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Gear D-nail thread

Discussion in 'Concentrates' started by PhotoRider, Oct 30, 2013.

  1. Eatrocks

    Eatrocks Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    384
    The torch sic nail I got works pretty good. Not easy to get a good temp going but I've gotten the hang of it. This versions sic base is smaller and fits perfectly wit a standard Ti cap/dabber. I can cap it and cover the carb and get almost no airflow if the cap is seated right.

    I would like the halo enail sics everyone swears by,
     
  2. ensabbahnur

    ensabbahnur Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    160
    Location:
    Kickin it live in the 775
    There is so much more to it then just capping and bare minimum airflow, its about the perfect/optimal airflow, pressure, temp retention etc etc

    Do you have a flat coil and enail? I picked up a full Sic dish halo setup with v2 cap, as a backup set, during this past sale, Im so certain you'll be satisfied with it, Ill offer it to you now at my cost plus shipping and PayPal
     
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  3. psychonaut

    psychonaut High as fuck

    Messages:
    915
    Location:
    CO
    I recently switched my flat coil directly under my SiC halo instead of below the heater retainer and now it's way hotter than it used to be. I was vaporizing at like 700F+ with the old configuration and now can drop it down to 600F or even lower.

    I guess I should have figured this, but it is surprising that even when it is running for 12+ hours a day that the dish never seemed to pull that heat off of the heater retainer.

    Hope everyone's enjoying their gear :love:
     
    grokit, SamuraiSam, shredder and 2 others like this.
  4. shredder

    shredder Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    821
    I tried the coil under the washer at first too, but quickly changed. I also flattened my coil in a vice to make the dish sit flat on the heater.

    I noticed once after a cleaning and reassembly that the temps were moving all around. An inspection determined that the nail was loose. Tightening (handtight) fixed it.

    Lately I'm liking my rosin at 520F to 550F.
     
  5. SamuraiSam

    SamuraiSam Extraction Technician

    Messages:
    895
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    The improvement you see in heat transfer also correlates into much more accurate registering of the thermocouple to dabbing surface. Without a poor conductor of heat in the way of the coil to dish, the efficient thermal transfer properties of the SiC are able to shine. When you put titanium in between them, you might as well dab on titanium because the Ti 'heat sink' negates the thermal conductive advantages of SiC. It's like dabbing on a Liger, with a giant hunk of titanium in between the dabbing surface and the coil heating / thermocouple measuring temperature totally negating the benefits of the very conductive silicon carbide. Engineering fail.

    If you have dropped your temps significantly and wish to take advantage of the lowest temperature dabbing, now that your heater will respond more quickly to the drop in temperature of a dab, you can really experience some amazing flavors. When you get real low, you'll want to pre-heat the D-nail carb cap, (I set in on the dish while I get my dab ready) because it alone can suck 20-40ºF out of the dish.) Since learned this technique I've been able to drop my temps significantly, about 20-30 degrees for the same concentrate. I am currently dabbing the high-terpene extracts I process down around 430-470ºF, or about 475-525ºF indicated on my PID. The more terpenes, the lower I go. Currently tasting some 17% terp content Dutch Treat live resin and it's working great down at 430 dish temp.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
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  6. ensabbahnur

    ensabbahnur Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    160
    Location:
    Kickin it live in the 775
    I don't think you're looking at this correctly at all.

    Any professional chef is going to take a heavy, solid metal base pan over a pressed sheet aluminum walmart special every single time, its just a better cooking experience.

    I say all of this as a HUGE Halo fan, i have both SIC and sapphire and put a ridiculous amount of material through them.

    The titanium mass of the Liger is for keeping you dish temp, quartz, SIC or saph, stable, consistent and hot spot free. Watching the coil power draw on the Halos is like riding lightning, the Ligers are almost flat lines. The properties of SIC are not effected in any way, shape or form by placing it in a heated titanium bucket....or any heated bucket for the matter. The SIC doesn't care if the heat comes from the coil itself or from the large mass of heated metal of the bucket, but it would rather there be a ton of heat than just whats stored in the coil itself. CCA's quality control and business management are definitly questionable at best, but aside from their older carb caps....the engineering is rock solid.

