Herbaltherm 2ZM, Ryan from RBT's unregulated Zion
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sagey
Member
Ryan emailed a long update.
TEAM... the 2ZM is at Risk (Summary and detail below)
Summary: Lack of sales of current products is not producing enough revenue to fund the 2ZM project at the moment so it is on hold. The viability of the project will be assessed again in April.. I apologize if you find this disappointing but I do not have the additional $10k+ required to fund the project (dont worry your money is safe) as it is tied up in inventory that is not selling. Read on if you would like more detail or a refund. Please do not respond to this other than to ask for refund with REFUND in the subject line with your verified PayPal email and your name and order number as I do not have anymore information to offer other than what is below as I definitely do not need any arm chair CEOs at the moment so I respectfully ask that you keep your opinions to yourself (said with Love).
Detail: (Caution long rambling run-on sentences ahead making little sense to most)
SOOoooo as many of you know, I have attempted to start up HerbalTherm over the last year. First was the release of the 3TM, a VapCap cooling mouthpiece resurrected from 2021. Took some time to get that one together but it dropped with some rave reviews. The stainless steel an machining quality are top notch and it was nice to see the logo physically manifest. However, today the vapcap is somewhat old news with much of the community moving over to the 9 mm gear like the Dani and Anvil heavy hitters. Next I dropped the 14DE which is the revision of the 5DD that had the "twist lock" that didn't work so sell so it was nice to give anyone who bought a 5DD a new 14DE at 80% off to say thanks. The glass gap heater tech is delicious! However, other than the close followers there really wasn't much traction and quality issues rendered 30% of the inventory unusable. There really was no appreciable sales at 25% off... and some sales at 50% off (which is break-even) but they soon dwindled as well. I am an engineer but have been learning about marketing. I learned a good conversion rate is like 5 - 10% so ... if you have 500 followers on IG then your sales will be about 50 lifetime give or take for any given "decent" product... makes sense as I hit a well there with any of the products so far and stalled there with the 2ZM until some hype and a grand prize give-away pushed us over the hump. If ya do the math... well it is pretty pathetic.
No surprise that the 2ZM was an act of desperation as the 3TM and 14DE went off like a fart in church. My thinking was if 100 people signed up on the quick and we could get a team spirit brewing that it might ignite some sales of the 3TM and 14DE which is did do to some degree. However, without sales of the current gear I was not going to be able to bank roll the other $10k+ that is needed to make it a reality.
SOooooo, in a Hail Mary attempt to get something going and went home for a month and worked 12 hours days with only 2 day off through the holiday to make the 19DX and the 8RD. A pre-order for them had me selling about the same number that I gave away and manufacturing issues had me make less than half of what was planned... head still up I mailed all the glass back to Cali and headed back to grind the caps and fabricate the screens for the 19DX and ship the few items that sold as the www store was shut down for a month while I was back in NY.
After some quick beta testing of the 19DX with the critical few customers ... thanks guys!... I was just about ready to populate the store and Shopify shut down my credit card processor causing me to spend another few weeks down to locate, apply and secure a high risk bank to allow me once again to take money. In another act of desperation I have started to do auctions on the Instagram but do not expect that to garner much interest.
So, as that as the back story... unless I sell a bunch of 19DX, 3TM, and 8RDs I will not have the cash needed to bank roll the 2ZM effort and honestly given the weak demand for HerbalTherm gear I really don't want to take another risk on a Major undertaking like the 2ZM as it really needs to be a full time job and well... I am broke and really need to liquidate my belongings here in Cali and get home and get a job lol.
This is my last ditch effort... I have samples being made of the 1MT, 1HH and the 5DT... you can read about them here on herbaltherm.freeforum.net as they are kinda neat if you ask me. I should have 10 of each out into the world in the next month. If these show signs of life... if the 3TM, 19DX and 8RD sell then we are in business. If there continues to be near zero sales for what I have today and the same lack of interest for the 1MT and the 5DT then well... I will have no option other than to tap out.
So, for now, the 2ZM is on hold... please rest assured that your money is safe as all I have done so far is buy the magnetic stainless steel and get quotes to make the door and glass hold down plate out of. At anytime you can email me at herbaltherm@gmail.com with your order number, name and address and I can PayPal you a refund. I have a ton of work to do liquidate my belongings and get home to NY in the coming weeks so other than the handful of prototypes for the 1MT and 5DT to evaluate if there is any interest there and selling off what gear I have once the www is back up and running no work on HerbalTherm will happen.
