Obama's respons (to the F'ing raids in Cali this week)

[t-dub]

Hey I'm all for getting rid of the military and using that $$ to help people too but it isn't going to happen until the entrenched powers are displaced. The way I see it Wat, is I know my healthcare is going to be rationed. The question is who do I want doing it? An organic marketplace which is the culmination of millions of individual decisions in which I can participate OR do I want government with their bioethics people/panels and distributive justice (see complete lives system) rationing my care. Wat, they are already kicking medical cannabis patients out of public housing. These people are in compliance with state law. What happens when the government tells me I can't use cannabis and receive government benefits? One of my doctors already told me he could NEVER sign my medical card because his malpractice insurance wouldn't allow it. So I have the government, insurance company, bioethics folks and god knows who else between me and my doctor . . . something is wrong. The government interference in our food and medicine has gone beyond regulation and into control. And I'm not buying into this being the Obama admin, I think ANY admin in power would be doing the same thing here. I can totally see Romney doing stuff like this and much, much worse.

Clicky VVVVVVV
It’s Official: Obama Administration’s Public Housing Policy Discriminates Against Medical Marijuana Patients

 

[turk]

...public housing tenants have been the recipients of many abuses....way...way..before obama showed up on the scene...see what clinton did, regean did, nixon..the abuse of the poor in this country is a national pastime...

 

[t-dub]

And I'm not buying into this being the Obama admin, I think ANY admin in power would be doing the same thing here. I can totally see Romney doing stuff like this and much, much worse.

Dude read my post I said anyone in power would be doing this not just Obama . . .

 

[turk]

...point of clarification....I'm NOT a fan of obama's....I'm NOT voting for him...I think he's the latest "apologist for the ruling class"....nothing more, nothing less....but I do take offense when people imply he's doing something either insidiously, or against the norm....he's not....his actions/behavior is completely consistent with the actions of all the presidents before him.....there has been NO CHANGE....which is why....I'm NOT voting for him....

 

[t-dub]

Right there has been no change because the rules are being made from above . . . meet the new boss same as the old boss . . . we have been over this . . .

 

[turk]

...on that we agree....most definitely...not voting for romney either...we need more parties...and less money influence...money ruins everything....

 

[vorrange]

The poor are always the first to feel the ups and downs in economy. This is true everywhere and US are definitly not the worse case and it is also true for a few thousand years.

But for all our evolution and advances, we still behave the same as before, its just the way to take advantage of others for their own profit as become more sophisticated and polished.

Before you had royal families, now you have corporations. As long as money is above life, things won't change.

And in a time of crisis, there is always more regulation, more control, more taxes, in sum, more ways to take advantage of the poor for the benefits of a few.

I still don't understand IMF (international monetary fund) m.o., such country is accumulating a big debt and as such it is proposed they enroll in a loan from the IMF at a certain interest. Meanwhile, because of this eventual loan, the market starts going down eventually causing the need for the loan to be much higher, and after the loan, the interests are still subjected to the markets fluctuations and can rise if the economy falls yet again. For me, loaning with fluctuating interests to a country in financial need is about the same as the mafia does with gambling addicts. It is just a more sofisticated way to rob someone, in this case, a country.

So, if a world fund, can do this at plain sight, and still be viewed as a positive organism that helps those in need, we are pretty much f***ed.

 

[WatTyler]

The way I see it Wat, is I know my healthcare is going to be rationed. The question is who do I want doing it? An organic marketplace which is the culmination of millions of individual decisions in which I can participate OR do I want government with their bioethics people/panels and distributive justice (see complete lives system) rationing my care.

Governments do lots of bad things to poor people, but I'm not really aware of them doing that through our state health care here. I'm not aware that we deny people treatment, no matter what lifestyle they lead, and I don't perceive any negative government influence between me and my doctor- fundamentally the government just give the NHS trusts their budget and design the structure. There are of course continual strong calls from the public and right wing press to restrict treatment of people who are a repeat burden on the system due to avoidable reasons, such as obesity or binge drinking, when people take no measure to prevent recurrence of the situation. However I don't believe that will ever happen as it's against the principle of the service, and where do you draw the line- eg dangerous sports or stupid accidents. It could be argued that's within the individuals responsibility too. No, the principle is that sick people receive treatment, and we have to balance our books somehow in response to that demand.