    Dnail SIC Halo setup shows how heated mass benefits the actual sublimation as if you use their V2 cap (which is the best there is for the Halos) without preheating the cap first, your nail is going to drop 20-40 degrees until your coil blasts itself to 100% power for a few seconds trying to right the ship, making things worse. I think they always intended the cap to be preheated as there is no other practical/technical reason to have the cap with that much mass without any fins or heat dissipation mechanism.

    I think it bears repeating yet again, for the Halos its

    Dish
    Coil
    Heater Retainer (large washer)
    Slim Body
    Retaining Nut (small washer)
    Joint Base

    This is based off many pictures from their own website.
     
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  7. SamuraiSam

    SamuraiSam Extraction Technician

    Messages:
    895
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    You are welcome to your opinion, my experience with vaporizing has taught me differently. Any one who cooks can value a consistent heating temperature. Vaporizing concentrates bears very little resemblance to cooking a meal.

    Exactly, because the thermocouple is accurately measuring the temperature drop of the dish and responding to the detected load by increasing its output.

    Do you understand the construction of the heating coil and thermocouple? Do you understand the value of measuring the temperature of the dabbing surface to allow the PID controller to function properly instead of measuring the temperature of the heatsink while the dish on the other side drops in temperature significantly before the heatsink's mass cools down enough for the PID to detect a change in temperature before it can increase heat to transfer the heat back through the heatsink material into the dish?

    Have you used a thermocouple to measure the dish's ∆T during a dab with both heat sink placements to compare the response in temperature? Having tried both, and felt how much hotter the 14mm male joint and heat sink were with the coil in direct contact with the heat sink than with the heater retainer between the sink and coil, and judging by how much lower temperature I can dab at, and pull more pulls off a given sized dab, I am quite comfortable placing my SiC dish directly atop my flat coil :tup: (I would not suggest the same for a Sapphire halo due to how easily the Halo could become over tightened leading to a broken dish).
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2017
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  8. ensabbahnur

    ensabbahnur Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    160
    Location:
    Kickin it live in the 775
    Im not saying its like cooking a MEAL, but absolutely like a single item.

    Unless you're dropping the dab directly on the coil itself, you're not getting accurate temp response, any medium be it dish, or bucket and dish is effecting that.

    I do. Again, its not the temp delta that matters as you'll find it through experience not thermocouples, its how stable it is and more mass is going to equal more stable temps, period. your COIL temp may be lower a few degrees with a Halo, but dish temp is dish temp is dish temp is dish temp and I'm not arguing any of that anyways as I've said the dish IS SUPPOSED TO SIT ON THE COIL IN DNAILS SETUP. Im not saying one or the other is better, Im simply defending the Liger and correcting, or maybe clarifying your thoughts, as i see you've edited your post a bit.
     
    Shooby likes this.
  9. StormyPinkness

    StormyPinkness Rhymenocerous ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ

    Messages:
    1,676
    Location:
    California
    Wow, I stopped going lower at 520f on my dish, I'll have to try taking it down some more.
     
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  10. Shooby

    Shooby Addicted to Flavor!

    Messages:
    153
    Location:
    SoCal - OC
    I am currently down to 483F reading on my controller on my SiC dish. I sat at 525F for a while but wanted to see how low i can go. I have noticed much smoother hits at lower temps. Next week, I will go down to 475F.
     
