The 2016 Presidential Candidates Thread

cybrguy

Putin is a War Criminal
I don't click on Bernie propaganda videos any more. Frankly I've watched enough of them already. In the beginning of the campaign I liked Bernie very much and then over time as I came to see the totality of Bernie's shtick, I found myself disliking him more and more. His positions are facile, paper thin and often poorly researched. Far from being a leader in congress, he has made a career out of being a gadfly and kibitzer and sometimes spoiler. Bernie is good at many of the same things Trump is good at: sloganizing, reductionism, over-simplification, and demonizing some group - for Trump it's foreigners, Muslims, women, etc and for Bernie it is the rich, banks, business, capitalism, etc. I suppose as a youth I would have been on board with that sort of thinking. A lifetime of thinking about these things, a decade in the far east, visits to Europe, varied experience in the workforce have given me an appreciation of the dynamism and genius of American capitalism, flawed though it may be. I am more in line with Obama's thinking about constantly fine tuning, developing and extending the great things of our system; creating a more perfect union. Don't get me wrong, I still think the rich ought to pay Eisenhower era tax rates, but I don't long for socialist revolution any more. Often it seems to me that Bernie partisans conflate the gridlock and stupidity created by the repubs with 'establishment democrats'. They dismiss Obama as ineffectual, but whose fault is that? Only if we stop electing a congress dominated by troglodyte repubs can Obama or Hillary (or Bernie, whatever) move ahead.
Liking this was not adequate for me. I must say my thinking is very similar, without the added experiential knowledge of living overseas for a decade.

Bernie wants to burn the government down, not fix it incrementally. I am not AT ALL interested in tearing the government down and starting over. That is Tea Party thinking, and I want none of it.

Oops, accidentally posted a work in progress. Removed it.
 
cybrguy,

neverforget711

Well-Known Member
I don't click on Bernie propaganda videos any more. Frankly I've watched enough of them already. In the beginning of the campaign I liked Bernie very much and then over time as I came to see the totality of Bernie's shtick, I found myself disliking him more and more. His positions are facile, paper thin and often poorly researched. Far from being a leader in congress, he has made a career out of being a gadfly and kibitzer and sometimes spoiler. Bernie is good at many of the same things Trump is good at: sloganizing, reductionism, over-simplification, and demonizing some group - for Trump it's foreigners, Muslims, women, etc and for Bernie it is the rich, banks, business, capitalism, etc. I suppose as a youth I would have been on board with that sort of thinking. A lifetime of thinking about these things, a decade in the far east, visits to Europe, varied experience in the workforce have given me an appreciation of the dynamism and genius of American capitalism, flawed though it may be. I am more in line with Obama's thinking about constantly fine tuning, developing and extending the great things of our system; creating a more perfect union. Don't get me wrong, I still think the rich ought to pay Eisenhower era tax rates, but I don't long for socialist revolution any more. Often it seems to me that Bernie partisans conflate the gridlock and stupidity created by the repubs with 'establishment democrats'. They dismiss Obama as ineffectual, but whose fault is that? Only if we stop electing a congress dominated by troglodyte repubs can Obama or Hillary (or Bernie, whatever) move ahead.

It converges like a horseshoe, it's branding to the entrepreneur and propaganda to the socialist but the net result is the same.
 

thisperson

Ruler of all things person
I don't click on Bernie propaganda videos any more. Frankly I've watched enough of them already. In the beginning of the campaign I liked Bernie very much and then over time as I came to see the totality of Bernie's shtick, I found myself disliking him more and more. His positions are facile, paper thin and often poorly researched. Far from being a leader in congress, he has made a career out of being a gadfly and kibitzer and sometimes spoiler. Bernie is good at many of the same things Trump is good at: sloganizing, reductionism, over-simplification, and demonizing some group - for Trump it's foreigners, Muslims, women, etc and for Bernie it is the rich, banks, business, capitalism, etc. I suppose as a youth I would have been on board with that sort of thinking. A lifetime of thinking about these things, a decade in the far east, visits to Europe, varied experience in the workforce have given me an appreciation of the dynamism and genius of American capitalism, flawed though it may be. I am more in line with Obama's thinking about constantly fine tuning, developing and extending the great things of our system; creating a more perfect union. Don't get me wrong, I still think the rich ought to pay Eisenhower era tax rates, but I don't long for socialist revolution any more. Often it seems to me that Bernie partisans conflate the gridlock and stupidity created by the repubs with 'establishment democrats'. They dismiss Obama as ineffectual, but whose fault is that? Only if we stop electing a congress dominated by troglodyte repubs can Obama or Hillary (or Bernie, whatever) move ahead.

