Divine Tribe atty's

[mrbonsai420]

I haven't kept up with this thread, so maybe its already been discussed, but you guys are really just recreating the atomizers that source has recently come out with. Is there something particular that you think you can achieve by doing this in a DT body that inst being achieved with the source product?

I would love to try one and find out. if they can do it in a DT body that would make them available , Source isn't currently selling the V4 last I checked so they really aren't available. Plus these would still be half the price right? The source is pretty much exactly a little crucible on a donut atty and they can't keep them in stock at $50 each. Hopefully if these guys can figure out the perfect little cup for air flow then we might be able to have them for under $20 and actually find them. I would love to see more about a nice working insert for these that works with the air flow as is.

 

[Hoosier]

I would love to try one and find out. if they can do it in a DT body that would make them available , Source isn't currently selling the V4 last I checked so they really aren't available. Plus these would still be half the price right? The source is pretty much exactly a little crucible on a donut atty and they can't keep them in stock at $50 each. Hopefully if these guys can figure out the perfect little cup for air flow then we might be able to have them for under $20 and actually find them. I would love to see more about a nice working insert for these that works with the air flow as is.

Cool. My post was not intended to be pro-source or anything like that. I as more interested to see if folks here were improving upon the source design.

As far as not being able to keep coils in stock, I think they are having major issues with the reliability of the coils.

 

[fernand]

What we're discussing here is the Donut atomizer that Matt has done such a great job on.

@elmoe420 yes, of course. And on the shallow bowl DT the "riding up" is there too, though you can hold the cup down with e.g. an inverted screen, and a 6.8 mm diameter doesn't block air.
Then we're down to one issue: air flow coming in low cools the cup in spots.

But I think the issue with DT air holes being so low also degrades Temp Control in "normal" (as in bacon directly on range top) operation, by cooling the donut in spots.

An advantage of the fat e-nails is that they maintain temp, and evenly. Likewise in the donut atomizers a cup/insert can even out and maintain the heat.

I think the DT device has better quality, more consistent heater donuts than e.g. the black ones from keepitmovin13 on e-bay.

@mrbonsai420 I have tried smaller and shallower crucibles and they tend to dance around in the DT.

A 4 mm deep one sits perfectly in the black bowl, with air swirling and picking up the vapor right above the crucible. Air has to swirl into the cup. Like the reason a carb cap is used with nails is to direct air at the nail.

I think the out of stock situation w/ Source confirms that the crucible concept is the future, and the future is ... now. So we're pushing Matt to give us more airflow options on the DT 3.0, like an adjustable high and low path, low for use without a crucible. Pair a rebuildable donut atty with a crucible option, and ya got a winner.

 

[mrbonsai420]

What we're discussing here is the Donut atomizer that Matt has done such a great job on.

@elmoe420 yes, of course. And on the shallow bowl DT the "riding up" is there too, though you can hold the cup down with e.g. an inverted screen, and a 6.8 mm diameter doesn't block air.
Then we're down to one issue: air flow coming in low cools the cup in spots.

But I think the issue with DT air holes being so low also degrades Temp Control in "normal" (as in bacon directly on range top) operation, by cooling the donut in spots.

An advantage of the fat e-nails is that they maintain temp, and evenly. Likewise in the donut atomizers a cup/insert can even out and maintain the heat.

I think the DT device has better quality, more consistent heater donuts than e.g. the black ones from keepitmovin13 on e-bay.

@mrbonsai420 I have tried smaller and shallower crucibles and they tend to dance around in the DT.

A 4 mm deep one sits perfectly in the black bowl, with air swirling and picking up the vapor right above the crucible. Air has to swirl into the cup. Like the reason a carb cap is used with nails is to direct air at the nail.

I think the out of stock situation w/ Source confirms that the crucible concept is the future, and the future is ... now. So we're pushing Matt to give us more airflow options on the DT 3.0, like an adjustable high and low path, low for use without a crucible. Pair a rebuildable donut atty with a crucible option, and ya got a winner.

