming as he's able. You just don't like the fact that the answer is not complete. Don't you underswtand that you won't get one? No matter how much you go on.

So then, we can come to the conclusion that Dave either doesn't know what he's using in his product, or he doesn't want us to know. NO matter how you try and spin it.

I just have couldn't resist your baiting. The only one causing trouble is you, I'm afraid. You like a confrontation- there are lots of far more worthy causes elewhere on the internet.

That is a personal attack and an assumption. I didn't confront you, Wat. Quite the opposite.

 

[Rick]

BDV, I am not entitled to my OPINION re posters without several paragraphs challenging my opinion? In a post that has nothing to do with materials? Interesting fork in the road.
Would you please answer how the assumed bad material gets to the device user?
What about the materials used in every other vape on FC? Where is the scrutiny?

 

[WatTyler]

So then, we can come to the conclusion that Dave either doesn't know what he's using in his product, or he doesn't want us to know. NO matter how you try and spin it.

It's alumina fibre. There may be risks if it's inhaled.

I didn't confront you, Wat. Quite the opposite.

This is tiresome. Understand that when you say:

don't reply to me again, unless its specifically on the topic of the particular insulation used. I will consider any other reply, your attempt at inflaming the situation and attempt at derailing the conversation.

unfavourably pre-empting and prejudging my contribution then I am going to respond, and not in the most favourable way. Just chill the fuck out, for vapors sakes. Let's all get along.

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

BDV, I am not entitled to my OPINION re posters without several paragraphs challenging my opinion

Huh? Where did I say you aren't entitled to an opinion, or are you saying, some else is preventing you from voicing an opinion? A little clarification please.

In a post that has nothing to do with materials? Interesting fork in the road.

Again, huh? Context please.

Would you please answer how the assumed bad material gets to the device user?

Would you explain why that's important. What if it spontaneously combusts? What if corrosion leads to exposure. That's not the point and what you're not getting. It doesn't matter where it is. This is a materials discussion thread (for like the 10th time now). That includes ALL the materials used in the manufacturing of the vape.

What about the materials used in every other vape on FC? Where is the scrutiny?

What about them? Its been addressed in this topic. You're free to go back and read the pertinent posts, in that regards.

So, let's get back on topic. The materials used. Do you have the answer, or would you also like to continue derailing the thread?

unfavourably pre-empting and prejudging my contribution then I am going to respond, and not in the most favourable way. Just chill the fuck out, for vapors sakes. Let's all get along.

Doesn't need a response, stands on its own.

 

[zmurder]

First, I want to ask, as I did over the brass issue, how does any questionable smell or chemical or fiber or particle get delivered to the device user? How can that happen with a 'closed' vapor airflow? We are supposed to be talking materials here, not philosophy. How does the bad material connect with the vape user? or does it?

Rick asks a serious question here, and I think it deserves a serious answer. How could these potentially bad (potentially cancerous) materials actually make their way to the user? The answer is simple -- the silicon or wood has to change in only the slightest way to then break the "seal". A little charring of wood, or perhaps you drop your Underdog and slightly budge the silicon "plug", and all of a sudden you have an "open" core, open to all the potentially hazardous materials used by Dave below the core. If you don't think these slight changes to the wood or silicon could possibly take place in a 400F environment....well then I dunno.

 

[WatTyler]

So, let's get back on topic. The materials used. Do you have the answer, or would you also like to continue derailing the thread?

ALUMINA FIBRE INSULATION



We just don't know that brand. But do we actually know that the MSDS presented is invalid? Or is this just an assumption? I thought the MSDS was a legal requirement, in which case one would have to assume that it is valid for that particular product in the first instance? IDK it's not my area.

Rick asks a serious question here, and I think it deserves a serious answer. How could these potentially bad (potentially cancerous) materials actually make their way to the user? The answer is simple -- the silicon or wood has to change in only the slightest way to then break the "seal". A little charring of wood, or perhaps you drop your Underdog and slightly budge the silicon "plug", and all of a sudden you have an "open" core, open to all the potentially hazardous materials used by Dave below the core. If you don't think these slight changes to the wood or silicon could possibly take place in a 400F environment....well then I dunno.

This is a good point. I have had 2 PD pandoras split on me- when I took off the bottom on one the split was far worse in the bottom part (split through the wire holes), linking to that empty bottom chamber. I assume that the split actually started on the bottom there and was invisible for quite some time until it worked its way up. I don't know if this happens to other logs though.