I don't know what you call trading sub-prime mortgages and causing a loss of some 4 trillion in pensions and retirement funds. But I'd say when those guys are at the steering wheel it's bad. Bernie's policies might seem like a knee jerk reaction and ill-researched if you haven't seen the happiness indexes of populations like the Nordic Capitalist countries. But the things he's talking about are basic social tenets in many a nation.

The facile paper thing and poorly researched comment is an opinion. He is the Amendment King in congress. Sounds to me like he knows how to get things through.

Bernie doesn't want to get rid of Capitalism. He's not a full blown socialist. He doesn't think the grocery down the street should be socially owned and run. He says this himself.

It's easy to say that it's sloganizing, but slogans are only made when they reverberate with people, I would call it truth telling. I don't see any Hillary Clinton phrases that have stuck particularly well with the population.

Edit: It's 3.4 trillion in retirements lost according to PBS.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/article/how-much-did-the-financial-crisis-cost/
 
Last edited:

CarolKing

Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
Donald Trump had accepted a debate with Bernie but I just heard he changed his mind. He probably wouldnt do very well, I'm assuming. He would also bump up Bernie's numbers and popularity.

Trump continually changes his mind over things. Not a good trait in a president. He's too indecisive among a lot of other unfavorable tendancies.

I was looking forward to the Bernie Trump/Debate, bummer. Bernie said, "Mr. Trump what are you afraid of?"

Edit
Bernie is on Bill Maher. He said he would have loved debating Donald Trump. He said "he keeps changing his mind. Maybe he'll change his mind a fifth time." He called him a compulsive liar. He's not held accountable for anything.

We are proud of American diversity. Most people aren't happy with him attacking Muslims and Mexicans.
 
Last edited:

Farid

Well-Known Member
I find the meme that Bernie supporters are just millennials looking for a handout downright comical. I am only pro Bernie because of my parents. I am not a socialist, and I don't think he has all the answers. That said, my parents are BY NO MEANS looking for a handout. They own two houses. They benefit economically from a low property tax. They know that voting for Bernie will make their taxes go up...

But they also know that by paying more in taxes, their children will not grow up having to rebuild an economy destroyed by neoconservative economic policy.

So whenever Clinton supporters go after the "Bernie Bros" for eating up propaganda I laugh a bit. Especially when it comes from Clinton supporters who refuse to even consider that they could be the product of propaganda themselves, and write off people they disagree with as Bernie bro sock puppets. I'm the millennial in my house, and I'm by far more skeptic of Sanders than my parents are. I support Sanders because he is my father's dream candidate, and because of all my friends from Burlington being excited and politically active because of him. I don't agree with Sanders' economic policy 100% because I think it is too idealistic, but I think the state of the US economy is less important than whether or not we are at war. And I KNOW Hillary Clinton has plans to invade Syria and depose the government there.
 
Last edited:

Joel W.

Deplorable Basement Dweller
Accessory Maker
So whenever Clinton supporters go after the "Bernie Bros" for eating up propaganda I laugh a bit. Especially when it comes from Clinton supporters who refuse to even consider that they could be the product of propaganda themselves, and write off people they disagree with as Bernie bro sock puppets.

This.

With the DNC talking about replacing DWS so close to the finish line, talk about bringing in Biden as the nominee*, the FBI investigating both Hillary (for 9 months?) and her buddy Terry now, the scathing report that directly shows she lied about the server being approved, lied about being hacked, lied about classified emails, you gotta wonder wtf is going on?

