Discontinued The Grasshopper

[vapviking]

thing about the ale went right by me!
sorry @Hogni ...

 

[UnshavenFish]

Where do you get your info?

Here for the most part...

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/lithium_based_batteries

You will notice further down the page it says "Degrades at high temperature and when stored at high voltage"

This is completely untrue. There is nothing wrong with sending out fully charged Li-ion batteries for storage purposes. It has no adverse effect on the cell's capacity.

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

Table 3 shows that storing at full charge has an adverse effect on cells capacity unless I'm missing something.

one advantage of lithium is the fact that fully charged cells can be stored for long periods of time due to their very low self discharge rate.

I understand this but surely only under optimal conditions (low temp and not fully charged) again unless I'm not understanding something here.

Just to add I have stored cells at full charge and they have lost capacity after checking whereas cells I have stored at around 3.8v have showed minimal loss.

Now that said if I'm really not understanding something here please add some info that might help me understand where I'm going wrong.

 

[huk_huk]

This is completely untrue. There is nothing wrong with sending out fully charged Li-ion batteries for storage purposes.

It is, check every source on the internet and it will say like-wise. Storage at 100% will degrade the battery life. And yes I'm talking about Li-Ion

edit: btw I read early in this thread someone asking why the GH shows that the battery is empty while it still holds 30% charge. It's to preserve battery life as well, because going from 100% to 0% will quickly wear the battery out. Best is to use 70% charge only, exactly what the GH does.

 

[UnshavenFish]

edit: btw I read early in this thread someone asking why the GH shows that the battery is empty while it still holds 30% charge. It's to preserve battery life as well, because going from 100% to 0% will quickly wear the battery out. Best is to use 70% charge only, exactly what the GH does.

You are correct but the voltage under load will also play apart, when the hopper shows empty the resting voltage is around 3.7/3.8 but while in the hopper and in use it will be lower than this.

 

[Baron23]

Yeaah, but BTW its called INDIA Pale Ale, not Injun ;-)

picky, picky

 

[Hawk]

It is, check every source on the internet and it will say like-wise. Storage at 100% will degrade the battery life. And yes I'm talking about Li-Ion

edit: btw I read early in this thread someone asking why the GH shows that the battery is empty while it still holds 30% charge. It's to preserve battery life as well, because going from 100% to 0% will quickly wear the battery out. Best is to use 70% charge only, exactly what the GH does.

GH should make the cutoff at 3.5-3.6v. These batteries go from 4.2v to 3.7v very quickly and hang around 3.7v the longest. They are wasting a lot of battery cutting it off too early. You could get at least another bowl or more if they did and it would not harm the battery at all.

But the real problem is that these batteries are crap. I am hoping that the new GHB2's are much better quality.

 

[invertedisdead]

 

[Icon13]

Here for the most part...

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/lithium_based_batteries

You will notice further down the page it says "Degrades at high temperature and when stored at high voltage"



http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

Table 3 shows that storing at full charge has an adverse effect on cells capacity unless I'm missing something.



I understand this but surely only under optimal conditions (low temp and not fully charged) again unless I'm not understanding something here.

Just to add I have stored cells at full charge and they have lost capacity after checking whereas cells I have stored at around 3.8v have showed minimal loss.

Now that said if I'm really not understanding something here please add some info that might help me understand where I'm going wrong.

I think you are confusing long term storage at 4.2v (or full capacity) with sending out full cells. Perhaps what they are referring to as long term storage at 100% translates to keeping the cell on a charger long term so that the voltage is always at the peak 4.2v. Under this condition the battery would be periodically trickled charged when needed to negate the self discharge effect and keep the cell absolutely full. Yes, this would result in capacity / cell life issues. Sending out a fully charged cell is not storing long term as the cell will self discharge below full on its own.

Okay, I'll be honest. I exaggerated a bit. The most common practice is to send cells out at 70-80%, but it is not uncommon to receive fully charged cells. Also, just charging the cell to its absolute full capacity is bad for the cell anyways. Sending out cells at 4.2v would still result the cell self discharging over time, thus lowering the voltage until 3.7v anyways.

