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Is the Healing in the Feeling?

Discussion in 'Medical Discussion' started by DDave, Sep 16, 2016.

  1. DDave

    DDave Vape Wizard Accessory Maker

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    Was wondering about tolerance vs. medicinal effect.

    Say you've always been able to gain relief for your particular symptoms/ailments/pains by dosing with medical XXX amount of herb. Now let's say you come upon some period of time in which you can indulge. (Even a microdosing maniac may take an extra micro-pinch of herb for a little recreation :brow:). And indulge you do, resulting in your tolerance going way up. For laughs, before the next mega-session, you try a dosage of medical XXX amount. Remember that one? That was our normal sized dose, the one that relieved our symptoms. Well, you vape XXX quantity and don't feel a thing. No head change.

    At this point is where my question comes in. You used to get symptom relief from XXX quantity. So now that your tolerance elevated way past that point, would that cancel out the medical effects you were receiving at the lower dosage level as well?

    :hmm:
     
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  2. Vaked420

    Vaked420 Well-Known Member

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    I think it's a yes and a no. I think mental healing comes mostly from the feeling. I started off using cannabis recreationally but recently I've been realizing how much I've been instead covering up my deep-rooted, mostly pretty mild mental things like minor depression and ADHD. I find that for me the healing is in the feeling so when I do raise my tolerance up, I can't just go back to my previous amount lest I expect weaker effects from the same amount of herb. It is my belief tho that the majority of that tolerance is psychological and not a physical down regulation of cannabinoid receptors. Therefore I don't think users who use for physical effects like pain relief, insomnia etc. instead of psychoactive effects notice as quick or as much of a tolerance build up because for things like that perception is much less of a factor as to how much cannabis you feel in your system
     
  3. TboneToker

    TboneToker Medical Enthusiast

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    I don't think it cancels it, I think it affects it though, because if I were to take a Tolerance Break, dun dun dun, then a tiny little bit of vapor would give me a lot of relief as far as pain and really everything, so yes I do feel it affects it, but I don't think you will ever be able to be as tolerant as some people claim to be, I think much of it is a mind over matter thing and not thinking too hard about it can increase the effects. i find this to be true with many things that affect our minds.
     
  4. cannabis.pro

    cannabis.pro OpenCannabis Advocate Accessory Maker

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    Last edited: Sep 22, 2016
  5. Vapor_Eyes

    Vapor_Eyes tripping off the beauty of it all

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    I agree. I think the tolerance is largely mental and less so for the physical effects, at least in my experience.

    I mainly use cannabis for pain relief. I find my mental tolerance can actually be a benefit, as I can vape more and still remain functional. If I had no tolerance and was dealing with a bad episode of pain I would be way too high when I medicated.

    I do notice some side benefits of cannabis use in regards to the mental effects. I would say that tolerance is a much bigger factor there and it can be a lot harder to achieve the results desired. This is a double edged sword as well, with no tolerance it might be too strong mentally and make dosing difficult.

    I guess in the end I think that having a tolerance is beneficial medically, at least in my case.
     
  6. Creeper

    Creeper deep in the matrix...

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    I am also curious on this phenomenon. I have heard that if you vary up the strains you vape you can keep some of those tolerance effects at bay... would probably fall in line with the mental picture and tolerance that some people have mentioned up above. I have been taking 0.1gm doses since the beginning of the year and have still found them correct for me.
     
  7. j-bug

    j-bug Well-Known Member

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    I want to strongly echo the point about certain levels of tolerance being beneficial. For me there is definitely medical benefit in having a higher tolerance than my partner who medicates mainly at night for insomnia, whereas I need to presently be slightly functional and to treat heavy pain. For me right now I'm consuming more cannabis than I have at any previous point. But the tolerance and the dose is allowing me to be somewhat functional, and with manageable pain levels, where the pain which would most typically be treated with opiates(not very functional for me, and nasty side effects) would itself leave me much less functional. Normally my tolerance is kept comparitively minimal by more moderate and less frequent dosing.
     
  8. ethiastery

    ethiastery Member

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    dude, please do more weed and don't worry about it maybe? "micropinches" ain't helping, obvs. also, the best way to experience weed is by taking days off. period. day on, day off. IT'S NOT EXACTLY MEDICINE PEOPLE, IT'S AN "HERBAL MEDICINE"... most of which are complete bullshit. weed feels good (imo better when smoked, but I vape because my wife fucking hates smoke so I converted and use heavy 300mg edibles for when I want to feel "stoned."