I think that she WILL be indicted.

When, is the real issue, as I have read that it will not be until mid summer or after the convention when it's too late to change sides. Tough choices ahead.. :(

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/h-a-goodman/state-department-report-j_b_10160816.html

Edit*
 
Last edited:

CarolKing

Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
I feel anger with the Democratic Party for sticking with favoring Hillary Clinton even though they knew everything hadn't been resolved regarding the emails. Who knows whatever else they find in the ones that she didn't include.

It's such a serious issue but that they acted like it had been resolved. The public is finding out, no it hasn't.
 
Last edited:

Gunky

Well-Known Member
I feel anger with the Democratic Party for sticking with favoring Hillary Clinton even though they knew everything hadn't been resolved regarding the emails and who knows whatever else they find in the ones that she didn't include.

It's such a serious issue but that they acted like it had been resolved. The public is finding out, no it hasn't.
No, it's not such a serious issue. So she used a private email server. Isn't it obvious by now she was trying to use one device for both business and personal email and got stupid advice and used a private server, which was all the rage at the time. So what? You have packaged up and securitized this trivial business like a bad loan and and think this is golden to use against Clinton. It's trivial, stupid and a non-issue.

You are fixating on this triviality but what about the gaping holes in Bernie's policies? Break up the banks he says. How? What size is too big? What are the criteria? Bernie has no idea. Shadow banking? Bernie has no idea. Bernie's rhetoric about the banks is at least 10 years out of date. For a person who wants us to make him president and whose policies consist of little else, this is a disgrace and betokens a breath-taking lack of competence. Did you know Bernie used to answer his phone and pretend to be an aide, much like Trump did?
 

CarolKing

Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
I agree on some levels @Gunky and I know that Bernie is an unknown but I think people at this point are willing to gamble. Not unknown as a senator but unknown as a president. His policies are also something folks are willing to gamble on.

He probably won't get everything he wants. We used to have free tuitions at state collages and universities. So I have no problem with that. I want universal healthcare. Healthcare is a right of any civilized country. There is a real passion for his cause. I was willing to donate money a while back.
 

grokit

well-worn member
The Real Scandal of Hillary Clinton's Emails
It’s not what she wrote—it’s her tendency to wall herself off from alternative points of view.



In a February 23 hearing on a Freedom of Information Act request for Hillary Clinton’s official State Department emails—emails that don’t exist because Hillary Clinton secretly conducted email on a private Blackberrry connected to a private server—District Court Judge Emmet G. Sullivan exclaimed, “How in the world could this happen?”

That’s the key question. What matters about the Clinton email scandal is not the nefarious conduct that she sought to hide by using her own server. There’s no evidence of any such nefarious conduct. What matters is that she made an extremely poor decision: poor because it violated State Department rules, poor because it could have endangered cyber-security, and poor because it now constitutes a serious self-inflicted political wound. Why did such a smart, seasoned public servant exercise such bad judgment? For the same reason she has in the past: Because she walls herself off from alternative points of view.

In the journalistic reconstructions of Clinton’s decision, two things become clear. First, State Department security experts strongly opposed it. As the Washington Post’s Robert O’Harrow Jr. reported in a terrific piece in March, “State Department security officials were distressed about the possibility that Clinton’s BlackBerry could be compromised and used for eavesdropping.” Soon after Clinton became Secretary of State, they expressed that distress in a February 2009 meeting with Chief of Staff Cheryl Mills, a longtime Clinton loyalist. In a March memo to Clinton herself, Assistant Secretary for Diplomatic Security Eric Boswell wrote that, “I cannot stress too strongly … that any unclassified Blackberry is highly vulnerable.”