However, I would not worry about GHL sending out full cells. I also doubt they are 100% full upon arrival. Can anybody can confirm what the voltage is this with a multimeter upon receiving new cells? That is the only way to truly know. My GHB1 charges to 4.15v when full, so a new battery should read 3.7-3.8v because I assume they are 70-80% full.

A fully charged Li-ion cell charges to 4.2v when full. See that disk shaped cap on the positive end of the battery? That is the PCB and regulates how full and how empty the cell gets before shutting down. It is overcharge and discharge protection. So while it may be bad for the cell to charge to the maximum amount that the cell can take, our batteries never actually hit that threshold. Mine is near it at 4.15v when full.

The reason your full charged cells seem to lose capacity is because a Li-ion cell is only at 4.1-4.2v for an initial short spike upon initial use after a full charge. It quickly drops to its operating voltage of 3.7v where it will remain constant pretty much until the battery stops. Other chemistry of batteries have a tendency to lower in voltage little by little until the voltage is no longer sufficient for the device. Think of a flashlight on an alkaline battery. When it is dying the light gets gradually dimmer until shutting off, whereas with a lithium battery it will be at full brightness and stop suddenly. Getting back on track, the reason your full cells decrease in voltage is because your cells have self discharged just past that initial 4.1-4.2v spike that you would see when they are 100%. They will discharge and remain at 3.7v, their operating voltage. The cells that you store at less than full have already passed the 4.1-4.2v threshold and thus will appear to lose less capacity because their voltage will decrease a smaller amount to 3.7v. In actuality, both cells have lost the same % of capacity despite the full ones decreasing in voltage more.

 

[JoeMama]

Here for the most part...

http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/lithium_based_batteries

You will notice further down the page it says "Degrades at high temperature and when stored at high voltage"



http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

Table 3 shows that storing at full charge has an adverse effect on cells capacity unless I'm missing something.

It is, check every source on the internet and it will say like-wise. Storage at 100% will degrade the battery life. And yes I'm talking about Li-Ion

edit: btw I read early in this thread someone asking why the GH shows that the battery is empty while it still holds 30% charge. It's to preserve battery life as well, because going from 100% to 0% will quickly wear the battery out. Best is to use 70% charge only, exactly what the GH does.

Thanks, both of you for helping me put 2 and 2 together...

This is from the above link(s) on discharge/capacity....

It may well be the best design attribute for GHL to not allow the hopper to drain the battery past 50% just for this reason. However, this doesn't square with some reports of batteries losing their stooch after "only" 200-300 cycles. By this table, they should last way longer.

 

[CapitalFlower]

which model do you have?
My Xtar MC2 has no settings, it's got automatic detection and a set charge rate of 4.2V - 2x0.5A

not sure but there are no controls on it.

I don't get how it works, I can charge an AA battery using it until it says it is full. Then I can take it out, put it back in again and it'll charge it for another 15 mins or so. Is this normal? How does it not overcharge the batteries...

 

[UnshavenFish]

I would not worry about GHL sending out full cells. I also doubt they are 100% full upon arrival. Can anybody can confirm what the voltage is this with a multimeter upon receiving new cells? That is the only way to truly know. My GHB1 charges to 4.15v when full, so a new battery should read 3.7-3.8v because I assume they are 70-80% full.

Mine were 4.2 when I received them, and also charge to 4.2 when full, it is a cheap multimeter I'm using but have checked it against a friends (think its a metracal something or the other, I know it was expensive) and it showed the same just with less numbers after the .

A fully charged Li-ion cell charges to 4.2v when full. See that disk shaped cap on the positive end of the battery? That is the PCB and regulates how full and how empty the cell gets before shutting down. It is overcharge and discharge protection. So while it may be bad for the cell to charge to the maximum amount that the cell can take, our batteries never actually hit that threshold. Mine is near it at 4.15v when full.

