PBW & the Chemistry of Clean

[oldiebutgoodie]

I'm not sure what the film is from yet. I did a vinegar soak for ~2 days, and when I poured it out, it looked spotless (got rid of the 'waterline' stain, too). Then, I let it totally evap (no water rinse yet) and during the evap process, the film returned in full force.

I'm going to try a distilled water rinse to see if this makes any difference at all.

As always, suggestions are welcome.

I doubt distilled water will do anything; it's value is limited to eliminating mineral contact so AFAIK it is prophylactic at best.

If it is a hardened soap film or similar, I would try a solvent. Xylene is used to remove industrial coatings and IIRC is safe on glass.

If it is mineral deposits, that can be extra tough. Deposits can react with other chemicals and create a film or scale that must be removed first before you can get to the mineral. I'd try (real) TSP, or maybe Calgon. Or Lime-Away.

Pls do keep us posted.

 

[Tweek]

My PBW arrived yesterday and I have some sparkling glass! That being said, I noticed a slight film as well once I put water back into one of my bubblers. It seemed to line up with where I normally place my water line, so I got to thinking...could this just be a very thin layer of material that has not been removed yet? I recall T-Dubs intro about how dirt builds up in layers, etc....so maybe that is all this "fogging" really is. A thin layer of resin/scum yet to be removed?

 

[Venomous]

To get my film off, I had to mix some clr. Rinsed it out, did an iso rinse, then water rinse. Seems to have stopped the film left by the pbw on my hydracirc.

 

[noserub]

Just catching up on this thread....I never get a film using PBW. I'm wondering if you guys are using a solution that is too strong. I make a min of 1g since I use it on brewing gear and other stuff. But I use between 1-2oz per gallon depending on what I'm cleaning and I generally leave it for a few hours when I'm not using my gear. The glass always comes out crystal clear. I do have really high quality water, so maybe that makes a difference, not sure. Some pieces take longer to clean...but no film.

 

[momofthegoons]

As I stated earlier, the only time I've had any trace of film is when i've let the solution dry on the glass. Very hot water usually does the rick, or another PBW quick soak. I would think maybe you're either using too much PBW or not rinsing properly.

 

[HighlyEducatedScholar]

well i attempted another battle against this white film that is left on my LC tube after two PBW soaks. first i started with a simple ISO wash, shake, and rinse. next, this time i used some white vinegar mixed with several tablespoons of lemon juice(because i figured heck that stuff is acidic on the pH scale) and let it sit in my piece for 10 minutes after a bit of shaking. after a thorough rinse with hot water and drying, the white film returned. looks like the next step is getting some CLR...

Stu, let me know if you have better luck with the curse of the white film.

 

[Tweek]

As I stated earlier, the only time I've had any trace of film is when i've let the solution dry on the glass. Very hot water usually does the rick, or another PBW quick soak. I would think maybe you're either using too much PBW or not rinsing properly.

I ran my glass under hot water for a loooong time. Even agitated and swirled...water was so hot I am surprised I still have fingers. Still see the film. In my case, the film lines up perfectly with where my water line normally rests while everything else is squeaky clean.

 

[momofthegoons]

I ran my glass under hot water for a loooong time. Even agitated and swirled...water was so hot I am surprised I still have fingers. Still see the film. In my case, the film lines up perfectly with where my water line normally rests while everything else is squeaky clean.

In your case, I think you may be seeing residue from old resin. That happened to me in the beginning, before I got my pieces actually clean.

Of course, what do I know? These are just my experiences and I'm not there looking at your glass and a part of the cleaning process. Have we found any common denominators in the people who have the film? Perhaps t-dub will chime in on his experiences and whether or not he has had problems with a film and what he did about it.

 

[Tweek]

Definitely interested in everyones opinions/angles. As long as I am not inhaling PBW in any way, I am ok with a tiny film if it's harmless enough.

 

[stickstones]

I think it is over concentration. I've only done one clean with the stuff, but I noticed the film being left behind in my mouthpiece as the water level slowly dropped (I didn't measure it, but I put what I thought would be too much in it). Luckily, it didn't get everywhere. I iso'd the piece afterward and I haven't noticed any film yet.

 

[Tstat]

Ok, my son soaked his bong for a long time in PBW. It barely touched it. But, he combusts so it was really a mess. 15 minutes soaking in 91% ISO and it was gone. I like using PBW, but it doesn't really seem to do the job on really bad resin.

 

[Stu]

So I did another PBW hot rinse today on my ion bub. Here is the bub pre-rinse:

This is exactly what I did: 1.5 tsp PBW + hot water soak for 15 minutes, followed by several hot water rinses, followed by a white vinegar rinse, followed by more hot water rinses and finally a rinse with distilled water for shits and giggles.

Here is the bub immediately after the cleaning:

Now here it is 90 minutes later after evaporating residual moisture:

The film seems to come back only during the final evaporation of moisture. It's not quite as bad as before the cleaning, but it still sucks that it wont go away.

Thoughts?