The second thing that becomes clear is that these security experts ran into a brick wall of longtime Clinton aides whose priority was not security, but rather her desire for privacy and convenience. “From the earliest days,” writes O’Harrow Jr., “Clinton aides and senior officials focused intently on accommodating the secretary’s desire to use her private email account” and in so doing “neglected repeated warnings about the security of the BlackBerry.” In August 2011, when the State Department’s executive secretary Stephen Mull broached the idea of replacing Clinton’s personal Blackberry with a “Department issued” one, Clinton’s Deputy Chief of Staff and close personal aide, Huma Abedin, replied that the “state blackberry…doesn’t make a whole lot of sense.”

To longtime Hillary Clinton observers, all this sounds distressingly familiar. In the literature about Clinton’s career, the insularity of her staff is a recurring theme. In his biography, A Woman in Charge, Carl Bernstein quotes Mark Fabiani, a lawyer in the Clinton White House, as observing that, “the kind of people that were around her were yes people. She had never surrounded herself with people who could stand up to her, who were of a different mind.” In their biography, Her Way, Jeff Gerth and Don Van Natta Jr. quote Clinton administration Trade Representative Mickey Kantor as noting that in her work on health-care reform, Hillary Clinton “got isolated” and worked with “a group of people, all of whom were off in the same direction.” In their book on the health care fight, The System, Haynes Johnson and David Broder quote a senior White House as accusing Hillary Clinton’s aides of having “adopted this bunker mentality … They’ve managed to build wall after wall around the First Lady.” In her book about the Clinton marriage, For Love of Politics, Sally Bedell Smith notes that, “Her subordinates were all true believers, so she seldom heard a dissenting view.” In their book about the 2008 campaign, Game Change, John Heilemann and Mark Halperin note that Clinton’s aides were “loyal to a fault.” In their book on Hillary’s tenure as Secretary of State, HRC, Jonathan Allen and Amie Parnes note that, “Loyalty, for better and worse, has been the defining trait of Hillary and her tightly woven inner circle…She values it in herself, demands it in her aides, and often gives it too much weight in judging the people around her.” “Commenting on Clinton’s current top campaign staff, the former Politico executive editor Jim Van de Hei observed on Friday that, “They are in a bubble where they all have the bunker mentality.”

When she led the health task force in the 1990s, Hillary’s insularity kept her from recognizing that, because Congress would not support universal coverage, the White House needed to embrace more modest reforms. In the State Department, it kept her from recognizing the dangers of using her own email server. Let’s hope she learns from these mistakes. Because if she creates a bubble around herself yet again, she’ll imperil her chances of winning the White House, or of being a successful president once she gets there.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/05/email-hillary-clinton/484634/
 

Gunky

Well-Known Member
I agree on some levels @Gunky and I know that Bernie is an unknown but I think people at this point are willing to gamble. Not unknown as a senator but unknown as a president. His policies are also something folks are willing to gamble on.

He probably won't get everything he wants. We used to have free tuitions at state collages and universities. So I have no problem with that. I want universal healthcare. Healthcare is a right of any civilized country. There is a real passion for his cause. I was willing to donate money a while back.

See everything you say here represents a kind of saviour-ism. The cult of Bernie. Bernie will save us. Let's "gamble" on Bernie. This is the same mistake Trump followers make. Let's plump for Trump and he will save us. For the umpteenth time, that is not how the US federal government works! The president can't accomplish much by himself; it's only as a member of a team that he can make change. But this freaking guy is not a team player. Half the time he is campaigning against his own team. For the last few weeks he has been busy sabotaging the campaign of the candidate we already know has the nomination. How well do ya think he is going to function if we make him team captain?
 
Last edited:

CarolKing

Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
It looks like with a Trump presidency the Vice President will serve an important role. Trump would be like a symbolic figure. Kinda like in the UK - Queen Elizabeth and the Prime Minister. The Vice President would be making the important decisions while the president pretends to be a king.

On CNN Bob Dole just suggested Newt Gangrich for Donald Trump's VP. What a nightmare that would be!
 
Last edited:

Gunky

Well-Known Member
It looks like with a Trump presidency the Vice President will serve an important role. Trump would be like a symbolic figure. Kinda like in the UK - Queen Elizabeth and the Prime Minister. The Vice President would be making the important decisions while the president pretends to be a king.