I agree! It's like a mini Liger banger! In fact, We need to find SiC crucibles! Although I will settle for quartz and ceramic. Can you send me a link in a PM to the 4mm cup you think fits the best please

 

[b0]

I agree! It's like a mini Liger banger! In fact, We need to find SiC crucibles! Although I will settle for quartz and ceramic. Can you send me a link in a PM to the 4mm cup you think fits the best please

Will love to get that link myself too

 

[Msek]

Oooh cleaning the crucibles might have some promise too.

Wonder how tossing used/dirty crucibles in a sous vide bag with some solidified coconut oil, vacuum seal, and then toss into a ultra sonic cleaner filled with warm water.
If this pans out then low temp hits for the tasty goodies followed by cleaning to recover the rest for sleepy time edibles? Might have to clean with the same batch of coconut oil until it has absorbed enough product.

 

[fernand]

I've been vaping off the lowest temp fraction in the daytime, and setting aside the cups with the remainder for night time. When the temp is set higher, all that's left is dark matter. No need for solvents.

The trick is tapping out the cup while it's still warm because some oil always sticks on the sides, and if the oil bubbles while vaporizing, some can even reach the donut. So if the assembly is cold, the cup is hard to remove.

With a cheap little Scorchi pocket lighter/torch and tweezers it takes 10-15 seconds to bring a cup back to 100% gleaming white. They are made of non-reactive alumina, also called raw sapphire or high-temp ceramic, or any number of names. Seems like a very good material.

Much as with the donut itself, load tiny and load often. Don't want it boiling over. Dab tools are too big. Easy to load the cup outside the well with some sort of small pointy tool. I'm still working out the details.

 

[mrbonsai420]

Check these out! Looks just like a DT atty with a solid flat disc? I wonder if they work any better? Has anyone seen these, could these be leaked V3's?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ceramic-Don...81c715d7c:g:ZL8AAOSwHxVW8EfX&autorefresh=true

 

[PoopMachine]

Check these out! Looks just like a DT atty with a solid flat disc? I wonder if they work any better? Has anyone seen these, could these be leaked V3's?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ceramic-Don...81c715d7c:g:ZL8AAOSwHxVW8EfX&autorefresh=true

Ill let you know in 3-5 days.

 

[mrbonsai420]

Ill let you know in 3-5 days.

me too, I just ordered one as well. LOL Hey, offer him less money!!, I offered him $10 and he accepted. Someone try $8 lol

It was either that or a type A Miracle coil.

 

[fernand]

I can tell u for sure they are not "leaked V 3's".

The construction appears to have the same top air holes and inlets in the base as the more conventional black donut ones I got from keepitmovin13, so they are likely just that with a different heater. The one picture I had showed the wires weren't as evenly distributed.

They do quote a higher resistance range, so the heater wire could be different, maybe better and maybe worse for TC. Certainly would require some recalibration and testing. An BTW this is where having a real time resistance readout, like on the Joyetechs, is very handy.

 

[Steven]

Those dish type of heaters are nothing new and I can back up Fernand on it not being a leaked v3. I think the closest thing to a leaked v3 is the new atmos kiln others have mentioned. The dish type heaters were talked about on this forum months ago. From what I remember, they were of lower quality and have uneven distribution of heat. But overall they perform more or less the same as a dt donut. I haven't tried it first hand, I only recall what others have posted on here

 

[fernand]

They are now available in stunningly hideous colors too ...

 

[Msek]

I've been vaping off the lowest temp fraction in the daytime, and setting aside the cups with the remainder for night time. When the temp is set higher, all that's left is dark matter. No need for solvents.....

Sounds good.
Low temp vape for goodies then incorporating the rest into edibles, along with maintaining a low tolerance is my aim.

 

[Quote]

I've seen that people set their TCR m value to 235-255, but I don't understand why. The TC wire is Ni200, or pure nickel, yes?

