Discontinued Zion vaporizer

VegNVape

Increase the Peace
Company Rep
I had mine, didn't see much witchcraft. :cool:

I saw a control knob that didn't work, magnets that came unglued and poor battery connections that produced smoke.

Edit: I hope my mind will be changed.
Nah bro, it's witchcraft because there must be some dark magic being cast to cause a non-beta tester, and as yet un-zionized customer (@flotntoke) to stick his neck out & publically air his views regarding the behaviour of fellow F.Cers. While also allowing RBT the freedom to organically bring his ideas & designs into production at a pace that is ultimately determined by the process itself.

IMO, some people deserve more credit than they are given. And others should use their power of foresight to enable them to see that sometimes in life we need to make allowances, and maybe even take percieved risks to achieve the greatest of rewards.

But I guess that is not the path for everyone.

:2c:

And @YungLeaner - yes! The Zion is definitely dry hit heaven, in my humble opinion, too. So much clean flavor.

. . . . But then it's also awesome fun through water . . . . :rolleyes:

Aw, don't ya just love these kind of Sundays? Oh wait, what? It's Friday?!! :doh:


Bless.
:peace:
 

vaporvaper

Well-Known Member
Just wanted to clear something up here.... I've been patient and have added to the "be patient" discussion here and I don't have my Zion yet, either. From what you say, we probably ordered at about the same time. This is the way it normally goes with new, not fully vetted or tweaked vapes. Check FC for many similar situations (and quite a few worse ones!) if you haven't, yet And, if you didn't before you purchased, shame on you!

Since we ordered around the same time, I'm guessing we both probably got about the same lower introductory price. October was the posted expected date, but that was a perfect world estimate (same as usual with anything - vape or otherwise). Again, if someone doesn't get how this works, they probably shouldn't purchase like this. Always an option to wait for the point in the process where you order and it ships within 48 hours, though you won't get the same introductory prices. In my view, you & I have been paid (with the discount) to sit back and wait until it's ready and shipped. So yeah... that means waiting as long as it takes. If anyone isn't OK with that, wait till it is in full production. The middle option - getting a refund because you don't like waiting - has been offered for quite some time. More so, and pushed by RBT more so than in most other cases I've seen.

Don't mean to take it out on you specifically, but it irks me to come to the thread to read about the vape, where things may be in production, and other such things that are supposed to be the topics of any thread - and have to skim through a bunch of bitching and griping from someone who got into something they didn't understand or have changed their mind about. Talking about when you ordered, and when you receive (or get an email) is different - and valid info, but coming here to vent is a whole different thing.

If people can't put on their big boy (or big girl) pants, maybe they should take their refund and come back in a few months. Or, learn how to enjoy the vapes they already have while they wait, and enjoy the Zion that much more when it lands on your doorstep. If that's too much, maybe create a thread where you can have an online support group/pity party and all piss and moan together. But please, for the love of God, stop whining here! Not only is it annoying to troll through for the rest of us, IMO it really reflects poorly on the posters and makes me wonder why they're here instead of grasscity or reddit.

HAHAHA-Whatever mate.
 

Madcap79

Jack of all trades, master of none.
@Madcap79 could you clarify what you are speaking about in regards to the battery connections?

@DieHard I know you use a lot of your vapes through glass. Do you find yourself mostly using the Zion direct draw? I tend to find that it's only the top of the line convection (Underdog Etc) that are enjoyable dry for me. I would imagine the Zion to be on that list, just wondering.
The springs on one side of the battery connections don't spring back after removing the batteries so if you don't rebend them when installing the new batteries, the connection is weak and caused smoke to come out of the power button. In my opinion a flawed designed. Scared the shit out of me. All I can do is speak from my experience and so far it's been meh at best. Again, I hope it turns around. I feel no ill will toward Ryan but all I can do is report the facts of my experience.

@VegNVape
I guess I'm immune to witchcraft.
 

TeeJay1952

Well-Known Member
It is a wonderful day to rewatch The Treasure of the Sierra Madre. A film about 4 friends who have a falling out after they achieve their greatest desire. I waited till Jan to order so you guys could get intro pricing and warranty. I paid full price and got "Gold" package. I want Zion to be a game changer and RBT to succeed. There is a difference from student ordering vape and my Marie Antoinette viewpoint. Room for all aboard Zion train. But this train don't carry no whiners, this train. Do what is best for you but other choices are also correct from their respective viewpoints. I love reports from unit holders. Those of us without units really have very little to say.
I disparage no one. If you don't want to wait then don't piss the punch, get rebate and monitor till you feel things are right. Truthfully, I find waiting to be the best part. All the hope and none of the realities.
Dream On!
 

VegNVape

Increase the Peace
Company Rep
Truthfully, I find waiting to be the best part. All the hope and none of the realities.
Dream On!
Yes! For me too! It's the journey that is often the most thrilling part of so many processes that I have been involved with. So much anticipation - personally, I can thrive on it.

Of course, I LOVE having a Zion physically in my hand - but waiting is a strict discipline which has it's own reward.