 

[HighlyEducatedScholar]

so i bought some CLR today while at the store.

i followed directions exactly as the back of the bottle stated for glassware. i mixed the CLR with water 50/50, and allowed it to soak for 2 minutes. the directions said to avoid 'prolonged contact with surfaces.' after following two cycles of this, the film still came back the same as before.

so within 12 hours i've tried an ISO wash, vinegar+lemon juice wash, and two CLR washes but the white film remains. for now, i'm giving up on this and admitting defeat

 

[Tweek]

Hard water? I dunno, this is baffling...

 

[Nosferatu]

It would seem PBW isn't all it was cracked up to be...

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

I'm getting a film that looks EXACTLY like that, on my Leviathan bubbler, Stu. Only at the top of the mouthpiece, however. Since its accessible, I took a bit of cloth soaked with Iso and had to twist and turn it in there, until it came off. Took like 5 minutes of twisting.

I now do 2x rinse with distilled water, after rinsing with tap... so it's not that.

 

[Tweek]

Have any of you had a chance to feel it? Would be interesting to know if it is tacky or dry.

 

[noserub]

It would seem PBW isn't all it was cracked up to be...

I don't know guys...I've been using PBW for a long time for home brewing with glass carboys without any sign of a film. This is a big deal in brewing and could totally ruin a batch. If a film is appearing, most likely it is not being used with the proper concentration for the proper amount of time and/or not being rinsed appropriately.

Water is very important in brewing, as such I always use high quality water with low mineral content when cleaning as well. I think that people using water with a higher concentration of mineral content (over 150ppm) are going to have mineral build up that may attract a film. Try using distilled or high quality low ppm water.

If it is left to dry on the glass it will leave a film. Do not let PBW dry on glass. I have 6 glass 6 gallon carboys I use for brewing for the last 5 years. I also have quite a bit of vapor glass that I clean without any notice of film when using low concentrations (1-2oz/g) for longer periods of time (8-24hours).

Take my advice FWIW, but just sayin' that strong concentrations for short periods of time with low quality water may be the cause. I don't know the science behind it...just trying to help you guys out since I don't seem to have these issues. Patience is a virtue when using PBW.

 

[Stu]

To be 'clear', I'm not trying to imply that the PBW is responsible for the cloudy film on my ion. I don't know how it got there. I just want it to go away.

 

[HighlyEducatedScholar]

Have any of you had a chance to feel it? Would be interesting to know if it is tacky or dry.

It's dry. I was able to wipe some of it away towards the top of my straight tube where i could reach. Also wanted to say that i'm not saying that PBW is the cause, I just want crystal clear glass. i noticed the white film a few weeks ago and bought PBW hoping it would get rid of it.

 

[BigDaddyVapor]

Yeah, add me to the party of Not Knocking PBW. Its just more of a science, than Iso, Iso/salt, Simple Green, etc. You can't just throw your pieces in and pull them out clean.

Some of my pieces came out flawless. Some, looking like @#$%. The ones that look like @#$%, I know, at least in my case... I need to find the right mixture.

 

[Tstat]

Yea, I'm back to 91% ISO. I buy it when it's on sale and it works great. I think my problem with PBW is not using it in the right concentration. I clean too often to bother with mixing exact concentrations, etc.

 

[stickstones]

I think it has something to do with the water used and the mineral content. That seems to be the unknown variable here given our test environments.

 

[jackmormon]

I don't know if this relates, but I have a LW 10 arm bubbler which is the first piece of "scientific" glass I purchased about 3 years ago. I have always been pretty diligent about cleaning but did use tap the first few months and the bubbler developed a film that looks much like the pics above in this thread. I didn't see the film when the piece was wet, only when dry. I tried repeated cycles of ISO, Vinegar, Lemon Juice, CLR, Lemishine, Grunge Off, over and over again and nothing would touch the film.

I started using the PBW about a month ago and used a teaspoon in the bubbler and an hour soak. It didn't even make a dent in the film.

So.....I used 2 Tablespoons, hot water, and a 5 hour soak. It looks brand new now. The film is gone. PBW did what nothing else could touch.

My theory is the film is built up layers of resin, minerals, and probably proteins from saliva.

Try doubling or tripling the amount of PBW and a long soak. It won't hurt anything!

Rezblock works so fucking well that I can't get a piece dirty enough to require a hard core cleaning nowadays.


Personal thanks to t-dub for spreading the word on two awesome products for us glass freaks

 

[HighlyEducatedScholar]

So.....I used 2 Tablespoons, hot water, and a 5 hour soak. It looks brand new now. The film is gone. PBW did what nothing else could touch.

My theory is the film is built up layers of resin, minerals, and probably proteins from saliva.

Try doubling or tripling the amount of PBW and a long soak. It won't hurt anything!

Hmm, duly noted. i'll have to try a stronger concentration next time i decide to give this a-go.

at first i was thinking along the same lines as Mom suggest, that i wasn't washing thoroughly enough but after long periods of time washing and very very hot water i don't think that is the issue. hopefully a stronger concentration will work.

like i said before, the PBW worked beautifully with my 12-arm bubbler just not with the straight tube so it definitely has a place within my cleaning arsenal.

instead of using up my weekend away from work stressing about the white film, i think i'll just vape for now and relax

i'll make sure to update if i decide to go to battle with this monster another day.