    I vape everyday and can't quit. 1g-2g. I'm addicted and don't care about if my usage goes from "micro" .1g a day to something more normal around .5g a day...but the problem is the "a day" shit. I say I don't care because I was a heavy drinker for 7 years and quit because weed helped me see the light, but it doesn't get you to a 9-10 everyday if you vape everyday. want proof? we all know it...

    weed is "great"

    I also use weed for an extremely F-ed up neck from several injuries. so far, in my life, the mighty @410 with highgrade and huffing about two quick chambers in a row is the only thing that's come close to a joint feeling. that and the Lotus sometimes depending on how "toasted" I make it...................... sometimes on PURPOSE!
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 1, 2017
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  9. DDave

    DDave Vape Wizard Accessory Maker

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    I've been inspired! And it's been a long time..... So how about a DDave Rap? (@SSVUN~YAH , yeah, this may be a challenge! Don't think I've forgotten brother!)

    DISCLAIMER: No offense to the mega-dosers! :peace:


    "Stoners Just Don't Understand"

    You know stoners are the same no matter time nor place
    They don't understand "medicinal" so they're gonna make mistakes
    So to you, all the MMJ Patients all across the land
    There's no need to argue, stoners just don't understand

    I remember one week my mom took me weed shopping
    It was me, my brother, my mom, oh, my pop, my little sister and someone in our car we didn't really know.
    A family outing, I suppose?
    Off to the Weed Market, slowly we drove
    MY mom started bugging with all the freaky strains she chose
    I didn't say nothing at first
    I just turned up my nose
    She said, "What's wrong? This bud cost $2! Who cares about strain, so long as it hollers?"
    I said, "Mom, this strain you chose is a middie with a really odd smell!"
    The next half hour was the same old hell
    My mother buying me strains from any random jar
    And then she lost her mind and left the ultimate scar
    I asked her for Platinum Herojuana and she bought me Marinol instead!
    I said, "Mom, what are you doing, you're ruining my rep"
    She said, "You're only sixteen, you don't even have a 420 Card yet"
    I said, "Mom, let's put these strains back, oh pretty please"
    She said "no, you toke to get stoned, not to get symptom relief"
    I said, "This isn't a Private Reserve, come on Mom, I'm not a stoner
    Mom, please put back the Mexican BrickWeed Brady Bunch flower!
    But if you don't want to, I'll try to live with that but
    You gotta put back the 300mg edible, I'm not looking for effects like that.
    She wasn't even moved - everything stayed the same
    Inevitably my first vaping session went and came
    I thought I could get over, I tried to play sick
    But my mom said, "No, no way, uh-uh, hit that stanky shit!"
    There was nothing I could do, I tried to relax
    I started hallucinating, saw ancient artifacts
    And when I walked downstairs for dinner, it was just as I thought
    My family were cracking up laughing at the strains Mom bought
    And those who weren't laughing still had a ball
    Because they were pointing and whispering
    As I stumbled down the hall
    I finally got to the table and told my Mom how my vaping session went
    She said, "If it's too much for you, then you just ain't a man,
    For the next 5 hours I tried to explain to my Mom, (even used pantomime)
    That I was gonna have to go through this about 2000 more times
    You see she bought ounces of any old weed she could claim.
    When all I needed was little Herijuana for the pain.
    A bit Fire OG for the nausea
    Some Afgoo for the same.
    A little indica before bedtime, yeah that treats me just right.
    Wake and bake a nice hybrid and the day's out of sight.
    A gram at a go, it's just not for me.
    Need to remain in a state of Function-al-ity...
    No matter how I try to explain this to people all across the land
    I've found there's no need to argue
    Stoners just don't understand​
     
  10. Vapor_Eyes

    Vapor_Eyes tripping off the beauty of it all

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    Word :tup:
     
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  11. SSVUN~YAH

    SSVUN~YAH You Must Unlearn, What You Have Learned...

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    [​IMG]
     
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  12. Vapor_Eyes

    Vapor_Eyes tripping off the beauty of it all

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    So here's a question I often ask myself @DDave, is it still microdosing if I pack small amounts but medicate frequently?

    I usually only take one or two hits when I medicate, but I medicate pretty often. I consider myself a microdoser who needs to dose more frequently than most. Maybe I'm in denial...
     