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  11. SamuraiSam

    SamuraiSam Extraction Technician

    Messages:
    895
    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    My usage of the Liger, usage of D-nail Halo/Slim series in multiple configurations, has lead me to my conclusions. Not sure if FC lets you view edit history, but I did edit my post (I'm a habitual post-editor) to include more detail about specifically why I get better results without a barrier of less-conductive material between the thermocouple and a fantastically thermally conductive material, as well as add a caution about the easier potential to over-tighten sapphire Halos. I do not own a Sapphire halo myself yet, but thanks to BC Bubbleman I was able to to take many, many dabs off Sapphire and hope to upgrade my setup to that within the next few months. As with all the products I've discussed- Liger, Halo Quartz, SiC, and Sapphire, I was fortunate enough to "try before I bought", and that's why I ended up with the setup I use today.

    I understand the thinking behind the giant heat sink of the Liger, I just do not agree with it. We shall have to agree to disagree about the engineering of the different pieces, as none of my experiences or understanding of material properties will lead me to change my opinion on this topic.

    Happy dabbing!
     
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  12. ensabbahnur

    ensabbahnur Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    160
    Location:
    Kickin it live in the 775
    So then what are your thoughts on the mass of the V2 cap setup and that when you add the mass of the intended cap, the nail drops to the point you're effecting you vapor negatively? It seems Dnail is agreeing with me that heated mass makes for, if not "better" vaporization, easier, more stable, more consistent draws. Again, I'm not saying the Halo needs the retainer on the coil, because they already use the massive cap.....if the cap was not intended to be a heated mass to help keep the heat stable, they would have made it with less metal....there is no other reason to make the cap with that much solid mass....none. I may not have the science on lock to a point i can get my point across but money is money and business is business and dnail is too smart to be that dumb.

    I don't feel this is a matter of style or opinions, I'm pretty sure this is basic thermodynamics. since all I'm arguing is the mass of the Liger is anything but a failure of engineering as its the exact same principal as a cistern, a capacitor, a network buffer, etc etc, its not storing a temperature, its storing a volume of heat. I may not know how to correctly explain my thought but if adding an intermediate material alter the temperature in a negative way, i doubt they would have made clad pans and cooking surfaces as the high end solution. You say dabs are not like cooking but i challenge you to watch people working with sugars and caramels and tell me that isn't 99.9999999999999999999% exactly like the crap we go through working with and dabbing waxes and oils. Ive filled the buckets of both ligers to the brim, and caused quite a mess.....no delayed temp drop on the coil...whatsoever. If I'm following your thought correctly, and i may not be, you say the SIC should somehow suck the heat from the ti and will cool it down in some appreciable level, and that somehow makes the coil fire up after the fact to heat the ti, but that just is not what happens, i can record the Hex nails temp charts to prove it.


    TLDR version

    Both dnail and CCA know wtf they are doing, its the exact same song just done to different beats.
     
    SamuraiSam likes this.
  13. shredder

    shredder Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    821
    All I know about liger is what I've read here, mostly in the Liger thread. And it's enough for me to stay away. IMHO a lot of small vape companies have excellent customer service. And some don't. To me even if the product is great, if the CS isn't there, that alone is enough to guide me away.

    I understand start up difficulties, but as a customer, that ain't my problem. Not a fan of pay now, get later at a undetermined time, or crowd funding either.

    When I started researching enails I read the relavent threads. That made my dnail choice easy, and like their thread implies, the CS (and the product) have been excellent.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2017
    Gigsabits53 likes this.
  14. ensabbahnur

    ensabbahnur Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    160
    Location:
    Kickin it live in the 775

    Just to clarify, those issues with CCA, in my experience, have been rectified, you now, FINALLY, get what you order, within the stated time frame. It sucks that it took quite literally 11 solid months for them to get their stuff together. Ive had decent communications with them, starting about 3-4 months ago, around the same time the website was overhauled.
     
    shredder likes this.
  15. Shooby

    Shooby Addicted to Flavor!

    Messages:
    153
    Location:
    SoCal - OC
    CAA website says the obsidian is in stock.

    230 items left in stock for Flat coil Liger
    233 items left in stock for 20mm Liger

    And nobody has tried one?
     