And naturally, I always ensure that I have other devices to tide me over in the meantime, otherwise I would just be like :mental:

I waited 15 months for my Hopper, without spouting a word of pointless & unproductive negativity. not to mention the amount of waiting I had to endure as I scrimped & scraped my pennies together to purchase my very first combustion fucking vape, ever!

And now, as I sit here writing this post, gently puffing on my very own Ti Hopper, I feel that my patience along with my willingness to realign my expectations with regards to the timescale of delivery, is finally being rewarded.

None of it came easy. But what does? All I know is that playing the long game paid off.

And now I'm a feckin fanboy!

**EDIT**
@VegNVape You was sayin I'm not a beta tester an I don't even have my Zion yet.

Well...THAT'S THE WHOLE POINT.

Cos if I "had" my Zion I wouldn't be saying what I'm saying...Right? LOL
Lol indeed. Dude, I actually thought that I had made it pretty clear - I was referring to @flotntoke, not you. Sorry for your confusion ;)


:peace:
 
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little maggie

Well-Known Member
Just want to add that Madcap and I were in the first group to order- way back when first announced and neither of us have ours yet. Or we did but had to send our back.
I can't do much to speed up the process but I still want a Zion. In the meantime I have other great vapes to keep me satisfied. It will get here when it does.
And I love that some of the inventors are great at communication- George from dynavap is one who comes to mind. But again, I'd rather have a Zion from someone who is bad at PR but wants a perfect product.
I'm done commenting on this thread until there is more news.
 

VapourHaze

Rexcornish on IG, Vaping since '02
Just wanted to clear something up here.... I've been patient and have added to the "be patient" discussion here and I don't have my Zion yet, either. From what you say, we probably ordered at about the same time. This is the way it normally goes with new, not fully vetted or tweaked vapes. Check FC for many similar situations (and quite a few worse ones!) if you haven't, yet And, if you didn't before you purchased, shame on you!

Since we ordered around the same time, I'm guessing we both probably got about the same lower introductory price. October was the posted expected date, but that was a perfect world estimate (same as usual with anything - vape or otherwise). Again, if someone doesn't get how this works, they probably shouldn't purchase like this. Always an option to wait for the point in the process where you order and it ships within 48 hours, though you won't get the same introductory prices. In my view, you & I have been paid (with the discount) to sit back and wait until it's ready and shipped. So yeah... that means waiting as long as it takes. If anyone isn't OK with that, wait till it is in full production. The middle option - getting a refund because you don't like waiting - has been offered for quite some time. More so, and pushed by RBT more so than in most other cases I've seen.

Don't mean to take it out on you specifically, but it irks me to come to the thread to read about the vape, where things may be in production, and other such things that are supposed to be the topics of any thread - and have to skim through a bunch of bitching and griping from someone who got into something they didn't understand or have changed their mind about. Talking about when you ordered, and when you receive (or get an email) is different - and valid info, but coming here to vent is a whole different thing.

If people can't put on their big boy (or big girl) pants, maybe they should take their refund and come back in a few months. Or, learn how to enjoy the vapes they already have while they wait, and enjoy the Zion that much more when it lands on your doorstep. If that's too much, maybe create a thread where you can have an online support group/pity party and all piss and moan together. But please, for the love of God, stop whining here! Not only is it annoying to troll through for the rest of us, IMO it really reflects poorly on the posters and makes me wonder why they're here instead of grasscity or reddit.

The irony runs deep with this post!
 

YungLeaner

Well-Known Member
The springs on one side of the battery connections don't spring back after removing the batteries so if you don't rebend them when installing the new batteries, the connection is weak and caused smoke to come out of the power button. In my opinion a flawed designed. Scared the shit out of me. All I can do is speak from my experience and so far it's been meh at best. Again, I hope it turns around. I feel no ill will toward Ryan but all I can do is report the facts of my experience.

@VegNVape
I guess I'm immune to witchcraft.
Your experience with the vape definitely sounds negative enough to make the experience quite "meh," as you said. Can you speak to the vapor quality? The Z team really seems to believe it's a total game changer in regards to volume, taste and efficiency, and I'm much more interested in tangible discussion of a vaporizer's traits than I am in vague exclamations of witchcraft and genius, which are not "claims" in the sense that they say anything beyond "I love this vape!"