  13. DDave

    DDave Vape Wizard Accessory Maker

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    This may be blurring the lines between Micro vs. Mega-Dosing and Medicinal vs. Recreational....

    Micro-dosing is normally associated with medicinal, and Mega-dosing normally with recreational. However, with all things there are exceptions. Those dealing with great pain may be micro-dosing a .25g dose to get by, when a .5g session may fully treat their symptoms but also couch-lock them. In this scenario, I consider that microdosing, even though a .25g session and it would take me about 7 decades to once again locate Earth.

    For me, it's medicinal while you're treating symptoms. Once your symptoms have been addressed, yet you keep dosing, then you've crossed over to recreational.

    That was a lot to say I think you're still a micro-doser. :rockon:
     
  14. Vapor_Eyes

    Vapor_Eyes tripping off the beauty of it all

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    Cool. I definitely am a medicinal user, I wish I could use recreationally. Unfortunately I have chronic pain which necessitates fairly frequent dosing. I definitely try to only use as much as necessary to relieve my symptoms, which is why I consider myself a microdoser. However, I use more than most microdosers so I wasn't sure about my usage.

    My standard dose is probably .02 grams or so if I had to guess, maybe even less.

    I suppose in the end it's all about what works for you. My usage works for me right now, who cares if it's truly "microdosing" or not.
     
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  15. DDave

    DDave Vape Wizard Accessory Maker

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    Absolutely! :tup:
    I'm a fan of The Micro-Dosing Fad, not to demean it by any means by calling it a fad, but it is a newer labeled method of dosing. I'm glad some can see that they have been overdosing all along and that smaller doses can help with what ails them, plus leave them functional.

    Sounds like you have a good system and your dosage I wouldn't consider all that high.... ;)

    ========== Humor Below! ================

    You know you're a micro-doser if you come out of the dispensary with your weekly batch of meds and it's looking like this!
    [​IMG]
     
  16. rodders83

    rodders83 Contemplator of dual Mighty's

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    I get by on buds i guess but i just get by i guess 3g a week is micro dosing as i vape a lot being an ex smoker so kief is there only for bad days. We cant get oil here so its interesting in the future if buds will dissapear and i might cook with them after kief but im curious if i would not get any more relief but just higher tolerance.

    Anyone made a step up and found more relief in a big way?
     
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  17. Madri-Gal

    Madri-Gal Child Of The Revolution

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    Ah, but continued dosing could be preventative.
    I sometimes wonder if medicinal/recreational isn't the same sort of false dichotomy as mind/body.
    If you are using recreationally and there is therapeutic effects, is it medicine?
    If you use medicinally and enjoy it, is it recreational?
    Can it be all or nothing ? 80/20? 60/40?
    What determines recreational vs. medicinal meducal vs. recreational? Is it having a script , which possibly could be a cover for recreational? Is it not having a script, which could mean a medical user can't afford a card or has an uncooperative physician? Is it a doctor diagnosing a condition and saying you need mmj, with a diagnosis and RX being traditional? Is it having a diagnosed illness, then deciding to use mmj before or never getting a script? Can you be an Mmj patient without a script? What if you are a recreational user, get a headache, vape to get rid of a headache, are you then a medical patient? What if you are recreational, have an undiagnosed illness, self medicate, get a diagnosis, continue using for treatment, were you an undiagnosed medical patient, or did you jump categories? Is having a diagnosis the key? A script? What if you avoid the health care system, self diagnose and prescribe and treat? Do these words matter in a nonlegal state? Only at a dispensary? Mainly online on discussion boards to label what type of user you are?
    If I have, say stomach trouble and medicate for that specifically , and get my script based on that, and I get a headache and use for that, is it medicinal even though not the specific condition that makes you a medical patient ? What if recreation user, get headache, use to get rid of headache, did you switch to medical? What if using for daily medical dose, start enjoying it and using beyond what you need for treatment, does it become recreational ? Does that mean medical patients should use only what they need and quit dosing? Are medical patients more virtuous than recreational users? What if patient thinks it's medical, but doctor doesn't? What if medical patient can't admit to self, or others, that they use recreationally, and beyond what they need? What if recreation user can't admit they are ill, and re also using to treat symptoms? Are recreational users more fun? How do I set the clock on the microwave?
    It's a fun question. People like labels. While writing legislation to legalize, the distinction matters. While at the dispensary it matters as far as tax paid. Are we just talking about definition under the law, or knowing how the legal system has failed in relation to cannabis , are we removing ourselves from that system for definition the same way we don't let the medical system control us?
     