  16. shredder

    shredder Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    821
    Who knows? This is the dnail thread, lol.
     
    sweetherb likes this.
  17. Shooby

    Shooby Addicted to Flavor!

    Messages:
    153
    Location:
    SoCal - OC
    HAHA.. Good point.
     
    shredder likes this.
  18. nosmoking

    nosmoking Fogmonger

    Messages:
    1,180
    Location:
    DC Area
    I enjoyed the discussion between you and @shredder and wanted to add that if someone wants the DNail Halo to work more like the Liger, as far as the extra heat retainage goes there is a solution. @NewVape710 has a wraparound that fits the DNail and a coil cover that will cover your 20mm nail. Most are probably using their Halos with a flat coil sitting on top of the heat retainer like I do, however the wraparound and 20mm coil with coil cover would have to provide a lot more heat retention and would be much more likely to decrease temp drops.
     
  19. StormyPinkness

    StormyPinkness Rhymenocerous ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ

    Messages:
    1,676
    Location:
    California
    I'm getting a second bubbler so I can have one for flower and one for concentrate. I don't mind flowery water and waxy water, but when they're together blarg. I wanted to get one where the 18mm joint is behind the bubbler instead of straight down into it like my current one. If anyone sees a problem with this one for concentrates/d-nail or could recommend a better one for under $40 I'd appreciate the info, otherwise I'm liking this one.
    https://www.dhgate.com/store/product/d021-glass-water-smoking-color-pipe-with/184390558.html
    [​IMG]
     
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  20. PoopMachine

    PoopMachine Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,524
    Location:
    Somewhere Jus Lyke Compton
    Im using the 20mm wrap around with the Dnail SIC adapter. Its pretty awesome.

    I dont have the heat shield on that setup. I need to order one next time I expand my Flower Pot arsenal.
     
    invertedisdead and nosmoking like this.
  21. Baron23

    Baron23 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,937
    Sorry, I can't agree with that. No matter the nature of the material, if it is at constant temp and in good contact with another material (SiC in this case), then thermal transfer will be defined by the characteristics of the receiving material (the dish). I find that my Liger SiC provides a dab surface temp much more aligned with set point temp than my D-nail SiC Halo.

    As some may remember, when I got my D-nail Halo I found much greater delta's between the set point (coil temp, if you will) and dab surface temp. I presented my info to D-nail and they shipped me a new coil. It works better than the old coil and the deltas have closed about 50 degrees F, but still not as good of a correlation to set point as my Liger 2.0 SiC. Below are my previous findings with a couple of added data points for the new flat coil.

    [​IMG]
     
  22. biohacker

    biohacker Fucking Combustion Since 2006

    Messages:
    5,870
    Hello all. I'm just curious why there isn't more love for the Dnail Lotus Flower Adapter here? I just bought the FlowerPot from newvape, but i've had my eye on this one for a while now and am curious.
     
    StormyPinkness likes this.
  23. StormyPinkness

    StormyPinkness Rhymenocerous ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ

    Messages:
    1,676
    Location:
    California
    There's a lotus thread here:
    http://fuckcombustion.com/threads/d-nail-lotus.25097/

    I'm curious about it too. There's only 1 youtube video on it last time I checked, very weird. I tried to check it out before I got my flowerpot.
     
    biohacker likes this.
  24. Shooby

    Shooby Addicted to Flavor!

    Messages:
    153
    Location:
    SoCal - OC
    Is the flowerpot worth it? I was looking at it but when i add it all together, im at like $200.

    I would have to buy a 20mm coil as all my coils are flat coils. A mininail 20mm coil is $70 too.
     
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  25. biohacker

    biohacker Fucking Combustion Since 2006

    Messages:
    5,870
    I've only tried one, but have one on its way, I paid closer to $350 altogether with some accessories. So i'd have to say hell yeah! But now i'm super curious about the Lotus as well as the errlectric herbnail. Damn VAS.
     
    StormyPinkness likes this.

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