For example, I am obsessed with my Herbalizer. I tell people it's magic, but what I actually mean is that it has the purest convection signature of any vaporizer I have used, which actually leads to fairly variable cloud production based on what I put inside of it. My Underdog is also a convection vaporizer, but the heater core's mass, thin airpath and stainless steel bowls add just enough conduction (IMO, call it radiant heat, whatever) to make it a consistent cloud producer, even with shake. Meanwhile, the Herbalizer will only respond to what you put in it. I have purchased bud that looked very pretty, but once I tried vaping it in the Herbalizer it was clear to me that the aesthetic quality of the weed far outranked its ability to get me high. The Herbalizer has a 10 second heat up time (another fact), and has outlived countless drops and water spills--even spills that went down the grate, onto the heating element, and into the vaporizer. The pureness of its convection heating means that it works much better with the fan on + an inhale when working with a water pipe or bubbler, because the weed is truly only heated by the draw of halogen-heated air over the weed. I wouldn't even recommend the Herbalizer to someone in an illegal state, because lower quality buds do not shine through it--while in a conduction vape like my Boundless CFX, pretty much anything I throw in there will give me clouds. I loved the Cloud Evo for different reasons. It, too, has fairly pure convection, especially with a cold ELB, but IMO a lot of the reason for the cloud production is the slight tinge of conduction from a hot ELB that really milks water pipes, mixed with intensely flavorful convection vapor. I don't even use the Evo anymore because it was VERY consistently getting me WAY too medicated! I'm a young person who is trying to use cannabis responsibly while progressing professionally (I'm a short story writer), and the Evo's vape signature and huge hit capabilities are actually far too powerful for anything beyond night time or weekend usage.

Anyways, my main point is that this thread's derailing into absurd arguments over shipping, the personality of someone that I have never met, and the quality of a vaporizer only 10 people have seen is as much on the testers as it is on the complainers, who have reason to be upset even if they are not voicing their concerns with much respect or decorum.

Testers: Can we have some cold, hard, FACTS about the Zion? I know it's supposed to be amazing, I believe that it's amazing...but no one seems to want to explain why I should be so excited by RBT's technology that it's worth waiting a year for. I recognize that the heater design is patented, but there has to be something more technical you can give us than porn shoots (which I <3) and assurances that once we try it we, too, will be blown away.

IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ THE FULL POST: There's a lot of vaporizers out there and a lot of them work very well. I don't get why we (potential pre-orders who are watching the drama and trying to figure out what to do) can't get some technical explanation of why it's better than anything else. I'm not just open to a game-changing vape, I'm wide open. It makes my mouth water to hear experienced vaporists talk like this. But can't you tell us anything? Airflow construction, something about the speed at which the heater reaches critical mass, the way that the placement of the bowl affects vapor production. I'm a proud fanboy of my favorite vapes and I totally understand the desire to say "This thing is fucking sick, you MUST BUY IT." But I have that reaction nearly every time I purchase a new vape. WHAT is it about the Zion that makes it so good? I think that a breakdown--even a few words, or a traditional-style review from the Z-team--would do a whole world of good for the company, the people waiting, and the people who are riding the fence about the Zion. It's honestly just hard to believe all of the positive claims without something to back it up. Seibo runs a much larger company in VXL, but he managed to pull off a turnaround from near bankruptcy and has explained in great detail the way that turbulence in the Evo = huge vape production. So give us some facts. Please, anything! I've read this entire thread, most of the posts more than once, and I know about as much about the Zion as I did when the thread was made a year ago.

EDIT: or at least some type of admission that you guys aren't allowed to discuss technical details, which would be a mistake on RBT's part IMO but at least understandable. @Shit Snacks can you give me anything?
 
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Farkas

Do you know about the bird?
Your experience with the vape definitely sounds negative enough to make the experience quite "meh," as you said. Can you speak to the vapor quality? The Z team really seems to believe it's a total game changer in regards to volume, taste and efficiency, and I'm much more interested in tangible discussion of a vaporizer's traits than I am in vague exclamations of witchcraft and genius, which are not "claims" in the sense that they say anything beyond "I love this vape!"

For example, I am obsessed with my Herbalizer. I tell people it's magic, but what I actually mean is that it has the purest convection signature of any vaporizer I have used, which actually leads to fairly variable cloud production based on what I put inside of it. My Underdog is also a convection vaporizer, but the heater core's mass, thin airpath and stainless steel bowls add just enough conduction (IMO, call it radiant heat, whatever) to make it a consistent cloud producer, even with shake. Meanwhile, the Herbalizer will only respond to what you put in it. I have purchased bud that looked very pretty, but once I tried vaping it in the Herbalizer it was clear to me that the aesthetic quality of the weed far outranked its ability to get me high. The Herbalizer has a 10 second heat up time (another fact), and has outlived countless drops and water spills--even spills that went down the grate, onto the heating element, and into the vaporizer. The pureness of its convection heating means that it works much better with the fan on + an inhale when working with a water pipe or bubbler, because the weed is truly only heated by the draw of halogen-heated air over the weed. I wouldn't even recommend the Herbalizer to someone in an illegal state, because lower quality buds do not shine through it--while in a conduction vape like my Boundless CFX, pretty much anything I throw in there will give me clouds. I loved the Cloud Evo for different reasons. It, too, has fairly pure convection, especially with a cold ELB, but IMO a lot of the reason for the cloud production is the slight tinge of conduction from a hot ELB that really milks water pipes, mixed with intensely flavorful convection vapor. I don't even use the Evo anymore because it was VERY consistently getting me WAY too medicated! I'm a young person who is trying to use cannabis responsibly while progressing professionally (I'm a short story writer), and the Evo's vape signature and huge hit capabilities are actually far too powerful for anything beyond night time or weekend usage.