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  18. Madri-Gal

    Madri-Gal Child Of The Revolution

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    Not necessarily. It depends on what it's used for. The head change may change, but the efficacy may not. You can think of the "high" as a side effect. You get used to a medication, and often the side effects get better or disappear, but therapeutic action continues. It can still control inflammation, but you don't get high, for example . If used for insomnia, and it no longer helps, then you have passed the threshold at which it works. It doesn't cancel out the effect, but you need to add to it as you effectively moved the goal post for therapeutic action. Happens with many meds. It can happen without an increase in dosage.
    Ok, so I am not getting this to merge correctly.
     
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  19. VaporWare

    VaporWare Well-Known Member

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    @Madri-Gal I think the only way to put your posts together without being an admin is to edit your previous post and just put what you wanted to say there instead of making a new post in the thread. :)

    I’ve been finding much the same thing. I can definitely get mental effects with a micro-dose, but the pain relief, muscle relaxant and anti-inflammatory effects are much better for me at higher doses.

    For most of this year I was struggling to get the medical benefits I was used to after taking a break and coming back with much smaller doses. I’d use like 0.01g or even less and try to get what I needed out of it, but I’d get less than satisfactory physical results* and often an increase in anxiety or even the feeling that something was really wrong. Like I was having a heart attack or something. I’m pretty sure that was mostly a low-grade panic attack type of thing, but it didn’t exactly encourage me to up the dose.

    Recently I decided I was willing to suffer through what I feared would be extreme anxiety, etc. to quickly get back to a dose that’s more effective for me by just putting at least 10x as much in one bowl and doing some edibles at the same time**. Luckily, I actually had less negative mental effects and more physical benefits at higher doses even without slowly building a tolerance like I’d been trying to do. Edibles or tinctures followed by vapor is the way I usually do it, and for me that generally keeps negative mental effects down.

    For various reasons*** right now I can’t always be as incapacitated as I used to when I went to bed, but I feel like when I need to push the limits I’m much more ready to do it again.

    I’m still a supporter of micro-dosing, and I’m sure I’ll still do it sometimes, but I want to make sure other people who may be in a similar situation to mine at least give higher doses a shot before giving up and going back to more harmful pharmaceuticals.

    *I can get some physical relief from fairly small amounts, but it won’t be as strong or long lasting.

    **When I started 4 years ago it was with good edibles and a full Ascent bowl of finely ground flower (which is a decent amount) just before bed and it kept me feeling a lot better throughout the day.

    ***The other things that are bothering me may have played a significant role in the negative mental effects starting too. For the first couple of years I never had these kinds of issues with any dosage I tried, and I hope I can get back to that point soon. It’s already a lot closer now that I’m not usually micro-dosing anymore, but I’m happy for the people who can regularly get what they need from a micro-dose. :)
     
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  20. Madri-Gal

    Madri-Gal Child Of The Revolution

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    Thank you. I have tried to learn, but it's not clicking yet. I think it best if I stop posting anyway. I don't actually have anything to contribute, and think it best if remain quiet. I hope you are well, and having a feel good type of day.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
  21. BestBuds

    BestBuds Well-Known Member

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    Awesome discussion!

    I consider myself a medical user simply because if I didn't have a medical reason to use I wouldn't. Not that I don't like the effects it's just that I don't want to cloud my mind unnecessarily. It's why I don't drink alcohol for effects.
    I think, for me at least, I look at my bud as medicine and that is what makes me a medical user. If I wanted to come home and get blazed that's recreational. But if I get home from work and my back is killing me, I'm depressed, maybe my anxiety is bad, whatever the case may be, and I vape a tiny bit of bud that's medical. It doesn't matter that I like the side effects of my herb.
    I have been on a lot of medications in my life, and I have had some horrible side effects. Horrible! But they are all gone now. I only have one prescription now and it's a muscle relaxer for emergencies. The negative side effects I get from cannabis are: some brain fog the next day if my pain was so bad I had to up my dose a lot. Maybe some dry mouth when I wake up (I have sleep apnea too) so I think maybe I'm just opening my mouth with my cpap on and not noticing because I'm a little high.
    But that's it for negative side effects.

    The side effects that aren't negative is that I get a little high. Everything gets a little better, movies are funnier, sex is amazing lol, food tastes better. But the fact that I enjoy my herbal medicine doesn't make me a recreational user in my mind.
    So I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's all how you look at it and the hard part is YOU HAVE TO BE HONEST WITH YOURSELF.