I am not telling you this to pressure you into buying HerbalTherm gear in fact, there are about 4 of you that I feel guilty as you have been 50% of my sales so thanks for all that have supported and please, don't buy any moreI am just being honest with all of you so you can see if from my vantage point of working for the last 9 months full time to break even. I have a pretty big appetite for risk as I torched my life savings trying to get RBT off the ground but at a certain point ya need to pull back on the stick and this is it for me.
If in March you see 50% off sales again that will be the canary in the coal mine that you should soon expect a refund for your 2ZM membership. Miracles do happen but after a decade in knowing this space inside and out and seeing Troys videos from 50K views down to 500... yeh, it is what it is.
Not to say I will not continue HerbalTherm as a hobby again
Time Will Tell and Nothing Ventured, Nothing Gained.
Peace,
Ryan
2pumpchump
Well-Known Member
I seen this as well !
I have sent him an email and currently waiting back to hear from him.
Stonedbadger
Well-Known Member
I've emailed and requested the full refund.
I thought the deposit was to fund this project, the update seems to indicate he was also using this money to fund the other side projects.
Just hope I get my cash back
I thought the deposit was to fund this project, the update seems to indicate he was also using this money to fund the other side projects.
Just hope I get my cash back
vapviking
Old & In the Way
I think you may have mis-understood. He says all the deposit money is 'safe', makes no claim that he spent the money on other projects.
The projects he mentions predate the deposit money he has from the 2ZM. All will get their deposits back if the project does not move forward, and that does seem to be where things are headed.
The email is a brutally honest disclosure of what he recognizes as his failures, from his various attempts over the past couple of years to 'do it all' (be both inventor and businessman).
This one email contains more personal honesty and disclosure than we've ever had from S&B, Hopper Labs, etc., or any other vape company I've encountered. I wish nothing but the best for Ryan.
Stonedbadger
Well-Known Member
Yeah look I like Ryan I have many of his vapes including zion, zion m, splinters ect.
However this line alarmed me
"I apologize if you find this disappointing but I do not have the additional $10k+ required to fund the project (dont worry your money is safe) as it is tied up in inventory that is not selling."
So our money is or isnt tied up in inventory, that by all accounts is not selling?
However this line alarmed me
"I apologize if you find this disappointing but I do not have the additional $10k+ required to fund the project (dont worry your money is safe) as it is tied up in inventory that is not selling."
So our money is or isnt tied up in inventory, that by all accounts is not selling?
vapviking
Old & In the Way
Respectfully, I believe that again you are mis-reading Ryan's email. Maybe English is not your primary language, idk.
Inside the parenthesis (...), it says, "don't worry your money is safe." If you read the sentence without that parenthetical comment, it says, "I do not have the additional 10k+ required to fund the project ... as it is tied up in inventory."
The "inventory" is his other products that are on a shelf, unsold.
He is referring to his own money, the 10k. He was going to use it ALONG WITH preorder money to fund this 2ZM. But he can't use it because he has not sold those items , thus the money (his own) cannot be used on this 2ZM project.
unlessFudlic
Well-Known Member
I find this email, along with many of his exploits, somewhat alarming AT FIRST. What I have come to understand is that he will choose these extreme pivot points to communicate because it helps him work out his plan, which is constantly changing along with his current needs. IT'S EXCITING because like others have said, I missed out on previous incredible project vapes because I couldn't keep up with ig, or I thought he was burning out. TURNS OUT this guy will not stop even when he turns to us and says "There's no way through." What I keep seeing are vapes upon vapes of intensely scrutinized standards that many of us treasure. If this update is one of many on my fifty buck adventure with this incredible person, then I'm still in! Also, I'll be selecting some of the beautiful glass "beasts" in the meantime.
Razhumikin
Well-Known Member
Look, i love RBT a lot, and Im pretty sure i have more RBT pieces than anybody else in the world. Ryan is a great designer for sure, but "intensely scrutinized standards" has never really been Ryan's thing. I have multiple milaanas that are somewhat defective due to how they were built (by Ryan), and this isnt really an uncommon tale for people who have been around RBT for long enough. Ryan also has a long history of saying hes going to do something, and then going into hystrionics about it and sending long emails saying about he just needs a few more sales but things dont look good, and then ultimately scrapping it and moving on to something else. He did this with threatening to close RBT to juice sales a bunch of times, and then he did it when he first launched Herbaltherm over 2 years ago (where he made me a board member then shut down the company the next week), and hes doing it again now. This is not about him going through with it despite unimaginable hardship, its really more about the precariousness of his moods. Hes a very nice but fundamentally unreliable guy, and there is a lot of history behind this, I dont say it lightly.