Anyways, my main point is that this thread's derailing into absurd arguments over shipping, the personality of someone that I have never met, and the quality of a vaporizer only 10 people have seen is as much on the testers as it is on the complainers, who have reason to be upset even if they are not voicing their concerns with much respect or decorum.

Testers: Can we have some cold, hard, FACTS about the Zion? I know it's supposed to be amazing, I believe that it's amazing...but no one seems to want to explain why I should be so excited by RBT's technology that it's worth waiting a year for. I recognize that the heater design is patented, but there has to be something more technical you can give us than porn shoots (which I <3) and assurances that once we try it we, too, will be blown away.

IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ THE FULL POST: There's a lot of vaporizers out there and a lot of them work very well. I don't get why we (potential pre-orders who are watching the drama and trying to figure out what to do) can't get some technical explanation of why it's better than anything else. I'm not just open to a game-changing vape, I'm wide open. It makes my mouth water to hear experienced vaporists talk like this. But can't you tell us anything? Airflow construction, something about the speed at which the heater reaches critical mass, the way that the placement of the bowl affects vapor production. I'm a proud fanboy of my favorite vapes and I totally understand the desire to say "This thing is fucking sick, you MUST BUY IT." But I have that reaction nearly every time I purchase a new vape. WHAT is it about the Zion that makes it so good? I think that a breakdown--even a few words, or a traditional-style review from the Z-team--would do a whole world of good for the company, the people waiting, and the people who are riding the fence about the Zion. It's honestly just hard to believe all of the positive claims without something to back it up. Seibo runs a much larger company in VXL, but he managed to pull off a turnaround from near bankruptcy and has explained in great detail the way that turbulence in the Evo = huge vape production. So give us some facts. Please, anything! I've read this entire thread, most of the posts more than once, and I know about as much about the Zion as I did when the thread was made a year ago.

EDIT: or at least some type of admission that you guys aren't allowed to discuss technical details, which would be a mistake on RBT's part IMO but at least understandable. @Shit Snacks can you give me anything?

Talk about short stories. :lol:

I kid, I kid..... ;)
 

Shit Snacks

Milaana. Lana. LANA. LANAAAA! (TM2/TP80/BAK/FW9)
I do kind it a little funny when people come in to say things like that, and are then surprised the response is wait patiently (from current lucky owners or optimistic waiters) or get out... You are posting on a public thread, why post if you don't expect or desire a response? What else can we say to you other than a friendly "hang in there buddy" or a spiteful "maybe you should bail" depending on the individual replying and the wording of the post?

This was going on in the Grasshopper thread before anyone even had one in hand, you don't need to be fortunate enough to enjoy the new hotness to see its value and support it, that's where the pre orders first come from; anticipation based on a belief in the end product. Sure a big aspect that drew us here was the collaboration and manufacturer presence that brought to mind some other great threads here (ie UD & HI), but they never relied on pre orders for funding. It is understandable why GH would choose to stay away, and why RBT drifted away, this kind of manufacturer presence is not for everyone clearly. Thankfully there are still people like Dave and George who can do it so well, but every situation is different as are the creators and vapes themselves.

In my (not so humble?) opinion, the only real expectations you can have from the vaporizer industry lies with performance. There are no rules here, particularly with a new company and/or a pre order, so to expect otherwise is foolish given the track record of countless other projects. All we can do here is talk about the product, understably that would mean the lucky few who have it can choose to test in private, as many members here do, or post in public to share their experience along with their excitement or disappointment. For someone who is active on FC, or at least well-read, to expect otherwise seems silly to me.

So yeah, let's get back to talking about the vape itself, eventually more people will be able to do so, with an even more completed product. Watch and wait, I'm sure the next big moment will be @Madcap79 @little maggie and @mephisto reporting the return of their own production Zions. Since they each experienced troubling new issues, their reports will be telling, if they can confirm what the ealiest pre orders (guess there were about 15 or so of us believers who got in way early and cheap) now owners have been raving about all this time. This is the point of pilot production and beta testing, so people who would rather wait for a final product ready to ship at a precise date will have that eventually.
Otherwise... Yeah wait patiently :2c:
 
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YungLeaner

Well-Known Member
I do kind it a little funny when people come in to say things like that, and are then surprised the response is wait patiently (from current lucky owners or optimistic waiters) or get out... You are posting on a public thread, why post if you don't expect or desire a response? What else can we say to you other than a friendly "hang in there buddy" or a spiteful "maybe you should bail" depending on the individual replying and the wording of the post?

This was going on in the Grasshopper thread before anyone even had one in hand, you don't need to be fortunate enough to enjoy the new hotness to see its value and support it, that's where the pre orders first come from; anticipation based on a belief in the end product. Sure a big aspect that drew us here was the collaboration and manufacturer presence that brought to mind some other great threads here (ie UD & HI), but they never relied on pre orders for funding. It is understandable why GH would choose to stay away, and why RBT drifted away, this kind of manufacturer presence is not for everyone clearly. Thankfully there are still people like Dave and George who can do it so well, but every situation is different as are the creators and vapes themselves.