 

[momofthegoons]

ALUMINA FIBRE INSULATION

The problem here lies in that there are different types/brands of this product and that the MSDS sheets for each one are different.

One can say the same for silicone. All silicones are not made equally. So the particular brand is of importance. Same for glues.

With that I'd like everyone to take two giant steps back, vape a bowl/stem/trench full and take a big breath. There's been enough anger in this thread already. This needs to continue in a positive and productive direction.

 

[WatTyler]

I understand that Mom, the point I'm making is that we have made an assumption that the MSDS given does not apply to this brand. If that assumption is true then there would be a flouting of the law by the supplier. It's fine to question that, but BDV has continued on the assumption that the MSDS is invalid or misleading, and is clamouring for 'the truth'. I don't think it's fair to continue on that basis- we have to assume that MSDS laws are upheld, otherwise they're useless and pointless and we'll argue forever about everything.

 

[Rick]

We have two chambers in the wood. The top chamber has air being pulled by a human user. The top chamber also has several air inlet holes so there will be a flow of air through the top(heatport/heat exchanger) chamber. The bottom chamber is closed with no possibility of air entering the bottom chamber from outside the bottom chamber. When one sucks on the top chamber, they can only pull air from/through the top chamber. It is close to impossible, with human lung capacity and air entry holes open in the top chamber, to suck any air from the closed bottom chamber.

When someone answers a question about how something bad is in any way delivered to a human user by then asking why that question is important, my point is confirmed.

This thread is about knowledge and fear and the wide gap between the two.

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

Rick asks a serious question here, and I think it deserves a serious answer. How could these potentially bad (potentially cancerous) materials actually make their way to the user? The answer is simple -- the silicon or wood has to change in only the slightest way to then break the "seal". A little charring of wood, or perhaps you drop your Underdog and slightly budge the silicon "plug", and all of a sudden you have an "open" core, open to all the potentially hazardous materials used by Dave below the core. If you don't think these slight changes to the wood or silicon could possibly take place in a 400F environment....well then I dunno.

THANK YOU! I'd kiss you, if it wasn't gross (unless you're a chick).

Coming from a electronics/technical background... I've seen this crap happen. Shit doesn't always work the way its supposed to and sometimes, when something gets jostled... catastrophic events happen. These questions, HAVE to be asked.

Yet, why does this have to be turned into some supposed personal vendetta, by others. Hell, I really wanted a UD. I jumped in the thread one day and was loving, what I read from Dave and all the UD users. I didn't know much about the process of science/mechanics involved... but I knew I really wanted a log vape (damn boobs and his videos!). I still might buy one, some day. I don't hate Dave or the UD. I don't dislike him. Though, I don't envy his position, right now. But, hey... its a necessary evil and no pity. I've been put on the spot before and been made to answer for my actions. Sometimes I could stand my ground and prove my points. Sometimes, I got schooled.

Instead of push back, or defending the indefensible (sorry, can't tell you exactly what it is)... isn't a satisfactory answer. It just isn't. Unfortunately, that makes some uncomfortable. I question why. Though, admittedly that's OT also. However... asking for the specifics of the materials, is NOT.

 

[WatTyler]

There was the possibility of some upwards airflow through my PD- the power socket was the possible point of entry for fresh air intake on the bottom, and then up through the crack. I don't know if it ever did though- there weren't any nasties there to avoid and I didn't really look for airflow. I guess that when the power socket it plugged in it fills up that hole anyway- practically airtight.

Yet, why does this has to be turned into some supposed personal vendetta, by others.

BDV, with respect, if there's any vendetta it's yours; you're responsible for almost 15% of the posts in this thread, many of them repeating the same things.

 

[zymos]

I personally agree with you Rick, but other members have a more zero tolerance approach , which is their prerogative.

 

[zmurder]

When someone answers a question about how something bad is in any way delivered to a human user by then asking why that question is important, my point is confirmed.

I was really trying to answer your question Rick. I think the question is VERY important. I don't think I ever questioned the importance of the issue.

I think it is UNSAFE to ASSUME that materials used in a BREATHING DEVICE are NOT going to make it into the user's system......especially when they're just below a VERY HOT silicon/wood plug. As WatTyler noted with his PDs, wood can change a lot under extreme heat, warping slightly, charring a bit, etc. I think many of us have also seen that behavior with silicon. The point is that if these materials WARPED, DISINTEGRATED, or really changed in any way then these potentially harmful materials WOULD be exposed to the hot air path. The above have been my opinions, though they are reasoned and have been fairly stated IMO.