    I also don't look at moderate recreational users as bad. Just like I don't look at people who have a few alcoholic drinks as bad. But just like there are people who abuse alcohol there are people who abuse cannabis. Just like anything else.
     
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  22. Madri-Gal

    Madri-Gal Child Of The Revolution

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    There has been so much unjustified judgement about mj users over the years, I don't personally find it helpful to concern myself with whether someone us medical or recreational, or how much they consume. MJ seems more helpful than harmful for most people, unlike alcohol. If someone wants to vape round the clock, I figure it's a personal choice. I don't know if a persons usage is medical or not, and a medical user might need a constant high dose for any number is reasons. So might a recreational user. I don't think a person needs to suffer from poor health, pain, poor sleep to make that choice for themselves . Why would it be ok if a person is sick, but not if they are well? I often see medical users posting about discomfort, anxiety, physical sensation they don't care for, and so forth. They often continue despite this, and I respect that decision. I feel bad for medical users who feel they have to use when they don't really want to. That seems sad. I figure recreational users have any number of reasons to consume, and that is also not my concern. It does make me happy to know there are recreational users, as it means not everyone is in pain or suffering from poor health. It also seems that MJ has uses as a preventative. It would be interesting to see if recreational users end up avoiding cancers, arthritis, etc. by being preventive users. More interesting still if high dose consumers stay healthier than low dose or non users.
    Hard to be honest with myself? About weed? I have no reason to lie to myself about weed. I use medically. I use recreationally. Would I use recreationally if I didn't use medically? Absolutely. I do think it has beneficial properties for health, seperate from treatment of an ailment. I'm fortunate to not have unpleasant side effects beyond dry mouth, and I avoid that by filling my water glass when I vape (and drinking it, of course).
    Would I use recreationally other than for prevention? Sure! Why ever not? It's legal where I live, so I don't have to worry about that. I like MJ. I like growing it, cooking with it, making ointments, tinctures and elixers. I like sites such as FC, and talking to people about weed, the fun names, the flavors, the effects. I like going to the dispensary, and talking to bud tenders, and reading about weed online. It's a nice hobby. I've met wonderful people , and have had delightful conversations I treasure. I enjoy connecting with you now. You seem pleasant, and thoughtful and kind. In my world, the people that use are almost all delightful, and those that aren't, well, it's not the weed.
    I just think how awful it us when a doctor is judgemental about weed (mine haven't been, and are Very Supportive and Encouraging, but others report this) and I can't see being that way myself. I want my decision to use accepted, so I try to accept others lest I be a hypocrite in the matter. For me, the bigger issues is people not having it if they need it, not people having it if they don't need it. My 2 cents.
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2018
  23. VaporWare

    VaporWare Well-Known Member

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    I think you have plenty to contribute! I was just trying to help you out, not make you feel bad. The mods can always merge those posts if they want to, and not too many other people will care.

    The next post you made which mentions all of the different aspects of this stuff you’re interested in shows that we probably don’t hear from you *enough*, let alone too much. Have a good day too, and please don’t let anything I say push you away because I certainly don’t want you to stop posting. :)
     
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  24. Madri-Gal

    Madri-Gal Child Of The Revolution

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    It wasn't you! Oh please, don't think that. I just wrote a bunch of stuff, looked at it, realized I sounded like an idiot then edited down. @VaporWare , you are quite lovely, informative and supportive, and I always enjoy your posts. I'm so sorry if you thought I was quitting because of you. I do get frustrated that the merging isn't connecting for me, and I don't want to upset the moderators. I need my son to show me how to do this, and I'm sure it will be fine.
     
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  25. BestBuds

    BestBuds Well-Known Member

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    Just a clarification. Everything I say, I say about myself. One thing I learned very early is that this plant gives different experiences to each person. So the "being honest" comment was a generalization and more about how I feel about myself rather than me pushing that sentiment on anyone else.
    Also I don't feel I NEED to use cannabis. I have chosen cannabis as my medicine because it's is the best option for me. I enjoy it, I respect it, and don't think me telling others what to do is my place.
    Actually you made a really good point that made me think, in my home state it is legal. So in a recreational aspecte, yes would use herb recreationally like I do with alcohol.

    The best conversations imo are ones that make you question your standpoint. This is doing that for me. I like it! :D
     
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