In my (not so humble?) opinion, the only real expectations you can have from the vaporizer industry lies with performance. There are no rules here, particularly with a new company and/or a pre order, so to expect otherwise is foolish given the track record of countless other projects. All we can do here is talk about the product, understably that would mean the lucky few who have it can choose to test in private, as many members here do, or post in public to share their experience along with their excitement or disappointment. For someone who is active on FC, or at least well-read, to expect otherwise seems silly to me.

So yeah, let's get back to talking about the vape itself, eventually more people will be able to do so, with an even more completed product. Watch and wait, I'm sure the next big moment will be @Madcap79 @little maggie and @mephisto reporting the return of their own production Zions. Since they each experienced troubling new issues, their reports will be telling, if they can confirm what the ealiest pre orders (guess there were about 15 or so of us believers who got in way early and cheap) now owners have been raving about all this time. This is the point of pilot production and beta testing, so people who would rather wait for a final product ready to ship at a precise date will have that eventually. Otherwise... Yeah wait patiently

I understand all of your points! I'm not shitting on you, RBT, or even upset in any way. But how is it that no one can explain in somewhat technical detail HOW the vaporizer works so well? I've literally read almost nothing of substance in explanation for why it is so loved, which is odd on Fuck Combustion. Can you just explain your personal theory for why the Zion works so well? ANYTHING other than the word "revolutionary." I just want a real reason to order and wait patiently because as of now I know nothing beyond removable batteries and a ton of pictures of the exterior.
 

YungLeaner

Well-Known Member
:suspicious: How about "trade secret", or "patent pending"?
Yes, those are both different phrases which similarly communicate exactly nothing. I'm not asking for blueprints, for god's sake I just want a little bit of real information because word of mouth is simply not good enough--something I was taught by this very forum, which I came to first because I purchased an Atmos Pen based on user reviews written by stupid people.
 

DocGonzo

Well-Known Member
Being basically pure convection with a very fast heat up time, producing thick but flavorful clouds at a variety of temp ranges, and being relatively simple electronically are all technical details about the Zion's use that have been mentioned over and over by the testers. I've never used one so I can't comment myself, but I'm also not entirely sure what kind of info you're after that hasn't come up in the past 200 pages. It's slowed down now, but there was a lot of discussion of usage and construction over the past several months. The only thing testers have withheld comment on is the heater itself, from what I've seen. There are usage videos, as well. Are there specific questions you have for the beta crew and few pre-orders who've tried it?
 

HellsWindStaff

Dharma Initiate
Yes, those are both different phrases which similarly communicate exactly nothing. I'm not asking for blueprints, for god's sake I just want a little bit of real information because word of mouth is simply not good enough--something I was taught by this very forum, which I came to first because I purchased an Atmos Pen based on user reviews written by stupid people.

Disruptive? ;)
 

YungLeaner

Well-Known Member
Being basically pure convection with a very fast heat up time, producing thick but flavorful clouds at a variety of temp ranges, and being relatively simple electronically are all technical details about the Zion's use that have been mentioned over and over by the testers. I've never used one so I can't comment myself, but I'm also not entirely sure what kind of info you're after that hasn't come up in the past 200 pages. It's slowed down now, but there was a lot of discussion of usage and construction over the past several months. The only thing testers have withheld comment on is the heater itself, from what I've seen. There are usage videos, as well. Are there specific questions you have for the beta crew?
Well, then perhaps it's the tone and I know that the Zion is very simple electronics-wise. But there hasn't been much continued technical discussion and that's a fact. At this point, it would almost be more convincing to hear the issues the Z-team is having which seem to be few and far in between. Are there hot spots when vaporizing, requiring a stir? Does the stem ever get warm on your lips? Does the stem heat up enough during a fairly long session to add a tinge of conduction? Is the airflow wide-open like a 7th floor vape, leaving temperature almost entirely up to the user almost regardless of knob placement? I seem to remember early reports saying that it was more user friendly than that, but that's another thing I would like to know. How does it work with concentrates? How does it work with unground bud? Does the deep bowl placement mean there is some amount of radiant heat being applied to the bud, essentially "pre-heating" it for a good hit, or would the bud be cold to the touch left sitting in a Zion at near max temp?
These are all questions that have been satisfactorily answered in the 7th floor Sidekick thread and it's literally 26 pages long, while 80-90% of Zion user reports have used catchphrases like "Mindblowing" and "Magic." I'm not even denying that the vape could feel magical, I just want to know why and there seems to be a negative attitude towards technical discussion of this vaporizer, even in regards to theoretically non-patented components.
 

IAmKrazy2

Darth Vapor
Your experience with the vape definitely sounds negative enough to make the experience quite "meh," as you said. Can you speak to the vapor quality? The Z team really seems to believe it's a total game changer in regards to volume, taste and efficiency, and I'm much more interested in tangible discussion of a vaporizer's traits than I am in vague exclamations of witchcraft and genius, which are not "claims" in the sense that they say anything beyond "I love this vape!"