So of course there are restrictions- I've actually been waiting over 7 months now for a minor cosmetic eyelid operation- we should be all sorted within 3 months is the government commitment, but they fiddled my figures. Because I'm rural I actually had to wait 4 months to see the specialist in my area- and only then did I officially enter the operation waiting list. It's fucked up, but not the end of the world- it's just cosmetic and the system can move fast when it's needed. If I were in the USA there's no doubt whatsoever I'd have been treated by now, but I still wouldn't swap systems.

And there's not actually anything to fear from the decision making panels as long as you ensure you build a good system - it's not a case of handing over controls to bioethicists with crazy ideas- these panels are transparent in their decision making and include a representative range of influences in their membership. You have more to fear it if you let the businessmen get too much control over these groups- which is a constant battle. Nevertheless I do trust them more than the culmination of millions of decisions made by misinformed or mislead people behind closed doors.

In a public system you can ensure enforced transparency over decision making, rather than corporate cover ups and whatever they can get away with. You said yourself you had to argue for over 4 hours on the phone to get what you were owed from your insurer- how many people are just too sick to go through that fight with their insurers, and so don't receive the care which they should really be entitled to? The weak shouldn't be forced to fight. I'd rather that decision be taken transparently according to due process. Even if it means some compromises.

 

[Venomous]

Governments do lots of bad things to poor people, but I'm not really aware of them doing that through our state health care here. I'm not aware that we deny people treatment, no matter what lifestyle they lead, and I don't perceive any negative government influence between me and my doctor- fundamentally the government just give the NHS trusts their budget and design the structure. There are of course continual strong calls from the public and right wing press to restrict treatment of people who are a repeat burden on the system due to avoidable reasons, such as obesity or binge drinking, when people take no measure to prevent recurrence of the situation. However I don't believe that will ever happen as it's against the principle of the service, and where do you draw the line- eg dangerous sports or stupid accidents. It could be argued that's within the individuals responsibility too. No, the principle is that sick people receive treatment, and we have to balance our books somehow in response to that demand.

So of course there are restrictions- I've actually been waiting over 7 months now for a minor cosmetic eyelid operation- we should be all sorted within 3 months is the government commitment, but they fiddled my figures. Because I'm rural I actually had to wait 4 months to see the specialist in my area- and only then did I officially enter the operation waiting list. It's fucked up, but not the end of the world- it's just cosmetic and the system can move fast when it's needed. If I were in the USA there's no doubt whatsoever I'd have been treated by now, but I still wouldn't swap systems.

And there's not actually anything to fear from the decision making panels as long as you ensure you build a good system - it's not a case of handing over controls to bioethicists with crazy ideas- these panels are transparent in their decision making and include a representative range of influences in their membership. You have more to fear it if you let the businessmen get too much control over these groups- which is a constant battle. Nevertheless I do trust them more than the culmination of millions of decisions made by misinformed or mislead people behind closed doors.

In a public system you can ensure enforced transparency over decision making, rather than corporate cover ups and whatever they can get away with. You said yourself you had to argue for over 4 hours on the phone to get what you were owed from your insurer- how many people are just too sick to go through that fight with their insurers, and so don't receive the care which they should really be entitled to? The weak shouldn't be forced to fight. I'd rather that decision be taken transparently according to due process. Even if it means some compromises.

The difference here is, England chose to put all of their effort into a free healthcare system after ww2, not a huge military. Here in the US, we can't afford our military, free healthcare and a dream act to cover illegals. it's going to kill us. Ontop of that, even our paid healthcare system doesn't cover cosmetic surgery on patients unless it affects their quality of life.

Most government aid programs have been picking on its citizens here. Like I pointed out earlier, the illegals seem to get better treatment and I'm tired of it. I'll give the gov a bit of credit here when it comes to our veterans. Compared to Vietnam, our current vets are being treated like royalty, which is a good thing. However, the gov isn't doing much for them when it comes to providing jobs for them.

 

[Venomous]

W

...on that we agree....most definitely...not voting for romney either...we need more parties...and less money influence...money ruins everything....

Which is why a guy like Ron Paul would be good. We need a successful business man to get everything back on track. Also, dealing with career politicians who spend their entire life in congress and senate. The entire gov makeup needs a major overhaul. It's just gone to corrupt and lobbyist don't help the situation with its vested interest to get votes to pass bullshit bills to profit politicians, not the American people.

