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PBW & the Chemistry of Clean

Discussion in 'Glass' started by t-dub, Dec 8, 2012.

  1. t-dub

    t-dub Vapor Sloth

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    Now that you mention it, you're right, regular TSP is known for mineral film deposition as well. I was just reading my PBW container and it says "Excellent in dishwashers to remove stubborn stains from plates, plastic, and glass." once again hot water, short dwell time, hot rinse.

    I think for reasons I chose PBW, like mixing in my glass, utilizing hot water and short dwell times, may make it impractical for an extended soak. Maybe a purpose built liquid chemical that is recycled/reused would be best. Then you could put it in a parts washer with a storage tank and filter as well.

    Film line on my boro took a week to form, and did come off, fwiw . . .
    oldiebutgoodie likes this.
  2. HighlyEducatedScholar

    HighlyEducatedScholar Student of Vapor

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    583
    i'm sorry if this has already been brought up but i can not recall, what is the ratio that you guys use for a piece of glass? a straight tube type specifically.

    i used some PBW on both my water pieces today, the no-name bubbler and my 13" Left Coast straight tube. the PBW did an amazing job with the bubbler but the LC piece definitely still needs another rinse. i used about a tablespoon amount for both. i'm assuming just one tablespoon wasn't enough for my larger piece? :shrug:
  3. t-dub

    t-dub Vapor Sloth

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    Well it says on the jar: "The concentration of PBW depends on the soil load to be cleaned." This is so true. Once you get those pieces clean, they take a lot less PBW to maintain. A tablespoon at a time, per piece, should be more than adequate for an intense concentration until desired cleanliness is reached, then a daily or weekly maintenance dose can be determined.

    Remember, soil is deposited in layers, and is essentially being removed the same way, albeit much more quickly in our application. So HOT water, lots of PBW, short dwell time, HOT rinse, inspect, repeat if necessary.
  4. oldiebutgoodie

    oldiebutgoodie Apostle, Church of Vaporization

    I think this is the best answer to my overnight soak question. My very easy daily or every-other-day Simple Green soak, and then a ~weekly scrub with the home-brew PBW. More or less as I gain experience with it. Thanks again, t-dub. :clap:

    EDIT: fwiw, I'll have 3 lbs mixed for ~$15 total.
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  5. t-dub

    t-dub Vapor Sloth

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    Your welcome Oldie, let us know what routine you eventually like. Everyone is going to be different and its fun to hear everyone's experience. As you guys can tell, I am very impatient and don't like to wait. So for me, everything is about safe, speed (you wouldn't want to drive with me in traffic, its why I live away from people ;)) and I accomplish this by over-leveraging the chemical and hot water flush action aspects of the clean.
  6. Stu

    Stu Maconheiro Staff Member

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    I'm still not having any luck getting PBW to work well on my Mobius Ion bub. :\

    I just gave it it's 3rd cleaning in a row (haven't used it or put water in it between cleanings) and it's still really cloudy. This time I poured 1 1/2 tsp into the perc, fillied it with super hot water and let it soak for 10 minutes. Then rinsed with warm water and a drop of dishsoap until all the soap was gone.

    I don't understand because the PBW worked pretty well on my other pieces.

    What am I doing wrong? :shrug:
    [​IMG]
    :peace:
  7. Tweek

    Tweek Well-Known Member

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    6,142
    My PBW is doing a terrible job scrubbing my glass...from the mail system it's been trapped in for 3 weeks :cuss:

    That looks like soap scum Stu.
  8. vape4life

    vape4life Banned for life

    Messages:
    2,020
    I'm finding that hot water isn't rinsing my PBW off completely. I'm noticing interesting film residue on my glass and white powder ring in my grinder.
    Tweek likes this.
  9. Stu

    Stu Maconheiro Staff Member

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    I may well be. I'm doing an experiment now to find out. First I rinsed it with iso 99 and it looks much better now.

    I'm going to rinse it and put a drop of dishsoap just like I did after the PBW rinse to see if I get the same soap scum.
    [​IMG]
    Stay tuned...

    :peace:
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  10. HighlyEducatedScholar

    HighlyEducatedScholar Student of Vapor

    Messages:
    583
    i was just about to drop by and say the same thing.

    i tried another soak of PBW for my Left Coast tube but still found this white film coating along the inside which i was totally surprised from because i figured i definitely used enough PBW for this 2nd soak. after rinsing it through with just a bit of 91% ISO, my piece definitely cleared up quite a bit. i'm just wondering why this film gets left on after just a 10-15 minute soak period and a thorough hot water rinse.
  11. vape4life

    vape4life Banned for life

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    2,020
    I'm using ISO after my PBW now too. Hoping that this film doesn't occur anymore.
  12. Stu

    Stu Maconheiro Staff Member

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    Location:
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    Continuing the experiment...I rinsed it good with a drop of dish soap and it came out like this:
    [​IMG]
    Looks like Tweek was spot on (pun intended) and it was soap scum from my dishsoap.:doh:

    I then gave it a good iso rinse followed by a warm water rinse sans soap and it came out fine. ;)

    The PBW did leave a film after the first two rinses (no dishsoap rinse after those... so it wasn't soap scum) so I think an iso swirl before final water rinse will give better results for some pieces.