On CNN Bob Dole just suggested Newt Gangrich for Donald Trump's VP. What a nightmare that would be!
Heh heh, Trump and Newd Gangrene ticket. The moronic leading the delusional.
 
Last edited:

Gunky

Well-Known Member
Hey look a more mainstream take on the Hilary emails.

[MSNBC video]

It's pretty damning from all angles.
What a hit piece. So they play the tape of Hillary saying the private server was allowed and then Andrea Mitchell is asked was it allowed. Well, it was not allowed to leave without turning over all the emails, she answers. But that is a different question from having the server. Having the private server and turning over the emails on it are two different issues, which she conflates. Classic shoddy journalism. She is so misleading it's actually lying. Mika Brzinski has clearly taken this on as her pet peeve and sighs audibly several times. Fuck her. Mountains out of mole shit.

 
Last edited:
Gunky,

thisperson

Ruler of all things person
What a hit piece. So they play the tape of Hillary saying the private server was allowed and then Andrea Mitchell is asked was it allowed. Well, it was not allowed to leave without turning over all the emails, she answers. But that is a different question from having the server. Having the private server and turning over the emails on it are two different issues, which she conflates. Mika Brzinski has clearly taken this on as her pet peeve and sighs audibly several times. Fuck her. Mountains out of mole shit.

Would you rather see it with a Clinton supporter answering for her? It doesn't make it look any better.


Note that she doesn't deny their corrections. Despite trying to lead us down the wrong path.
 

grokit

well-worn member
Deja vu; I could swear I read this headline ~8 years ago!

Hillary Clinton Struggles to Find Footing in Unusual Race

hillary-clinton-thumbs-up.jpg


Democrats could hardly believe their good fortune last month when it became clear that Hillary Clinton was headed to a general election showdown with Donald J. Trump. Mr. Trump carried so much baggage and had insulted so many voting blocs that some Clinton supporters began to imagine a landslide.

But early optimism that this would be an easy race is evaporating. In the corridors of Congress, on airplane shuttles between New York and Washington, at donor gatherings and on conference calls, anxiety is spreading through the Democratic Party that Mrs. Clinton is struggling to find her footing.

While she enjoys many demographic advantages heading into the fall, key Democrats say they are growing worried that her campaign has not determined how to combat her unpredictable, often wily Republican rival, to whom criticism seldom sticks and rules of decorum seem not to apply.

Mrs. Clinton is pressing ahead with a conventional campaign, echoing the 2012 themes used against the Republican nominee that year, Mitt Romney. But Mr. Trump is running a jarringly different crusade...

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/05/29/us/politics/hillary-clinton-donald-trump.html
 

CarolKing

Singer of songs and a vapor connoisseur
  • Bernie Sanders gave very little away in conversations with CBS and NBC about his continued attempt to haul in Hillary Clinton and win the Democratic nomination for president. He did, however, say California is “the big enchilada”. The state votes on 7 June and Sanders is focusing immense effort there, as Nicky Woolf reported.

  • Sanders was pressed on this week’s developments in the ongoing investigation into Hillary Clinton’s emails. He wasn’t drawn, except to say the longer the FBI probe goes on, the better it is for Donald Trump.

  • Nor was he drawn on whether he would be Clinton’s VP. But he didn’t say no, either.
  • Speaking of Trump, reportedly warring operatives Paul Manafort and Corey Lewandowski appeared on separate talk shows to insist that everything was fine.

  • On ABC, Manafort sought to refocus on the general election and Trump’s likely opponent, Clinton – he also dodged a question about whether Trump’s vice-presidential pick would have to release their tax returns, as Trump himself has not.

  • On Fox, Lewandowski said Trump’s attack this week on Susana Martinez, the Republican governor of New Mexico, was not at all damaging given the candidate’s poor standing with women and Latinos – a standing he said was in fact great, which host Chris Wallace pointed out wasn’t true.