I personally did not think the 2zm would come about, but I do believe in ryans ability to design cool stuff so I paid in. However, this email really shows me that hes just back to his old playbook, so I requested my 50 bucks back. Hopefully he can eventually get his shit together, but it doesnt look like its happening this time.
2pumpchump
Well-Known Member
This said . If I read my email correctly he gives clear instructions to get you refund !
He also started if the project doesn't go through that you will be automatically refund!
It seems we have 2 type of people in this world .
As I said I sent him a email and was waiting on a response ! I never said what my email was about. My email was not asking for a refund it was to shift my money to a current product that I can use in pictures and video to try to up sales.
While everyone else is jumping at the bits for a refund.
Either way my 50 Is in and have left my pocket . So I'm in it to the end meaning the project will have to come to a end for me to request a refund
oddjobold
Vape swap shop
Okay in Ryans email he said he did not want Desktop CEOs to reply, so Ill put my comment here.
The 2ZM is the first design since RBT that I have half wanted to buy.The magic of RBT was always the HSA heater. Its kinda special, and has a lot of potential.
People don't want glass vapes, or dynavap stems. Dynavap is seen as slightly dated now. Glass vapes are too manual, and fragile. I appreciate it's maybe all Ryan can easily produce living in a trailer, without a workshop. However it feels kinda like an exercise in making money or shifting glass stock.
It would be a shame if the 2ZM is canned. I like Ryan, he can keep my $50, 2ZM or not. I have confidence one day he will produce something special again, and if my money helps he can keep it.
The 2ZM is the first design since RBT that I have half wanted to buy.The magic of RBT was always the HSA heater. Its kinda special, and has a lot of potential.
People don't want glass vapes, or dynavap stems. Dynavap is seen as slightly dated now. Glass vapes are too manual, and fragile. I appreciate it's maybe all Ryan can easily produce living in a trailer, without a workshop. However it feels kinda like an exercise in making money or shifting glass stock.
It would be a shame if the 2ZM is canned. I like Ryan, he can keep my $50, 2ZM or not. I have confidence one day he will produce something special again, and if my money helps he can keep it.
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floribud
Well-Known Member
more news on Sunday
2pumpchump
Well-Known Member
Agreed my $50 has been invested and will go wear he see fit
fangorn
Well-Known Member
Thanks @Razhumikin , for sharing
I paid, and added a tip. I was honestly ready to get a vaporizer in 2-3 years, no problem. I will have followed the design changes, supplier problems, backtracking, successes, failures...
I was really planning to leave my money there and not see it again....
but....
yesterday's email showed me that I will be incapable of supporting this project with the mood swings, the threats of abandonment, the calls for help...
and... I clearly don't see how he expected to get another $10,000!!
a member of FC had warned a little earlier, but I'm the type of guy who gives the opportunity to prove himself once, and to draw his conclusions from it.
so I apologize for jumping ship, but I clearly didn't pay to experience a roller coaster vicariously.
It’s already my daily life at work!!!
(the good news for me is that the Vapman station will be the last vape item I plan to buy, even if I will follow a famous artisan/artist from afar)
I don't know what's going to happen in the next few days or month, but I wish Ryan and the team the best!
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Stonedbadger
Well-Known Member
Still waiting on the refund
vapviking
Old & In the Way
"Still"? Has been an interminable day or so?
popitup
Well-Known Member
We're funding R&D at the end of the day. I invested in his attempt. He's a mad scientist and a visionary; it might pan out, it might not.
I don't want to judge the methods to his madness. I do hope he is doing alright during what sounds to be a very stressful time for him.
I don't want to judge the methods to his madness. I do hope he is doing alright during what sounds to be a very stressful time for him.
Jojofernz
Well-Known Member
I’m not too upset but I think myself, I misunderstood what was happening from the beginning. I guess I made the assumption the project already had the funding and was starting, with the $50 buy in from us being the extra cash needed to really have the project underway. So reading that there was a whole 10k needed from sales to even get the ball rolling, was a bit confusing.
Maybe I misread or misinterpreted the initial sign-on but if I had known it was reliant on that 10k of sales prior to starting, may not have been so eager to jump on board. I think timeline given of units could have been possible come July made it seem like once the 100 were reached, this whole thing was in action and underway.