    :peace:
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  13. t-dub

    t-dub Vapor Sloth

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    Stu, if you get the chance some time in the future, would you please try some vinegar (or some other acid) on it? I'm curious to see if it would have a different effect than ISO . . . :hmm:

    Thanks! :)
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  14. Stu

    Stu Maconheiro Staff Member

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    Will do. :tup:

    :peace:
    ogcook likes this.
  15. oldiebutgoodie

    oldiebutgoodie Apostle, Church of Vaporization

    I was gonna wait till I nailed down my routine, etc. but . . .

    I received my (used) Clear Mobius bubbler today. While "clean" enough for most (the seller said it was "perfect, like new") there were small baked on brown resin spots on the shaft and inside the wall. And a faint smell of combustion (yuck!).

    I also received my OxyClean Free (percarbonate) today to mix with my Red Devil (metasilicate). Used a 70/30 mix for my homemade PBW. So gave it a try - about 2 tblsp - in the bubbler with very hot water. Didn't see anything happening. But upon returning 30 minutes later, all the spots were gone! Rinsed with very hot water and then a white vinegar rinse too for any odor.

    Now the piece is "perfect, like new". Crystal clear shiny. No hint of odor.

    I've got another (used) Mobius bubbler on the way which I already know needs serious cleaning attention - but I'm PBW armed and ready.

    Thanks t-dub for putting us on to this. :bowdown:
  16. t-dub

    t-dub Vapor Sloth

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    Your welcome :) Hey Oldie, you have inspired me to make my own since my 1 pound container is about gone. I have a 40 oz tub of oxyclean thats been sitting around doing nothing for years, so I just have to motivate over to the hardware store and get some TSP or substitute, not sure which I will choose, maybe both. Thanks for supplying your mix ratio, I think 2 scoops oxidizer to one scoop TSP(sub) might be close enough to start.

    Cheaper is gonna be necessary if I'm gonna keep putting it through the dishwasher like I am, but the dishes come out so much better, can't go back :D A bulk purchase might be better . . .
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  17. Tweek

    Tweek Well-Known Member

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    6,142
    How much do you put in the dishwasher, T-dub? And is that all you use or do you mix it with the washing solution?
  18. t-dub

    t-dub Vapor Sloth

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    Mom knows best Tweek ;)

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  19. oldiebutgoodie

    oldiebutgoodie Apostle, Church of Vaporization

    The brewers links you posted had both 2:1 and 70/30. I made a 200g batch, put it in a mason jar.

    If you try phosphate TSP I presume you'll first check into possible percarbonate reactions; I'm always extra cautious about that. The Red Devil TSP is 100% metasilicate. Mixing my total net cost is <$5lb.

    I'm using the OxyClean "Free", sans dye and perfume, btw.
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  20. HighlyEducatedScholar

    HighlyEducatedScholar Student of Vapor

    Messages:
    583
    hmm maybe i spoke too soon. my Left Coast tube still has a film along the inside of it. at this point, i'm not sure it's from hard water stains or from the PBW.

    i've done two soaks with about 1 table spoon of PBW for each soak. i used hot water throughout the entire process and last night i did a quick ISO rinse. now i come home today to find i still have that white film/stain along the inside. i'm a bit lost at what it is i should do at this point :shrug:
  21. t-dub

    t-dub Vapor Sloth

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    4,432
    Location:
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    Stu found his was soap film/scum and is testing vinegar right now to see what effect it will have on this situation, can't wait for his thoughts. If you have access to CLR or another type of weak acid you would like to try that would be awesome. What I think is happening with the soap scum, and I am probably wrong, BUT, Stu's pics had a clue for me because the soap scum photo patterns looked static from one to the other. So . . . what I am guessing is going on is we have an invisible deposition layer, probably mineral in nature, that has to be removed with acid so it will stop attracting filth. Thats honestly my best guess right now guys . . .

    Edit: Oldie also used vinegar with success iirc :)
  22. oldiebutgoodie

    oldiebutgoodie Apostle, Church of Vaporization

    Stu, did you ever determine conclusively what the film is from, and most importantly, were you able to remove it?
  23. Stu

    Stu Maconheiro Staff Member

    Messages:
    5,415
    Location:
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    I'm not sure what the film is from yet. I did a vinegar soak for ~2 days, and when I poured it out, it looked spotless (got rid of the 'waterline' stain, too). Then, I let it totally evap (no water rinse yet) and during the evap process, the film returned in full force. :bang:

    I'm going to try a distilled water rinse to see if this makes any difference at all.

    As always, suggestions are welcome.

    :peace:
  24. StickyShisha

    StickyShisha Well-Known Member

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    1,318
    have you tried a "lime away" or CLR type product?
  25. Stu

    Stu Maconheiro Staff Member

    Messages:
    5,415
    Location:
    Southeast of Disorder
    No, but I'll put that on the list.

    I plan on trying a short PBW rinse tomorrow, followed by a vinegar rinse, followed by a warm water rinse. I'll report back my findings (fingers crossed).

    :peace:
    ogcook likes this.

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