I thought the little disk on the positive end was just to isolate the positive and negative, and I think the cells are unprotected so don't have a PCB this would be in the hopper/charger, I understand they will have a PTC and CID under the positive end which will disconnect the positive cap due to heat, pressure or current.

the reason your full cells decrease in voltage is because your cells have self discharged just past that initial 4.1-4.2v spike that you would see when they are 100%. They will discharge and remain at 3.7v, their operating voltage. The cells that you store at less than full have already passed the 4.1-4.2v threshold and thus will appear to lose less capacity because their voltage will decrease a smaller amount to 3.7v. In actuality, both cells have lost the same % of capacity despite the full ones decreasing in voltage more.

I understand what your saying about nominal voltage, but I'm talking about actually measuring the capacity (mAh) left, as in ckecking capacity then leaving one full and discharge the other to 3.8 and after a few month the one that had been stored full had lost more mAh than the other, for this I was discharging down to 2.75 (not with hopper cells) from 4.2 and they're were brand new 18650's so both as equal as possible.

Anyway I hope you don't take any of this as argumentative as it's not my intention, just trying to do a bit of that brain learning stuff

It may well be the best design attribute for GHL to not allow the hopper to drain the battery past 50% just for this reason. However, this doesn't square with some reports of batteries losing their stooch after "only" 200-300 cycles. By this table, they should last way longer.

It was mentioned earlier in the thread but it could be that with the cell being proprietary they are not just getting the A grade cells, this could be what the GB2 is, maybe the same cell but with all the duds removed this would explain the mixed reports, and on the chart it says that elevated temp and high current will affect cycle life and the GB's have a pretty hard life for their size.

Also as I mentioned earlier the cell under load will have a lower voltage than resting, the first time I checked the capacity in my GB1 it discharged down to 3v at 0.5A but had started to get very hot so I don't take them down that far now (just measure from 4.2 to 3.6) my guess here would be that HL chose the empty/red light at 3.7/3.8 because any lower and under load it could put the cell out of spec for what is required, you can turn the hopper back on after the red lights and get some usage but the performance is just not there.

 

[CapitalFlower]

Sorry guys I'm sure this topic has been beaten to death, but is there really any worthwhile difference between titanium and ss? Besides the obvious, titanium is lighter, doesn't get as hot and does not get marked as easily. But I've also heard people say that ti accumulates resin/reclaim more readily than ss meaning you need to clean it more frequently... Cam anyone confirm? Is it worth the extra $

 

[moondog]

This battery discussion is fantastic, even if I can't follow most of it. I can add one bit of perhaps meaningless information:

Last night I used up my first battery. I was a hit or two into a bowl and had blue flickers for each of those hits. The next time I turned on the hopper, the lights flashed red briefly and the unit went dark.

Since I was already two hits in, I was too relaxed to panic. Instead, I put in a new battery. First time i clicked, nothing. Second time, red lights and 3 seconds later, blue and 10 seconds after that, nice big cloud.

So it seems like my battery died without giving me the red "battery's dead "flash and the unit went into auto-shutoff standby.

With a new battery, everything was hunky dory.

Speaking of hunky dory, that's how everything seems with my Ti hopper. The threads did get smoother after a Blu Tack/iso cleaning. Although the last turn or two when reattaching the back end seems to get tougher, I'm thinking that's due to contact with the battery.

Anyway, both back ends still staying nice and cool.

 

[GreenHopper]

Sorry guys I'm sure this topic has been beaten to death, but is there really any worthwhile difference between titanium and ss? Besides the obvious, titanium is lighter, doesn't get as hot and does not get marked as easily. But I've also heard people say that ti accumulates resin/reclaim more readily than ss meaning you need to clean it more frequently... Cam anyone confirm? Is it worth the extra $

Read forward from this post:
http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/the-grasshopper.18482/page-509#post-1037755

 

[huk_huk]

It may well be the best design attribute for GHL to not allow the hopper to drain the battery past 50% just for this reason. However, this doesn't square with some reports of batteries losing their stooch after "only" 200-300 cycles. By this table, they should last way longer.

the table is probably not made for a high drain device like the GH which will hurt the battery even more.
To cut off at 50% would suck because of the shortened operation time. No one does that, the cut off is around 15%-30% usualy..