  • Lewandowski also said the Trump campaign’s reported lack of organisation was not true, and sought to portray Hillary Clinton’s contrastingly enormous national organisation as a sign of a big-government approach to life which Trump 2016, streamlined and quick, stood against. With less spin, he simply rejected reports of discord between Manafort and himself.

  • We also heard from Arnold Schwarzenegger, once governor of California. What we didn’t hear from him was anything much about Trump. Arnie said he would indeed endorse a presidential candidate, but in an “unusual way”.
Edit
Donald Trump keeps saying Hillary wants to abolish the 2nd Amendment. That's a lie.
 
Last edited:

HellsWindStaff

Dharma Initiate
No, it's not such a serious issue. So she used a private email server. Isn't it obvious by now she was trying to use one device for both business and personal email and got stupid advice and used a private server, which was all the rage at the time. So what? You have packaged up and securitized this trivial business like a bad loan and and think this is golden to use against Clinton. It's trivial, stupid and a non-issue.

You are fixating on this triviality but what about the gaping holes in Bernie's policies? Break up the banks he says. How? What size is too big? What are the criteria? Bernie has no idea. Shadow banking? Bernie has no idea. Bernie's rhetoric about the banks is at least 10 years out of date. For a person who wants us to make him president and whose policies consist of little else, this is a disgrace and betokens a breath-taking lack of competence. Did you know Bernie used to answer his phone and pretend to be an aide, much like Trump did?

I didn't know that about either side, but I would have to say that sounds pretty trivial. It's not like there are rules in place prohibiting what they did? Based on my short research this morning, seems like they pumped themselves up through "publicists" (though I found no record of Bernie doing anything at all similar to like what you mentioned) and while that is pretty unsightly/disingenious, are they breaking any rules/laws?

Just curious. If that is against the rules they should be held accountable. And, if its not, its still not a great look to be doing that by any means.

But you got to cut the cloth both ways. It's not obvious right now that she was trying to use one device for both personal and email, or else they wouldn't continue investigating? And even if so, I've said before, she broke the rules.......hold yourself accountable and stop with the juvenile excuses. You know what happens if I use my business phone/email for personal matters? I get fired! I doubt when I say I was trying to consolidate on one device, that will go over real well with unemployment..... why does Hilary get a free excuse?

Lack of ownership of actions is such a huge problem in America, period, Trump/Hilary Repubs/Dems. Stop blaming everything for whatever perceived shortcomings you're having, pick yourself up, and do it. It's doable, the American dream is viable if you work hard, people need to quit with the entitled attitude that's permeating our culture. (This isn't directed at you Gunky, just a general statement)
 

Gunky

Well-Known Member

I have an instinctive distrust of a man who pretends to be his own assistant on the phone and refers to himself as 'we'. Do you know a single person who calls himself "we" when speaking to someone else? Gollum comes to mind. And Queen Elizabeth. There is something slippery in this, a pretense to a pluralism, a lack of transparency, an unwillingness to stand up individually and a preference to hide behind a fictional crowd.

I distrust a candidate who promises big, big things but whose figures for how he's going to pay for them don't add up, not to mention the fact that these policies are dead on arrival in congress. Fantasy and flim-flam. Bernie's banking policies are particularly ludicrous and many years out of date. Yeah he's great at fulminating against the banks but his understanding of the banking system and its problems seems to have calcified a decade or two back and very few new developments have penetrated. Competence matters.

I distrust a candidate who claims to be above negative campaigning yet whose every mention of his opponent implies not, in the main, disagreement with her policies but rather impugns her character and suggests she has been bought by monied interests.

I distrust a candidate who for weeks and months misleads his supporters into thinking he has a path to victory when he simply does not, who claims the system is rigged when he loses fair and square, who is loudly for democratic and representative election processes when that works in his favor and silent when helped by undemocratic and unrepresentative processes, who wants the rules changed after the contest so he can win.
 
Last edited:
Gunky,
  • Like
Reactions: cybrguy
Top Bottom