Banks and corporations have to much power here. Loans aren't properly governed nor are there any good programs to help people invest and budget their money. Look at Enron as a good example.

 

[Venomous]

g.e. paid no taxes last year (look it up )...alll the corp's are paying little to no taxes...the church pays no taxes...the corps are SITTING on billions in profits......they have the money...

60 mins did a good special on this last year. The showed large us companies being headquarter in Iceland.. Interesting, yeah? So they walk into these hq's only to find some young pretty Iceland native sitting at a desk. No CEO, no other staff in the office. They do this is avoid taxes. Citizens pay more in income tax than these companies do, which is absurd. Apple and google are the biggest offenders, Followed by oil companies.Their money is all held up in the euro banks, not the us ones. Nothing is being done about it. Apple who is making a killing by slave china labor and money being held offshore. But the gov is quick to go after my neighbor for $563 for not claiming monies received in 2010...

 

[WatTyler]

The difference here is, England chose to put all of their effort into a free healthcare system after ww2, not a huge military. Here in the US, we can't afford our military, free healthcare and a dream act to cover illegals. it's going to kill us. Ontop of that, even our paid healthcare system doesn't cover cosmetic surgery on patients unless it affects their quality of life.

You kinda can afford it if you choose to. Other countries tax far more of their GDP without their economies collapsing. As I posted earlier the OECD average is 34%, the USA is just 26%. That says to me that there's potentially a possible extra 8% of GDP that could be used to provide something good, like basic healthcare, without the economy being any more heavily taxed than other developed nations.

 

[Vicki]

You kinda can afford it if you choose to. Other countries tax far more of their GDP without their economies collapsing. As I posted earlier the OECD average is 34%, the USA is just 26%. That says to me that there's potentially a possible extra 8% of GDP that could be used to provide something good, like basic healthcare, without the economy being any more heavily taxed than other developed nations.

I'm sorry, but 8% is just a drop in the bucket and does nothing to help the situation as a whole. It's like putting a band-aid on a broken bone.

 

[WatTyler]

I'm sorry, but 8% is just a drop in the bucket and does nothing to help the situation as a whole. It's like putting a band-aid on a broken bone.

??? I can't even work out 8% of $14.59 trillion. How many zeros does that have? lol Not what I'd call a drop in the ocean.

 

[Vicki]

??? I can't even work out 8% of $14.59 trillion. How many zeros does that have? lol Not what I'd call a drop in the ocean.

It is considering how big the problem really is.

 

[WatTyler]

I think state healthcare cost the uk around 8% of it's GDP.

It's pretty rough meaningless arithmatic, but it shows the fact is the economy can afford do much much more. Businessmen and politicians have you believe otherwise, and we all want new flat screen plasma tv's and new vaporizers, so we're as bad.

 

[Vicki]

I think state healthcare cost the uk around 6% of it's GDP.

It's pretty rough meaningless arithmatic, but the fact is we can afford do much much more. Businessmen and politicians have you believe otherwise, and we all want new flat screen plasma tv's and new vaporizers whilst people starve, so we're as bad.

Here in the US it is different than the UK. Maybe the UK can afford it, but the US cannot. It has been said before in this thread, after WW2, both countries took different directions. I said it before, and I'll say it again, it's like putting a band-aid on a broken bone.

 

[WatTyler]

But the point is that you could. America moans about it's taxes, but it's hardly taxed at all- like I said before within the OECD only Mexico, Turkey and Chile tax their economies less than the USA. It's a lie that you can't afford it. As a nation you just don't want to pay for it.

 

[Vicki]

But the point is that you could. America moans about it's taxes, but it's hardly taxed at all- like I said before within the OECD only Mexico, Turkey and Chile tax their economies less than the USA. It's a lie that you can't afford it. As a nation you just don't want to pay for it.

Moans about taxes??? We are taxed to death!! I'm in t-tubs boat, taxed way more than any corporation. If they take any more taxes from us, we will not be able to live. You are sorely misinformed and rude to say what you did. You have no idea how much tax I pay, how dare you say I "moan" about it. Maybe you would like to give up your entire income, but I sure as hell don't. We pay enough taxes, thank you very fucking much!