@Icon13 yea it's not that big of a problem that they send em out at 100% because they will naturly discharge. But on the other hand it would be also no problem for Hopperlabs to just charge the batteries to 80% instead of 100%. Still most electronics I've recently bought came with less than 100%.
It hurts the battery more to be stored in a plugged in charger (plugged off is also a problem because it will cause a deep discharge over a long time).

edit: for the record my nitecore d4 switches to 3 lights when they are at 4.17V. They will probably go up to 4.20V if I leave them in for a while after reaching 3 lights. Good chargers will only charge to 95% at max current and then charge with less.

 

[Office_Printer]

Got shipping confirmation from Sneaky Pete today. From what I am reading it sounds like I will be needing more batteries.

 

[JoeMama]

Speaking of hunky dory, that's how everything seems with my Ti hopper. The threads did get smoother after a Blu Tack/iso cleaning. Although the last turn or two when reattaching the back end seems to get tougher, I'm thinking that's due to contact with the battery.

Yeah, the last 3/4 turn or so is kind of gritty, but if you take out the battery and screw it down it will/should be nice and smooth, so you are correct, sir Moon.

Regarding the FEEDER (last post here for reference)
http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/the-grasshopper.18482/page-510#post-1038129

Got mine today... I actually bought two for the convenience of day versus night meds.

Gotta say, I'm not sure about it yet. My first out-of-the-box criticism is that the lid is not very sturdily attached when installed. If you drop this thing from a few feet, there might be herb everywhere. I guess a little piece of tape will fix that.

The other thing is, I can't tell which-a-way to shake this thing to ensure a nominal load.

But I need a day or so to futz. I'll be back on that...

 

[Purple Lava Lamp]

Regarding the FEEDER (last post here for reference)
http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/the-grasshopper.18482/page-510#post-1038129

Got mine today... I actually bought two for the convenience of day versus night meds.

Gotta say, I'm not sure about it yet. My first out-of-the-box criticism is that the lid is not very sturdily attached when installed. If you drop this thing from a few feet, there might be herb everywhere. I guess a little piece of tape will fix that.

The other thing is, I can't tell which-a-way to shake this thing to ensure a nominal load.

But I need a day or so to futz. I'll be back on that...

I also received my feeder today, along with the cases. I feel ya on your skepticism re: the lid... but ya know what, just now as I was typing this I tried several "test drops" on both hardwood and carpet to see if the lid popped off (nothing too gnarly, just a couple feet of the ground) and the lid stayed on the whole time. Like you, I have yet to put any herb in and really use it yet, so we'll see. But I'm more optimistic than I was when I started this paragraph

I'm actually a lot more stoked on the case. I think it's gonna be how I carry my hopper everywhere. The storage for 2 spare batteries, or 1 battery and one little stash, is perfect! The plastic is sturdy, and harder than I expected– feels very solid. The caps look a little janky, they're not really threaded, but kind of are (?) they do tighten down pretty well.

I was hoping that they would be waterproof (because I plan to take my GH on kayak excursions) but they clearly aren't designed to be... nonetheless, I tested them by stuffing strips of paper in them, tightening the caps, and submerging them in water for 15-20 seconds. The tiny little "stash" case (exactly the same size as a GH battery) passed the test with flying colors– the paper was bone dry. But on the larger case, some water did get into both chambers. But I didn't see any air bubbles coming from it until it had been submerged awhile and I was moving it around. I actually think that the case would be fine if it got splashed or rained on, but definitely not "waterproof" ...although, I do want to try looking for some rubber or silicone gaskets that might fit, and try the experiment again.

As mentioned before, the GH won't fit in the case with the silicone mouth guard still attached. However, you can kinda stretch it over the smaller of the 2 case caps, and it stays on there pretty good.

 

[AJS]

I caved and ended up buying 3 brand new batteries. Got my GH used so I've never felt a battery at full potential. I'm excited.
25 bucks for 3 batteries is easy.