For example, I am obsessed with my Herbalizer. I tell people it's magic, but what I actually mean is that it has the purest convection signature of any vaporizer I have used, which actually leads to fairly variable cloud production based on what I put inside of it. My Underdog is also a convection vaporizer, but the heater core's mass, thin airpath and stainless steel bowls add just enough conduction (IMO, call it radiant heat, whatever) to make it a consistent cloud producer, even with shake. Meanwhile, the Herbalizer will only respond to what you put in it. I have purchased bud that looked very pretty, but once I tried vaping it in the Herbalizer it was clear to me that the aesthetic quality of the weed far outranked its ability to get me high. The Herbalizer has a 10 second heat up time (another fact), and has outlived countless drops and water spills--even spills that went down the grate, onto the heating element, and into the vaporizer. The pureness of its convection heating means that it works much better with the fan on + an inhale when working with a water pipe or bubbler, because the weed is truly only heated by the draw of halogen-heated air over the weed. I wouldn't even recommend the Herbalizer to someone in an illegal state, because lower quality buds do not shine through it--while in a conduction vape like my Boundless CFX, pretty much anything I throw in there will give me clouds. I loved the Cloud Evo for different reasons. It, too, has fairly pure convection, especially with a cold ELB, but IMO a lot of the reason for the cloud production is the slight tinge of conduction from a hot ELB that really milks water pipes, mixed with intensely flavorful convection vapor. I don't even use the Evo anymore because it was VERY consistently getting me WAY too medicated! I'm a young person who is trying to use cannabis responsibly while progressing professionally (I'm a short story writer), and the Evo's vape signature and huge hit capabilities are actually far too powerful for anything beyond night time or weekend usage.

Anyways, my main point is that this thread's derailing into absurd arguments over shipping, the personality of someone that I have never met, and the quality of a vaporizer only 10 people have seen is as much on the testers as it is on the complainers, who have reason to be upset even if they are not voicing their concerns with much respect or decorum.

Testers: Can we have some cold, hard, FACTS about the Zion? I know it's supposed to be amazing, I believe that it's amazing...but no one seems to want to explain why I should be so excited by RBT's technology that it's worth waiting a year for. I recognize that the heater design is patented, but there has to be something more technical you can give us than porn shoots (which I <3) and assurances that once we try it we, too, will be blown away.

IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ THE FULL POST: There's a lot of vaporizers out there and a lot of them work very well. I don't get why we (potential pre-orders who are watching the drama and trying to figure out what to do) can't get some technical explanation of why it's better than anything else. I'm not just open to a game-changing vape, I'm wide open. It makes my mouth water to hear experienced vaporists talk like this. But can't you tell us anything? Airflow construction, something about the speed at which the heater reaches critical mass, the way that the placement of the bowl affects vapor production. I'm a proud fanboy of my favorite vapes and I totally understand the desire to say "This thing is fucking sick, you MUST BUY IT." But I have that reaction nearly every time I purchase a new vape. WHAT is it about the Zion that makes it so good? I think that a breakdown--even a few words, or a traditional-style review from the Z-team--would do a whole world of good for the company, the people waiting, and the people who are riding the fence about the Zion. It's honestly just hard to believe all of the positive claims without something to back it up. Seibo runs a much larger company in VXL, but he managed to pull off a turnaround from near bankruptcy and has explained in great detail the way that turbulence in the Evo = huge vape production. So give us some facts. Please, anything! I've read this entire thread, most of the posts more than once, and I know about as much about the Zion as I did when the thread was made a year ago.

EDIT: or at least some type of admission that you guys aren't allowed to discuss technical details, which would be a mistake on RBT's part IMO but at least understandable. @Shit Snacks can you give me anything?

Well written post, although a novel. Just one correction, you mentioned only 10 people have tried the Zion. I alone have let more than 20 people try it with overall excellent feedback. Just a correction, but the fact that there is only a handful of units in the wild is certainly true. I understand the wait has been painfully slow for some. I also am a paying customer with a very early Zion order, so i can understand where some would have frustrations. Concerns. Ect.

Back to the herbie part of your post. Herbalizer is an excellent vape. One of the best. I own one, so does stickstones, and maybe some other beta testers. I just started using Herbie again occasionally, and you just can't beat that consistency. Cleaning screens is the only thing you need to do to get the same results every time. But IMO it isn't perfect. No vape is.

The Zion is more like the manual pure convection portable vs the Herbie being a automatic pure convection non portable. Similar vapor signatures. I would beg to say zero conduction with both vapes under normal usage. The Zion isn't as automatic and easy to use. I would even venture to say the Zion may be difficult for a first time vaporist to master, like many of the torch powered vapes. Reason is, there is a ton of power and it comes very quickly. The short glass vapor path and thick ass vapor provide potential for more or better taste IMO. The Zion is also much better at vaping nug chunks IMO and i don't worry about dislodging the screen like i do with herbie when breaking down a chunk mid session.