I’m still not too upset, it’s not a lot of money, if anything it’s more upsetting that this project more than likely won’t finish as I really wanted to try the vape!
Wish him the best in his endeavors!
Maybe I misread or misinterpreted the initial sign-on but if I had known it was reliant on that 10k of sales prior to starting, may not have been so eager to jump on board. I think timeline given of units could have been possible come July made it seem like once the 100 were reached, this whole thing was in action and underway.
I’m still not too upset, it’s not a lot of money, if anything it’s more upsetting that this project more than likely won’t finish as I really wanted to try the vape!
Wish him the best in his endeavors!
Razhumikin
Well-Known Member
Yea, I think it was very misleading to say, if i get 100 people onboard I can do this, but then back out even after collecting 5 grand in prepay. I only signed up after the 90 person threshold was reached to try to limit my exposure to it not happening, but I guess im not shocked he didnt decide to go through with it anyway. No response yet to my email from 2 days ago asking for a refund, well see if even that happens lol.
leanpubpackage
Well-Known Member
man…Ryan was ahead of the game with the milaana…but fell way behind with his herbaltherm products. Ball filled stems (hard to clean) and terpcicles (requires skill and carefulness) have already captured the market before he released his versions. I didn’t invest in the 2ZM because it wasn’t anything novel compared to the explosion of portable options since the milaana
Stonedbadger
Well-Known Member
Refund received, I agree with the above I think this project is dead and I wouldn't have signed up knowing he had to sell $10,000 worth of stems ect, but good luck to those continuing
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bestvaping
Well-Known Member
If there's a small chance that this project will see the light of day, personally I'd rather leave my money there, because in any case, if in a few months the project fails, the repayment will be automatic .. and then .. talking about past mistakes won't make things go any further. I think Ryan needs our support now, and it's not by asking for a refund (for fear of losing the money? or impatience, incomprehension?) that the project will succeed. Let's not forget that crowdfunding was also a way of carrying out market research to see if it was viable, so no, I'm not surprised. I agree with him, because if the number of subscribers doesn't increase, it's unlikely that he'll be able to make a living from it. The aim of a business is to prosper, not to stagnate on a hundred members. In any case, I wish him all the best in the future and thank him for all his contributions.
vapviking
Old & In the Way
I think I can go on another month, find out if the Hail Mary comes through.
I expect that If the project fails, my fifty bucks will come back to me. Hey, maybe not...
I really won't complain, as I was a winner in the giveaway! I received this really nicely made 3tm cooling unit. I had no idea what it even was, so I did watch a video about it.
My first move was to open it incorrectly and let about 30 glass balls dance around the kitchen counter and floor. That won't happen again!
It is made to be used with Dynavap (and other stuff similar size). I have none of those! So far though, I was able to mount it atop the MiniVap and try a few bowls.
It did work really, really well, I must say! My other 'best method' with MV has been a nice GVB U-hook, dimpled, with glass beads, and this 3tm does as good a job, as well as being far smaller -- and bullet-proof! It has so much thermal mass in the SS and beads that, in my use, it barely got warm on its outside...
Nice cool, smooth vapor, what else can I say?
As I don't have a dynavap and not interested in torch vapes, I never would have thought to purchase the 3tm, but glad I've had this opportunity!
Edit, add
If the 3tm had a proper adapter, it could be used on any device with say, a 14mm wpa on it, making it more universal.
I expect that If the project fails, my fifty bucks will come back to me. Hey, maybe not...
I really won't complain, as I was a winner in the giveaway! I received this really nicely made 3tm cooling unit. I had no idea what it even was, so I did watch a video about it.
My first move was to open it incorrectly and let about 30 glass balls dance around the kitchen counter and floor. That won't happen again!
It is made to be used with Dynavap (and other stuff similar size). I have none of those! So far though, I was able to mount it atop the MiniVap and try a few bowls.
It did work really, really well, I must say! My other 'best method' with MV has been a nice GVB U-hook, dimpled, with glass beads, and this 3tm does as good a job, as well as being far smaller -- and bullet-proof! It has so much thermal mass in the SS and beads that, in my use, it barely got warm on its outside...
Nice cool, smooth vapor, what else can I say?
As I don't have a dynavap and not interested in torch vapes, I never would have thought to purchase the 3tm, but glad I've had this opportunity!
Edit, add
If the 3tm had a proper adapter, it could be used on any device with say, a 14mm wpa on it, making it more universal.