Well the instructions for the VTC mini say nickel wire should use 600-700. I haven't tried that yet, but I did try 300-400, the recommended setting for NiFe wire, and it appears to work well.

I'm using an IR thermometer for testing. I know they're supposedly not accurate, but I used it to measure the iStick eLeaf, and it actually measured accurately. This leads me to two strange conclusions: the eLeaf is actually pretty good for the DT, and the TC wire is NiFe rather than Ni200.

I'm really confused here. Doesn't make a lot of sense. If anyone has insight on this, please help me understand how this all works. Probably should call @OF to this, seem to know your stuff.

 

[Vape Donkey 650]

OF and fernand have gone over this topic pretty well if you care to dig up the history on this thread, but I've been lead to believe (by everyone) that the wire in the DT donut is nichrome, not Ni200.

Entering TCR values higher into 300-400 should work fine if you set the "temp" lower to compensate. The displayed temperatures and TCR is merely for our amusement, what really matters is the coil resistance delta rise.

And if you mean eleaf, as in eleaf pico, then I would agree with you, yes that is a pretty good vape for the DT. But if you mean istick 40w TC, then no, I can't agree with you there.

Everyone's gettin all antsy and anxious waiting for the v3.0 I believe the new version will have nichrome heaters as well, since I haven't heard anything to the contrary

 

[Quote]

Oh it's nichrome, okay. That makes sense then. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

 

[OF]

Oh it's nichrome, okay. That makes sense then. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Yep, it's also not wire. At least not on the genuine units. It's a deposited metal film on the ceramic base. I suspect vacuum coated (using a mask to control deposit). That is the parts are heated in the vacuum then exposed to the vapor of boiling metal (which condenses atom by atom) into the film. Those fancy chrome sun glasses are done the same way, the film is only a few atoms thick there, enough to look like Chrome but thin enough to see through. I understand modern 'one way glass' is done the same way, although it used to be done chemically with more effort and poorer results.

Not that it really matters a lot, but that does prevent 'hot spots' and the potential failure (probably the inside of loops) from thermal change induced stresses. The metal is sure to expand more and faster than the stuff around it.

OF

 

[blizingerbs]

Yep, it's also not wire. At least not on the genuine units. It's a deposited metal film on the ceramic base. I suspect vacuum coated (using a mask to control deposit). That is the parts are heated in the vacuum then exposed to the vapor of boiling metal (which condenses atom by atom) into the film. Those fancy chrome sun glasses are done the same way, the film is only a few atoms thick there, enough to look like Chrome but thin enough to see through. I understand modern 'one way glass' is done the same way, although it used to be done chemically with more effort and poorer results.

Not that it really matters a lot, but that does prevent 'hot spots' and the potential failure (probably the inside of loops) from thermal change induced stresses. The metal is sure to expand more and faster than the stuff around it.

OF

No you're getting your ceramic elements mixed up, the ones in DT donuts indeed, as discussed at great length are nichrome wire inside alumina ceramic. break one open and you'll see. They are TC compatible
You're speaking of a different kind of ceramic heater that is in use in some other products. Known as HTCC elements, they are not TC compatible.

Since you have different information then the masses would you care to share your source that genuine units use this type and so-called fakes use something else? if so what? I haven't heard any discussion regarding different heating elements in DT units.
It's interesting that you speculate about the heater manufacture but a simple google search will steer you right. They are not at all manufactured using any kind of thin film vacuum deposition but hey it nice to imagine whatever we want.....
lastly, alumina ceramic has a very similar rate of expansion to the wire used inside. Google it, I didn't just make this up cause I thought it might be cool to say it


Regards





(edit:spelling mistakes)

 

[OF]

Since you have different information then the masses would you care to share your source that genuine units use this type and so-called fakes use something else? if so what? I haven't heard any discussion regarding different heating elements in DT units.

lastly, alumina ceramic has a very similar rate of expansion to the wire used inside. Google it, I didn't just make this up cause I thought it might be cool to say it

If you check back you should find discussions on how the genuine units glow in flat, broad areas between the terminals when over heated? The clones (at least some) show a 'zig-zag' pattern (the apparent result of wire rather than continuous film), which as I recall is how that discussion got started?