You seem to want to know what makes the Zion special from a technical standpoint. It is speed, pure convection, in a size that will fit in your pocket, battery powered, with the power to boot. Having that top end power won't be for everyone, but i would rather need it and not have it then have it and not need it.

Edit. @YungLeaner. I read your most recent post, and just like DocGonzo said it has all been discussed. All the advantages have been communicated, the only thing that isn't out there is what RBT did with the heater to make it so fast and powerful..... I know. Some of the other testers also know why, but in respect of RBT and his intellectual property we just don't snap pictures of the heater itself or discuss its construction beyond materials used in its construction. Enough said.
 
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GTAVaper

Well-Known Member
I am guessing that one of the factors that might be helping with performance......which maybe can't be seen in the Zion since it is hidden - but perhaps is in plain view with the Milaana ;) - would be a way to maximize turbulent air-flow over the heater core thereby increasing the heat transfer to the air stream?

I am thinking that maybe the "filter" material at the Milaana's air intake may also help increase turbulence of the air stream before the airflow hits the heater.

But TBH......this is just a wild guess since I've never seen the inner workings of the Zion air intake and there could be an additional factor in the design of the heater itself that has improved things.

The additional mica heat shielding would also help keep the heater core "heat soaked" and able to keep up with the demands of a high airflow.

All these observations have been pulled from reading the Zion & Milaana threads ........and all they are is guesses on my part.

So without giving away any "trade secrets" those are my thoughts on a couple factors that may be helping with Zion and Milaana "disruptive" performance........the very word "disruptive" also suggests high turbulence :D
 
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Madcap79

Jack of all trades, master of none.
Your experience with the vape definitely sounds negative enough to make the experience quite "meh," as you said. Can you speak to the vapor quality? The Z team really seems to believe it's a total game changer in regards to volume, taste and efficiency, and I'm much more interested in tangible discussion of a vaporizer's traits than I am in vague exclamations of witchcraft and genius, which are not "claims" in the sense that they say anything beyond "I love this vape!"

For example, I am obsessed with my Herbalizer. I tell people it's magic, but what I actually mean is that it has the purest convection signature of any vaporizer I have used, which actually leads to fairly variable cloud production based on what I put inside of it. My Underdog is also a convection vaporizer, but the heater core's mass, thin airpath and stainless steel bowls add just enough conduction (IMO, call it radiant heat, whatever) to make it a consistent cloud producer, even with shake. Meanwhile, the Herbalizer will only respond to what you put in it. I have purchased bud that looked very pretty, but once I tried vaping it in the Herbalizer it was clear to me that the aesthetic quality of the weed far outranked its ability to get me high. The Herbalizer has a 10 second heat up time (another fact), and has outlived countless drops and water spills--even spills that went down the grate, onto the heating element, and into the vaporizer. The pureness of its convection heating means that it works much better with the fan on + an inhale when working with a water pipe or bubbler, because the weed is truly only heated by the draw of halogen-heated air over the weed. I wouldn't even recommend the Herbalizer to someone in an illegal state, because lower quality buds do not shine through it--while in a conduction vape like my Boundless CFX, pretty much anything I throw in there will give me clouds. I loved the Cloud Evo for different reasons. It, too, has fairly pure convection, especially with a cold ELB, but IMO a lot of the reason for the cloud production is the slight tinge of conduction from a hot ELB that really milks water pipes, mixed with intensely flavorful convection vapor. I don't even use the Evo anymore because it was VERY consistently getting me WAY too medicated! I'm a young person who is trying to use cannabis responsibly while progressing professionally (I'm a short story writer), and the Evo's vape signature and huge hit capabilities are actually far too powerful for anything beyond night time or weekend usage.

Anyways, my main point is that this thread's derailing into absurd arguments over shipping, the personality of someone that I have never met, and the quality of a vaporizer only 10 people have seen is as much on the testers as it is on the complainers, who have reason to be upset even if they are not voicing their concerns with much respect or decorum.

Testers: Can we have some cold, hard, FACTS about the Zion? I know it's supposed to be amazing, I believe that it's amazing...but no one seems to want to explain why I should be so excited by RBT's technology that it's worth waiting a year for. I recognize that the heater design is patented, but there has to be something more technical you can give us than porn shoots (which I <3) and assurances that once we try it we, too, will be blown away.

IF YOU DON'T WANT TO READ THE FULL POST: There's a lot of vaporizers out there and a lot of them work very well. I don't get why we (potential pre-orders who are watching the drama and trying to figure out what to do) can't get some technical explanation of why it's better than anything else. I'm not just open to a game-changing vape, I'm wide open. It makes my mouth water to hear experienced vaporists talk like this. But can't you tell us anything? Airflow construction, something about the speed at which the heater reaches critical mass, the way that the placement of the bowl affects vapor production. I'm a proud fanboy of my favorite vapes and I totally understand the desire to say "This thing is fucking sick, you MUST BUY IT." But I have that reaction nearly every time I purchase a new vape. WHAT is it about the Zion that makes it so good? I think that a breakdown--even a few words, or a traditional-style review from the Z-team--would do a whole world of good for the company, the people waiting, and the people who are riding the fence about the Zion. It's honestly just hard to believe all of the positive claims without something to back it up. Seibo runs a much larger company in VXL, but he managed to pull off a turnaround from near bankruptcy and has explained in great detail the way that turbulence in the Evo = huge vape production. So give us some facts. Please, anything! I've read this entire thread, most of the posts more than once, and I know about as much about the Zion as I did when the thread was made a year ago.