Someone said they finish a bowl in a couple hits .. Takes me like 15 lmao. I temp step it pretty hardcore.

 

[slcbdco]

I caved and ended up buying 3 brand new batteries. Got my GH used so I've never felt a battery at full potential. I'm excited.
25 bucks for 3 batteries is easy.

Someone said they finish a bowl in a couple hits .. Takes me like 15 lmao. I temp step it pretty hardcore.

I'm usually on the temp step train also, and yeah between 6-10 hits per bowl

 

[AJS]

I'm usually on the temp step train also, and yeah between 6-10 hits per bowl

I'd say I do about 3 hits on 2, 3 hits on 2.5, couple on 3, 3.5 is the happy medium to chill at, 1 or 2 hits at 4-4.5 to finish it off.

 

[CapitalFlower]

Do you guys have to pay for shipping when sending it back to HL for repair?

I'm in the UK and I've got a GH waiting for me at the post office pending a large customs charge. If I don't pay it they'll send it back to HL.

I'm considering just letting the send it back and then buying one from the UK off Vapefiend, as it will be much easier to send it back to them for return. Also it means I won't risk having to pay a customs charge every time I get a repaired unit back.

Am I crazy to consider sending back my Hopper?

 

[VegNVape]

the GH won't fit in the case with the silicone mouth guard still attached. However, you can kinda stretch it over the smaller of the 2 case caps, and it stays on there pretty good.

Just a word of warning - streching silicone is a pretty sure fire way of causing spallation, which means that minute silicone particulate is shed which can then potentially be inhaled into the body. Needless to say, silicone should not be inhaled into the lungs or be allowed to enter the bloodstream - and long term or excessive exposure can cause medical complications.

Something worth knowing, imo

But thanks for your hardcore testing & 'first impressions' review. Very useful

I really do LOVE the idea, but I just can't make my mind up on this feeder thing . . . think I may wait & see how it progresses.

And for some reason, it reminds me of my childhood and the awesome Action Man accessories I used to play with . . . .

"Advance, in single file!"

 

[GreenHopper]

Do you guys have to pay for shipping when sending it back to HL for repair?

I'm in the UK and I've got a GH waiting for me at the post office pending a large customs charge. If I don't pay it they'll send it back to HL.

I'm considering just letting the send it back and then buying one from the UK off Vapefiend, as it will be much easier to send it back to them for return. Also it means I won't risk having to pay a customs charge every time I get a repaired unit back.

Am I crazy to consider sending back my Hopper?

I had to Warranty my purple Ti right out of the box due to cop lights.

I'm in the UK, HL sent out the replacement body immediately and I received it in just over a week.

I didn't have to pay customs charges on the replacement.

However I did pay for the return postage of the broken body. I went for the Royal Mail 'Tracked and Signed' option at about £8. There were cheaper options but I didn't want to risk the chance of the return going missing.

If you were still waiting for them to send the hopper out I would have suggested canceling the order and going via vapefiend but as it's already been shipped I'd just pay the customs. At the very least you should get an extra battery out of it and you are more likely to get the 2.0 Charger cable. I believe vapefiend's stock is still shipping with the older cable.

 

[CapitalFlower]

I had to Warranty my purple Ti right out of the box due to cop lights.

I'm in the UK, HL sent out the replacement body immediately and I received it in just over a week.

I didn't have to pay customs charges on the replacement.

However I did pay for the return postage of the broken body. I went for the Royal Mail 'Tracked and Signed' option at about £8. There were cheaper options but I didn't want to risk the chance of the return going missing.

If you were still waiting for them to send the hopper out I would have suggested canceling the order and going via vapefiend but as it's already been shipped I'd just pay the customs. At the very least you should get an extra battery out of it and you are more likely to get the 2.0 Charger cable. I believe vapefiend's stock is still shipping with the older cable.

Hmm good points. Other alternative is i just pick it up but leave it sealed and sell it... Either or

I like the fact that it cost you £8 to send to them yet they charge $22 to send it to us