Again, the problem with thermal expansion stresses is the rate of change, not the magnitude. The metal heats very fast, expanding as it does, the materials around it at a slower rate since it has to heat by conduction. Glass to metal seals where the metal heats is a tough nut for that reason, the faster the heat change the larger the stresses.

Look at the pattern of glow in the clones, some spots are hotter than others? The insides of turns (compression) is usually where problems start.

I tried several (I think 3?) 'clones', two black with one of those solid disks not doughnuts. Not only did they seem to come in with different (lower?) resistances but all of them leaked in very quickly (I posted as much I'm sure). For that reason alone I suggest avoiding them. The genuine DT is really not very expensive and lasts a very long time if not abused. I recommend them.

BTW TDR values of 245 seemed to work fairly well with the clones, they made vapor, just filled up the base with concentrate right away. My guess is the seal around the lead wires is not as good?

OF

 

[Quote]

I just tried a fresh atty with the VTC mini with a TCR of 255 from 300F up to 500F, and all that happened was the wax melted into the center of the donut. The wax is still just as lightly colored as it was when I put it in. Anyone know what might be going on? I'm about to try my old atty at the same settings to check if it's just a bad atty.

 

[OF]

I just tried a fresh atty with the VTC mini with a TCR of 255 from 300F up to 500F, and all that happened was the wax melted into the center of the donut. The wax is still just as lightly colored as it was when I put it in. Anyone know what might be going on? I'm about to try my old atty at the same settings to check if it's just a bad atty.

Strange indeed. What resistance does it read for the new atty? How about the old one?

You might try changing to VW mode and setting it for 12 Watts. That should take you over 425F or so (it won't display temps in that mode).

TIA

OF

 

[Quote]

Strange indeed. What resistance does it read for the new atty? How about the old one?

You might try changing to VW mode and setting it for 12 Watts. That should take you over 425F or so (it won't display temps in that mode).

TIA

OF

I tried the old atty, and it worked like normal. I ran the new one at 12W and got the donut red, and it boiled off most of the wax, but there's still a thick layer of dark oil at the bottom of the cup, where the old atty would have been clear white.

It looks like the donut is slightly higher on the new than the old. This is almost definitely the problem. I'm thinking I should contact Matt and get a refund, though I might just let it slide because I love what he's doing.

Old one should be good til the V3 comes out. Hopefully that's soon. I want rebuildable so I can fix small adjustment problems like this on my own.

 

[Steven]

I tried the old atty, and it worked like normal. I ran the new one at 12W and got the donut red, and it boiled off most of the wax, but there's still a thick layer of dark oil at the bottom of the cup, where the old atty would have been clear white.

It looks like the donut is slightly higher on the new than the old. This is almost definitely the problem. I'm thinking I should contact Matt and get a refund, though I might just let it slide because I love what he's doing.

Old one should be good til the V3 comes out. Hopefully that's soon. I want rebuildable so I can fix small adjustment problems like this on my own.

It's also important to note what wattage are you using with the tcr and temp. It's true that there are some attys that just don't follow the usual formula of settings. If your oil is just sitting there, try lowering the tcr to maybe 245. The lower the tcr, the hotter the donut runs. Also, try to increase the wattage so there will be more heat. If wax is just pooled there, you are not getting enough heat. I have an atty I'm using right now that doesn't behave normally, but I got it to behave like a normal atty by increasing heat through higher wattage in tcr mode. That atty definitely isn't worthless. I've also noticed pooled wax if the locked resistance doesn't actually match the resistance of the donut in vw mode

 

[Quote]

The lower the tcr, the hotter the donut runs.

Are you sure about that? When I was testing TCRs with my IR thermometer, I found that 300-400 was running a lot hotter than the 235-255 suggested range.