EDIT: or at least some type of admission that you guys aren't allowed to discuss technical details, which would be a mistake on RBT's part IMO but at least understandable. @Shit Snacks can you give me anything?
The vapor quality was nonexistent because it didn't produce any.
 

YungLeaner

Well-Known Member
Well written post, although a novel. Just one correction, you mentioned only 10 people have tried the Zion. I alone have let more than 20 people try it with overall excellent feedback. Just a correction, but the fact that there is only a handful of units in the wild is certainly true. I understand the wait has been painfully slow for some. I also am a paying customer with a very early Zion order, so i can understand where some would have frustrations. Concerns. Ect.

Back to the herbie part of your post. Herbalizer is an excellent vape. One of the best. I own one, so does stickstones, and maybe some other beta testers. I just started using Herbie again occasionally, and you just can't beat that consistency. Cleaning screens is the only thing you need to do to get the same results every time. But IMO it isn't perfect. No vape is.

The Zion is more like the manual pure convection portable vs the Herbie being a automatic pure convection non portable. Similar vapor signatures. I would beg to say zero conduction with both vapes under normal usage. The Zion isn't as automatic and easy to use. I would even venture to say the Zion may be difficult for a first time vaporist to master, like many of the torch powered vapes. Reason is, there is a ton of power and it comes very quickly. The short glass vapor path and thick ass vapor provide potential for more or better taste IMO. The Zion is also much better at vaping nug chunks IMO and i don't worry about dislodging the screen like i do with herbie when breaking down a chunk mid session.

You seem to want to know what makes the Zion special from a technical standpoint. It is speed, pure convection, in a size that will fit in your pocket, battery powered, with the power to boot. Having that top end power won't be for everyone, but i would rather need it and not have it then have it and not need it.
Thank you :) I really appreciate the effort you put into responding to my post, and your videos are awesome. A portable with a similar vape signature to the Herbalizer really does sound disruptive! I'm not surprised that the flavor is better, considering materials--it's not something that I get too worked up about personally, but a lot of people are against whip vaporizers for silicon related reasons. Do you find that there is an "upper limit" to how big of a hit you can get because of optimal bowl packing? Or can large-ish bowls be killed in just a few hits?
The vapor quality was nonexistent because it didn't produce any.
Ah, that sounds frustrating. Got it.
I am guessing that one of the factors that might be helping with performance......which maybe can't be seen in the Zion since it is hidden - but perhaps is in plain view with the Milaana ;) - would be a way to maximize turbulent air-flow over the heater core thereby increasing the heat transfer to the air stream?

I am thinking that maybe the "filter" material at the Milaana's air intake may also help increase turbulence of the air stream before the airflow hits the heater.

But TBH......this is just a wild guess since I've never seen the inner workings of the Zion air intake and there could be an additional factor in the design of the heater itself that has improved things.

The additional mica heat shielding would also help keep the heater core "heat soaked" and able to keep up with the demands of a high airflow.

All these observations have been pulled from reading the Zion & Milaana threads ........and all they are is guesses on my part.

So without giving away any "trade secrets" those are my thoughts on a couple factors that may be helping with Zion and Milaana "disruptive" performance........the very work "disruptive" also suggests high turbulence :D
For performance to reach the levels everyone seems to agree on, I feel as though there must be some airpath wizardry similar to the Evo's tiered turbulence. And while the mica could contribute to a heat soak, from what @IAmKrazy2 said it doesn't sound like a heat soak would even affect performance all that much.
 

IAmKrazy2

Darth Vapor
You know what... I can probably give you what you want. The true secret to this heater is surface area. This was also discussed previously but really is the technical why factor in how this vape performs so well. Lots of surface area in a small package = magic.

Edit. As far as the bowl size finishing question it is hard to answer. The screen can be adjusted so many ways to make the bowl tiny to giant. But if you really bring the power, and you have ground up material, you could smash a good size bowl in 2 to 4 hits, depending on a lot of factors and if you have the added advantage of water filtration. With these type of hits you would likely want to stir after each puff.

If you leave the stem in the Zion and puff a lot that way the glass can get warm. Especially with the short stem, but IMO you would really have to try hard to get it hot or to really add any elements of conduction to the experience. Again., it is pure convection under normal usage.
 
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jojo monkey

Well-Known Member
Manufacturer
somewhat technical detail HOW the vaporizer works so well

My guess: it has more heated surface than a straight tube

The GH has a spiral in a hunk of metal. I imagine the zion's heater is just an odd shape.

Other than that, the zion is on a dimmer. While the GH has temp control and usb charging built in.


edit IAMKrazy2 is faster than me..lol
 
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