 

[WatTyler]

Moans about taxes??? We are taxed to death!! I'm in t-tubs boat, taxed way more than any corporation. If they take any more taxes from us, we will not be able to live. You are sorely misinformed and rude to say what you did. You have no idea how much tax I pay, how dare you say I "moan" about it. Maybe you would like to give up your entire income, but I sure as hell don't. We pay enough taxes, thank you very fucking much!

I think you've misunderstood vicki. I'm talking about overall taxing of GDP, not individuals. The fact is the money is there if you look in the right places.

Look up the figures if you just think I'm lying and being hurtful

http://www.oecd.org/document/60/0,3746,en_2649_37427_1942460_1_1_1_37427,00.html


But even individually I'm still taxed much higher here than in the USA, and 'gas' is well over $10 a gallon.

 

[Vicki]

I think you've misunderstood vicki. I'm talking about overall taxing of GDP, not individuals. The fact is the money is there if you look in the right places.

Look up the figures if you just think I'm lying and being hurtful
http://www.oecd.org/document/60/0,3746,en_2649_37427_1942460_1_1_1_37427,00.html


But even individually I'm still taxed much higher here than in the USA.

Maybe I did, but saying I "moan" about taxes was just wrong, and hurtful. I have every right to moan about how much tax I pay and I'll bet I pay more than you do. But, this isn't a contest. I'm just sick of paying MORE than my share in taxes every year. Between taxes and medical bills, we struggle to live on a daily basis, and yes, we have medical insurance. I have to pay cash for some of my prescription medications because it's CHEAPER than going through our insurance. It's fucked up, and I'm tired of it.

 

[WatTyler]

Maybe I did, but saying "moan" about taxes was just wrong, and hurtful. I have every right to moan about how much tax I pay and I'll bet I pay more than you do. But, this isn't a contest. I'm just sick of paying MORE than my share in taxes every year. Between taxes and medical bills, we struggle to live on a daily basis, and yes, we have medical insurance. I have to pay cash for some of my prescription medications because it's CHEAPER than going through our insurance. It's fucked up, and I'm tired of it.

I meant america in general moans about taxes, rather than you, and anti tax is a big part of American politics and campaigning. No offence intended as most individual citizens complain about their personal tax obligations, wherever they're from and whatever they pay.

But your medical bills could be a lot easier if your political system decided to use some of it's collective resources (or that extra 8% taxable product in the economy) to help those who are unfortunate enough to be afflicted with illness, instead of leaving them to fend for themselves or fight their insurers.

We still have the same quirk with prescriptions here; we have a £6 charge for every prescription- I had eye drops prescribed that the chemist told me would cost £3 if I purchased them over the counter instead of with the prescription. I guess your charges are more than £6 ($10) though.

 

[Vicki]

We still have the same quirk with prescriptions here; we have a £6 charge for every prescription- I had eye drops prescribed that the chemist told me would cost £3 if I purchased them over the counter instead of with the prescription. I guess your charges are more than £6 ($10) though.

Yes, way more! Some prescriptions are over $50.00 per month. Some are around $30.00 a month. Then there are the deductibles and copays that amount to thousands of dollars a year on top of the prescription expenses. It's fucked up that illegal aliens have better medical coverage than I do. It's complete bullshit.

 

[WatTyler]

Yes, way more! Some prescriptions are over $50.00 per month. Some are around $30.00 a month. Then there are the deductibles and copays that amount to thousands of dollars a year on top of the prescription expenses. It's fucked up that illegal aliens have better medical coverage than I do. It's complete bullshit.

Yeah, totally agree that's bullshit. But the point I'm sticking to is that that really means that you deserve better support, rather than the immigrants less. We don't need to treat ANYONE in the world worse in terms of providing the fundamentals to life and health than we do already. We don't need to take that away. Enough wealth does exist to avoid this.

 

[Vicki]

Yeah, totally agree that's bullshit. But the point I'm sticking to is that that really means that you deserve better support, rather than the immigrants less. We don't need to treat ANYONE in the world worse in terms of providing the fundamentals to life and health than we already do. Enough wealth does exist to avoid this.

I agree to a certain extent. In a perfect world, all people should have access to good medical care. However, I do not agree that illegals should come to the U.S. and get free medical care. They are cheaters, cheating the system, and cheaters should not be rewarded, in any way.